Are Christians given empowerment to do all the works Jesus did? Bethel and their resurrection claims

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Are all believers, individually, empowered to perform all the miracles of Christ at will?

  • Yes, all believers are empowered to perform all the miracles of Christ at will.

    Votes: 8 32.0%
  • No, but some believers are empowered to perform all the miracles of Christ at will

    Votes: 2 8.0%
  • No, but collective prayer of the saints and individuals sometimes result in miracles

    Votes: 14 56.0%
  • No, and collective prayer of the saints and individuals never result in miracles

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 1 4.0%

  • Total voters
    25

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
14,957
8,066
113
Not at all. The one overreacting and yet defending himself is you. You're in gross error. Spend more time in prayer and the word than on here arguing and quarreling.

You were way out of line, and still are. Bethel took the LORD's name in vain, blasphemed it in the world, and you're defending that as if saying God would do something is less of a crime than if Bethel said it would do something. In all your arguing on here your mind is cluttered, and you're out smarting yourself.

My prayer is you own up and repent.

Go ahead, get your last word in, defend yourself, you have to be right, always.
Yawn...
 

Moses_Young

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
839
432
63
Not at all. The one overreacting and yet defending himself is you. You're in gross error. Spend more time in prayer and the word than on here arguing and quarreling.

You were way out of line, and still are. Bethel took the LORD's name in vain, blasphemed it in the world, and you're defending that as if saying God would do something is less of a crime than if Bethel said it would do something. In all your arguing on here your mind is cluttered, and you're out smarting yourself.

My prayer is you own up and repent.

Go ahead, get your last word in, defend yourself, you have to be right, always.
Perhaps it is semantics, but I understood there were at least some individuals associated with Bethel that were prophesying that God would raise the little girl from death (in this time). If this is true, I agree that most Christians (and certainly God) would view such as blasphemy.

I would be interested to understand how others believe it not to be blasphemy, false prophesy, etc. etc. In Israelite times, such was a capital crime.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
Perhaps it is semantics, but I understood there were at least some individuals associated with Bethel that were prophesying that God would raise the little girl from death (in this time). If this is true, I agree that most Christians (and certainly God) would view such as blasphemy.

I would be interested to understand how others believe it not to be blasphemy, false prophesy, etc. etc. In Israelite times, such was a capital crime.

what Bethel and others like them do is not actually blasphemy...if you understand the word

the op is given to using superlative definitions for things he disagrees with for the effect as much as for his exaggerated view of his own religiosity

are they in error? I certainly believe that they are regarding certain aspects, however to say they are blaspheming is not accurate and the only way to make it so, is to falsely accuse them

which is what the op is very very good at doing

as what they say will happen does not happen, it is certainly obvious God did not say and did not do

should that give people pause? of course it should

however, the accusation they are blaspheming is just as false

when you have an agenda, and the op most certainly does, you have to continually flog all and sundry that you find fault with

personally, I find great fault with cessationism and all the various attacks on the gifts of the Holy Spirit

I would be interested to understand how others believe it not to be blasphemy, false prophesy, etc. etc. In Israelite times, such was a capital crime.
false accusation is equally bad no matter the direction from which it stems

if you are not a Calvinist. the perhaps acquaint yourself with all the accusations hurled by the op. read his taglines...or signature as it is referred to in this forum

do you worship a false deity whom you wish to have emasculated? if you believe as does the op, then perhaps you agree with his flagrant and abusive language hurled at people who are Calvinists

I only know of one way to be saved and it is not following the route penned by Calvin

it is through the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ

but look at what the op says...who does he follow? seriously pay attention and think about it and remember that blasphemy is actually saying the work of the Holy Spirit is the work of the devil
 

Moses_Young

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
839
432
63
what Bethel and others like them do is not actually blasphemy...if you understand the word

the op is given to using superlative definitions for things he disagrees with for the effect as much as for his exaggerated view of his own religiosity

are they in error? I certainly believe that they are regarding certain aspects, however to say they are blaspheming is not accurate and the only way to make it so, is to falsely accuse them

which is what the op is very very good at doing

as what they say will happen does not happen, it is certainly obvious God did not say and did not do

should that give people pause? of course it should

however, the accusation they are blaspheming is just as false

when you have an agenda, and the op most certainly does, you have to continually flog all and sundry that you find fault with

personally, I find great fault with cessationism and all the various attacks on the gifts of the Holy Spirit



false accusation is equally bad no matter the direction from which it stems

if you are not a Calvinist. the perhaps acquaint yourself with all the accusations hurled by the op. read his taglines...or signature as it is referred to in this forum

do you worship a false deity whom you wish to have emasculated? if you believe as does the op, then perhaps you agree with his flagrant and abusive language hurled at people who are Calvinists

I only know of one way to be saved and it is not following the route penned by Calvin

it is through the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ

but look at what the op says...who does he follow? seriously pay attention and think about it and remember that blasphemy is actually saying the work of the Holy Spirit is the work of the devil
Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

How is stating that God will raise someone from the dead, and God does not, not taking God's name in vain? It is alleged some have said that God said the dead girl would be raised. Hence the accusation of blasphemy - taking of His Name in vain.
 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
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Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

How is stating that God will raise someone from the dead, and God does not, not taking God's name in vain? It is alleged some have said that God said the dead girl would be raised. Hence the accusation of blasphemy - taking of His Name in vain.
One issue is severity of sin is no longer seen as such. Because of false grace views many see God as a pushover, at our beck and call, domesticated, truncated.

