Are Christians given empowerment to do all the works Jesus did? Bethel and their resurrection claims

[7seasrekeyed]

Bethel is not "proved to be in gross error" by this situation. The only thing that was proved is that the declaration was erroneous; they did not claim, according to you, that they would resurrect the child, but that God would. I don't see any connection between the declaration and the alleged claim. Error in one area certainly doesn't prove error in another.

I don't follow Bethel or Johnson, and I have heard conflicting reports of their faithfulness to Scripture. If you're going to use examples from their own material, providing citations or links shows responsible reporting. Otherwise, you're just spouting rumours. Telling people to do their own research is not adequate when you are claiming they are in "gross error"; provide the evidence.

Conflating the people of Bethel with other charismatics and their claims is also irresponsible. God will not judge Bethel for the errors of other charismatics, nor should we. As Jesus says, "Stop looking at mere appearances, and make a right judgement."

well exactly

having looked into Bethel myself, I do not consider all their practices to be biblical at all, but this practice of some folks painting with the biggest brush they can find, over any and every person who is not exactly as are they, is really boring at this point. and the op in this case, is particularly adept at this since he is a hyper Calvinist...that is, beliefs that are so far out there that even mainstream Calvinism goes 'uh...nope'...his taglines will greatly benefit the uneducated as to his ideologies and present condemnation of all who do not praise him for his ability to create a god after his own heart

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I'd like to add one other possible motives for charismatics.

To promote their own superior spirituality...it's a form of elitism.

There are those who are "spirit-filled" and those who are not, according to many of them.

They are the ones who are "spirit-filled", and there are those who are not.

Many feed on this.

how is it you think you are any different with your elitist Calvinism?

you are a cessationist so what the hee haw else would we expect out of you?

you deny the Holy Spirit in anyone but yourself and are quite content to do so

thing is, you are the flip side of errant Charismatics. you do not allow for God to be involved in the present but assume He has passed on the baton to cessationists...that includes the king of anti-Holy Spirit, MacArthur

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I have asked for healing for various conditions. It is God's sovereign will that they remain unhealed.

In fact, his glory is displayed more powerful through their weakness.

Do you guys ever think about that? How God takes the weak and those society deems as of less value, and manifests his glory through them more powerfully?

So that there is no boasting?

not at all. not at all

you constantly boast of what you believe and very often in terms that I do not at all consider to be of any variety I would expect a believer to produce

you cannot deny God on the one hand and then say He did not answer your prayers

God does not say yes to every single thing we may ask, but He sure does not turn a deaf ear either so that we depend more on Paul's life experience than our own with God

it seems your conclusion is that people who DO have prayers answered in a way that suggests God actually heard them, are going to boast about it

thanking God is somehow boasting? giving testimony is somehow boasting?

there is also such a thing as false humility and reasoning against faith that creates the impression that a person must be superior in their belief BECAUSE God never answered them

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I pray that you experience and endure suffering, because it is part of the experience of every real Christian. Suffering is a tool that God uses in the process of conforming one to the image of Christ.

and we suffer why exactly?

the doctrine of sin is mostly excluded in Calvinistic teachings because it does not portray the will of God in a way that suggests we have no choice

I will leave it to those acquainted with suffering because of very bad life choices to decipher the above

suffering is allowed but obedience is first desired

and yes we also suffer for what others do, but as Joseph said, you meant if for evil but God used it for good

I have certainly lived that last line and still struggle at times with the evil even a so called Christian can manufacture

but it was never the will of God for them to do what they do

they had a choice just like I do for forgiveness

 

[NayborBear]

Here's the problem:

You ridiculed me for stating that Jesus raised himself up.

I pointed you to the fact that Jesus said it himself in John 2:18-22.

Instead of admitting that you have a defective Christology, and a bad understanding of the Triune God, you come up with some other response.

By the way, I think a defective Christology is the starting point for charismatic/Word of Faith theology. Not that you are either (I don't know), but a defective Christology is the starting point.

So many of those guys think that basically, they are the equivalent of Jesus. In fact, they call themselves "little gods". They have distorted the biblical teaching that man was created in the image of God, in order to exalt themselves. I don't really see how Mormons are much worse than some charismatics and Word of Faith guys.