Unfortunately his Name can take a hit and few even bat an eye. But as witnessed in this thread some are more interested in their "name" than his, thus they defend this blasphemous ministry, and will not admit the error and grievous sin.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

How is stating that God will raise someone from the dead, and God does not, not taking God's name in vain? It is alleged some have said that God said the dead girl would be raised. Hence the accusation of blasphemy - taking of His Name in vain.

why do you ignore what I said about blasphemy?

that is the only sin that Jesus stated cannot be forgiven

you do know that even the most sincere Christian on earth can be deceived or very wrong?

that is not blasphemy

and by the way, you did not answer if you were a Calvinist or not
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
One issue is severity of sin is no longer seen as such. Because of false grace views many see God as a pushover, at our beck and call, domesticated, truncated.

Unfortunately his Name can take a hit and few even bat an eye. But as witnessed in this thread some are more interested in their "name" than his, thus they defend this blasphemous ministry, and will not admit the error and grievous sin.

well that has been disproved many times in this very forum

no one has ever stated the nonsense that you attribute to those who disagree with Calvin's teachings

perhaps you need to simply try to stick to what others here have told you over and over again rather than keep up with your denials of what others say here

I have no expectations you will be reasonable in that regard however as you have never given indication that you are capable of reasoning other people also reason . it's Calvin or nothing
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
Instead of avoiding my post Mr Young, address it. otherwise I don't think I can take you seriously. your verse you provided is part of the 10 commandments, yet, there is even more stringent warnings in the NT regarding blasphemy which I tried to get you to see

but of course, actually answering the question of whether or not you are also Calvinist in your leanings would answer better

do you agree with what the op has attached to all his posts?





"7seasrekeyed, post: 4115798, member: 260610"]what Bethel and others like them do is not actually blasphemy...if you understand the word

the op is given to using superlative definitions for things he disagrees with for the effect as much as for his exaggerated view of his own religiosity

are they in error? I certainly believe that they are regarding certain aspects, however to say they are blaspheming is not accurate and the only way to make it so, is to falsely accuse them

which is what the op is very very good at doing

as what they say will happen does not happen, it is certainly obvious God did not say and did not do

should that give people pause? of course it should

however, the accusation they are blaspheming is just as false

when you have an agenda, and the op most certainly does, you have to continually flog all and sundry that you find fault with

personally, I find great fault with cessationism and all the various attacks on the gifts of the Holy Spirit



false accusation is equally bad no matter the direction from which it stems

if you are not a Calvinist. the perhaps acquaint yourself with all the accusations hurled by the op. read his taglines...or signature as it is referred to in this forum

do you worship a false deity whom you wish to have emasculated? if you believe as does the op, then perhaps you agree with his flagrant and abusive language hurled at people who are Calvinists

I only know of one way to be saved and it is not following the route penned by Calvin

it is through the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ

but look at what the op says...who does he follow? seriously pay attention and think about it and remember that blasphemy is actually saying the work of the Holy Spirit is the work of the devil
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,679
1,906
113
I am asking you a simple question, if an earthly father who loves his kids will want his kids to be healed at all times, what makes you think your heavenly father loves his kids less?
No.

He uses trials and suffering to conform the believer to the image of Christ.

This is a clear Scriptural teaching.

But, humans don't like this teaching because it requires that they depart from their Play-doh god that conforms to their expectations.

Just so we are clear, God blesses his people, too. He blesses them primarily with his presence and eternal life. He also blesses them with material things and good health when it is his sovereign will, too.

It depends on his will for a particular individual and their given season in life, etcetera.

Like I have said, suffering is actually a blessing if one doesn't have a Sesame Street, pre-school theology. James 1 tells us this..he talks about trials and then proceeds to say that every good gift comes from the Father of lights (God).

Suffering reduces one's hope in the things of this world, and exposes one's heart to the remaining indwelling sinfulness. It is pretty easy to be content in the midst of plenty and comfort, but take that away and see what happens. That is part of why ancient Israel grumbled..they experienced hardship. What should that have told them? That their hearts still were hard and corrupt.

Many probably thought, during times of plenty, that their hearts were in fine shape before God. Yet, in reality, their hearts were corrupt but they did not know it and were not concerned with it because all their desires were being met.