The Scriptures you mention are talking about the fact that Jesus didn't operate independent from God as man. As man, he did not use his divine prerogatives to accomplish his works, and his teaching came from God.

However, this is not the same as to say that Jesus was the Father.

But, getting back to my original point, you basically said my remark that Jesus raised himself was "excrement". I provided Scripture to prove it. My position is coherent due to the nature of the Triune God.

I was in the "hopes" that saying Jesus raised himself up by his own will, and a relentless repeating of the same, might show just how misleading this can be.
I even showed that Jesus never "taught" that, save that which the Father gave Him to teach, and that some times when Jesus was teaching? It wasn't Jesus talking at all. But, the Father that was dwelling in Him.

I still contend, that Jesus had "not a hand", being raised from the dead. It was ALL the Spirit of God!
Now, did the Spirit of God dwell inside Jesus? Yes!
Did the Spirit of God think it "robbery" that Jesus would consider Himself equal with God? No!
But, as you stated, Jesus is NOT His own Father!

So, it is not I, who is peddling a "false" Christology..........whatever that means!
Believing Him still sitting at the right side of the Father at His throne.

And by stating that Jesus alone with no aid, is a "tickling of ears" message, that is more detrimental to the "Government" of the Kingdom of God, and Kingdom of Light, which Jesus of Nazareth still bares on His shoulders, then it is helpful.

Jez my $0.02!

 

[Guojing]

I don't have kids, and I'm not God. However, I recognize the fleshly appeal.

You are looking at things from a fleshly perspective, which is the epitome of charismatic theology.

You cannot see how suffering is used by God to conform humans to his image.

You don't realized Jesus used the same analogy?

Matthew 7:11

Luke 11:13

 

[Lightskin]

Translation: I can't answer this guy's arguments, so I am going to accuse him of being a Pharisee. He is correct in that my view is anti-biblical, because the Bible teaches that suffering is a normative part of the life of a true believer, but I don't want to face that, so I won't read the Bible and instead will discount his words and promote the idea that his biblical knowledge is worthless. I'll accuse him of being a close-minded Pharisee, even though the reality is that I'm close-minded and resist his convictions on this issue. I will not acknowledge that God uses suffering to expose my continuing indwelling sinfulness.

By the way, faith is trusting God and obeying him regardless of life's circumstances. Faith is trusting God and obeying Him, despite how I feel, because God promises a good result. But this good result may not be realized until the resurrection.

Translation: You simply don’t have the love of God in you. You’re not happy unless you’re spewing unadulterated misery upon others.

Overcoming suffering is part of the Gospel. Trials and tribulations will occur, but they are blips on the screen compared to the overwhelming joy that comes with knowing Jesus saves us and our being empowered by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Lightskin]

When therefore he was raised from the dead

You literally quoted Scripture stating that Jesus WAS raised from the dead and yet you’re arguing that He raised Himself. No need to insult you; your arrogant stupidity speaks for itself.

 

[Ruby123]

Why would this thread be discouraging us to believe and do the works of Jesus, shouldn't we be encouraging each other to build ourselves up and step out in faith to do what he asks us to do.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You literally quoted Scripture stating that Jesus WAS raised from the dead and yet you’re arguing that He raised Himself. No need to insult you; your arrogant stupidity speaks for itself.

Both are true if you understand the Trinity.

If you're a non-Trinitarian, you might claim there's a contradiction. I am not.

Do you think that 1/3 of the Triune God was dead, and that God changed somehow in the death of Christ?

Now that's heretical.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Translation: You simply don’t have the love of God in you. You’re not happy unless you’re spewing unadulterated misery upon others.

Overcoming suffering is part of the Gospel. Trials and tribulations will occur, but they are blips on the screen compared to the overwhelming joy that comes with knowing Jesus saves us and our being empowered by the Holy Spirit.

Translation: You are providing good arguments, so I am going to dismiss you as an unspiritual, hateful person.

By the way, it's not me that allows suffering; it is God.

He allows it because it serves his purpose and his glory. He is in control.

For the believer, enduring suffering proves that his faith is legitimate, and that he truly loves God and looks forward, in faith, to the eternal reward. He realizes that suffering conforms him to the image of Christ.

For the unbeliever, suffering can lead to the person's conversion, as he turns to God and his sovereignty over hopeless situations. It can also be an expression of God's judgment on the individual.

Either way, suffering is decreed by God, at the very least by permitting it. In fact, he causes it directly in some instances.

However, that doesn't meet the charismatic/Word of Faith expectations of their god.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You don't realized Jesus used the same analogy?

Matthew 7:11

Luke 11:13

Do you realize that suffering is part of the "good things" that God gives to believers?

Read James 1.

I realize that charismatics/Word of Faith people are hermeneutically challenged, but it is clearly teaching that suffering is part of the "good gifts" that God gives his children.

Read James 1:1-18. Don't disconnect the trials from the good gifts. All trials, including health issues, are a gift from God.

Trials of all types conform one to the image of Christ, and cause the dross to float to the surface as they are being purified.

Job said:

Job 2:10 But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

Read the whole Bible, not just the selected charismatic/Word of Faith proof texts. The thrust of Scripture is clear.

By the way, you are twisting my words. I don't claim that God inflicts continual suffering on believers to sanctify them. But, he does use suffering to sanctify them. Some believers with chronic illnesses do experience constant suffering, though, and are still joyful. And it's a powerful witness to their faiths.

In the Western world, though, people want comfort, wealth, etcetera and that is their real desire, not a relationship with God. The genuineness of their faith is demonstrated over time.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I was in the "hopes" that saying Jesus raised himself up by his own will, and a relentless repeating of the same, might show just how misleading this can be.
I even showed that Jesus never "taught" that, save that which the Father gave Him to teach, and that some times when Jesus was teaching? It wasn't Jesus talking at all. But, the Father that was dwelling in Him.

I still contend, that Jesus had "not a hand", being raised from the dead. It was ALL the Spirit of God!
Now, did the Spirit of God dwell inside Jesus? Yes!
Did the Spirit of God think it "robbery" that Jesus would consider Himself equal with God? No!
But, as you stated, Jesus is NOT His own Father!

So, it is not I, who is peddling a "false" Christology..........whatever that means!
Believing Him still sitting at the right side of the Father at His throne.

And by stating that Jesus alone with no aid, is a "tickling of ears" message, that is more detrimental to the "Government" of the Kingdom of God, and Kingdom of Light, which Jesus of Nazareth still bares on His shoulders, then it is helpful.

Jez my $0.02!

Are you a non-Trinitarian?

I have explained how Jesus, as the second person of the Triune God, could not cease to live (die) in one sense, because he is YHVH.

YHVH does not experience change. In other words, God cannot die.

However, since Jesus has a dual nature (being both God and man), he was dead in terms of his humanity, but alive in terms of is deity.

So, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead, in terms of his humanity.

Pretty simple to me.

I think there are some who believe the Triune God was torn apart at Jesus' death. However, this is impossible because God doesn't change.

Did the man Jesus die? Yes, and he was raised. Did the second Person of the Triune God die? No.

And the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead.

This is Trinitarian theology, and it has Scriptural support. John 2 says that Jesus raised his own body (temple) up. Other Scriptures say the Father raised Jesus up, and the Holy Spirit raised Jesus up.

This is perfectly coherent given that a person believes the Trinity doctrine. If they don't, then they may have issues with it. That's why I asked.

The implication of your position is that one of the Persons of the Triune God died, therefore God changed. Immutability of God is one of his fundamental attributes. God didn't change.

I don't know what heresy this is, but there's probably a name for it.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Both are true if you understand the Trinity.

If you're a non-Trinitarian, you might claim there's a contradiction. I am not.

Do you think that 1/3 of the Triune God was dead, and that God changed somehow in the death of Christ?

Now that's heretical.

Here's an article that some might find interesting:

https://www.ligonier.org/blog/it-accurate-say-god-died-cross/

It is perfectly coherent to claim that Jesus raised his own self up, since he is one person of the Triune God.

God did not die during the Incarnation. Jesus died in his humanity. YHVH didn't die.

Yes, Jesus is God and glorified man. He has a dual nature. There is a distinction between his human nature and his divine nature.

However, as God he could not die.

So, as John 2 indicates, Jesus raised himself up. The Father raised him, and the Holy Spirit raised him.

This is actually one of the classical proofs of the Trinity.

It seems like some think Jesus was merely a "shell" that the Father spoke through. That actually would not be a Trinitarian view.

I might be mistaken on their position, though.

Anyways, this is a side conversation and not pertinent to the main topic.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Why would this thread be discouraging us to believe and do the works of Jesus, shouldn't we be encouraging each other to build ourselves up and step out in faith to do what he asks us to do.

The discouragement is to claim that you can resurrect the dead when you can't, and that it is appropriate to encourage others to do that.

I haven't seen a single human being who can do the miracles Jesus did. Therefore, I don't believe they exist. Healings do occur through the response of God to the prayers of his people, but I don't believe that any one man heals others today as a gift.

Nor do I believe that healing is a guarantee, and that suffering serves no purpose. Scripture doesn't claim any such thing.

Faith is obeying God even when we don't feel like it because we know God promises a good result. Faith is exhibited through obedience to the commands of Scripture. Faith is exhibited by perseverance even when life's circumstances never get better.

Faith is not something a man conjures up in order to force a miserly God into healing him. Faith is not demanding a particular outcome to a difficult situation, but rather is being content in all difficult situations without hating God for it. Faith is realizing that suffering conforms one to the image of Christ, and exposes the evil, selfish, rebellion that still remains in the person's heart.

 

[Guojing]

Do you realize that suffering is part of the "good things" that God gives to believers?

By the way, you are twisting my words. I don't claim that God inflicts continual suffering on believers to sanctify them. But, he does use suffering to sanctify them. Some believers with chronic illnesses do experience constant suffering, though, and are still joyful. And it's a powerful witness to their faiths.

In the Western world, though, people want comfort, wealth, etcetera and that is their real desire, not a relationship with God. The genuineness of their faith is demonstrated over time.

I am asking you a simple question, if an earthly father who loves his kids will want his kids to be healed at all times, what makes you think your heavenly father loves his kids less?

 

[preacher4truth]

You literally quoted Scripture stating that Jesus WAS raised from the dead and yet you’re arguing that He raised Himself. No need to insult you; your arrogant stupidity speaks for itself.

He did both:

"For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” John 10:17-18

 

[preacher4truth]

Bethel is not "proved to be in gross error" by this situation. The only thing that was proved is that the declaration was erroneous; they did not claim, according to you, that they would resurrect the child, but that God would. I don't see any connection between the declaration and the alleged claim. Error in one area certainly doesn't prove error in another

It was most certainly a gross error, taking the name of the LORD in vain, declaring falsely that God would do something, lying false prophets who have disgraced his name bringing ridicule. My have we slipped in our thinking, defense and honor of His name. No need to defend this in any sense, and yes, you are defending it. You’ve then also made a gross error and need to change your mind on this.

 

[Dino246]

It was most certainly a gross error, taking the name of the LORD in vain, declaring falsely that God would do something, lying false prophets who have disgraced his name bringing ridicule. My have we slipped in our thinking, defense and honor of His name. No need to defend this in any sense, and yes, you are defending it. You’ve then also made a gross error and need to change your mind on this.

Overreact much?

There is nothing wrong with pointing out an incorrect line of reasoning. There is also nothing wrong with defending a wrongdoer against fallacious claims. When it is acceptable to use bad or irrelevant arguments to accuse and judge those who are guilty of wrongdoing, that same bad logic is used to accuse and judge the innocent.

By your logic, a man who committed fraud can be charged for murder, and you'd throw his attorney in prison with him. I'm glad God is the Judge, and not you.

 

[preacher4truth]

Overreact much?

There is nothing wrong with pointing out an incorrect line of reasoning. There is also nothing wrong with defending a wrongdoer against fallacious claims. When it is acceptable to use bad or irrelevant arguments to accuse and judge those who are guilty of wrongdoing, that same bad logic is used to accuse and judge the innocent.

By your logic, a man who committed fraud can be charged for murder, and you'd throw his attorney in prison with him. I'm glad God is the Judge, and not you.

Not at all. The one overreacting and yet defending himself is you. You're in gross error. Spend more time in prayer and the word than on here arguing and quarreling.

You were way out of line, and still are. Bethel took the LORD's name in vain, blasphemed it in the world, and you're defending that as if saying God would do something is less of a crime than if Bethel said it would do something. In all your arguing on here your mind is cluttered, and you're out smarting yourself.

My prayer is you own up and repent.

Go ahead, get your last word in, defend yourself, you have to be right, always.