This is part of why the prosperity gospel is a bunch of nonsense. :)
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
3,165
3,659
113
Oh? Is it a competition? The magnitude of faith competition?
Congratulations on asking the dumbest question of the month. Do you want to try to outdo yourself? I know it would be difficult but I’m confident you can do it.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
1,863
1,411
113
Bethel took the LORD's name in vain, blasphemed it in the world
yes here in news it was about that raising someone back to life. it didnt happen and now everyoen is making fun of christianity and God.

thats the method to be used, get some deceived heretics to make false prophecies and claims and make a big media circus then nothing happens and God's name is laughed at among the gentiles which is what the satanic media loves. just like happened with that false prophet harold camping who destroyed many lifes with his fake prophecy people quit their jobs sold their houses to spread his lie. all these guys are deceivers anyway who cares about them dont know why people give these treehuggers any attention. this also proves many professing christians are absolute retar*ds like legitimate slow in the head. and this is coming from someone who suffered head trauma and i havent been the same ever since. but anyone who falls for a guy like harold camping is simply so stupid they deserve to be deceived i dont know how they can think and breathe at the same time. i honestly feel like it, but i still cant help but feel bad for them, because i know they probably had good intentions.

but also maybe its not about intellectual. maybe its spiritual. that some people dont receive truth so God is teh one giving them over to strong delusion and makes them fall for these false prophets? thats also possible. i think its both.
 

Kim82

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
1,310
1,136
113
, you become their savior by absorbing their condition? Are you Jesus?

Doesn't that give you bragging rights?
Amen. Psalms 55:22 Give your burdens to the LORD, and he will take care of you. He will not permit the godly to slip and fall.

So, suffering actually exposes the fallen nature of man, which can lay dormant even within believers, if they never experience suffering.
It is just like some people to say, "I could never do such a thing!!" Come to find themselves in certain situation and they end up doing worst. I like to say of myself, "except for the grace of God there go I."
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,679
1,906
113
He did both:

"For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” John 10:17-18
Good one..I didn't think of that particular Scripture..

If one understands the Trinity properly, such verses are not an issue :)
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
3,165
3,659
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Is that biblical? Or are we to say, "Lord I pray that you don't give me more than I can bear"?
What’s not biblical about asking God to protect you and keep you happy and healthy? What’s wrong with some of you people?
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,679
1,906
113
I am asking you a simple question, if an earthly father who loves his kids will want his kids to be healed at all times, what makes you think your heavenly father loves his kids less?
God sees the end from the beginning.

Man does not.

Suffering is part of how God conforms the believer to the image of Jesus.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,679
1,906
113
What’s not biblical about asking God to protect you and keep you happy and healthy? What’s wrong with some of you people?
There's nothing wrong with asking God to protect and bless you.

However, it is wrong to demand or declare it, and to fail to acknowledge that suffering serves God's purpose of conforming the believer to the image of Christ.

Therefore, if someone is a believer and they are in a wheelchair for the rest of their lives, despite repeated prayer, God is perfectly aware of it, and it serves his sovereign purpose for conforming the person to the image of Christ.

And, who knows what wondrous things God has planned for that person in the eternal state?

Additionally, suffering and hardship serves the purpose of exposing peoples' innermost nature. Their response to it is like a thermometer that shows them what evil and distrust of God still lingers within.
 

CS1

Moderator
May 23, 2012
5,181
1,317
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A common claim by charismatics is that Christians are performing all the works that Jesus did during his earthly ministry.

Here's a verse that they commonly go to:

John 14:12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.

This claim came to a test recently with claims that Bethel Church (pastored by Bill Johnson) made concerning the death of a child of a member.

They "declared" that God would resurrect this child. However, this resurrection never occurred, and Bethel Church, again, is proved to be in gross error by claiming that they have such powers as believers.

Anyone who wants to research this can go to Youtube where various podcasts have clips from Bethel services concerning this.

Is this sort of delusion harmful? I think it is, because deceived believers are left with unmet expectations when claims like this are proven to be false.

Anyways, here's some discussion questions:

1. Are Christians, individually, able to do all the miracles of Jesus now?
2. Are Christians, collectively, able to do all the miracles of Jesus now?
3. What are we to conclude about Christians who claim they are doing such miracles? Are they deluded, lying, mentally ill, telling the truth? Or, is it a mixture?
4. What incidences of miracles have you seen? Were these miracles a result of church prayer, or individual prayer?
5. Do you claim personally to have miraculous gifts such as healing or resurrecting the dead?
6. Do you think that you personally can perform the miracles of Jesus at your will?
7. Is suffering a necessary part of the Christian lifestyle?

Now, before we start answering these questions, here's my view:

I believe most charismatics making audacious claims are either lying or deluded. Why would they do that? Maybe to get attention or to gain credibility as a great spiritual person

I believe it is possible for God to perform a miracle based on the prayers of the Church or the prayers of an individual. However, I believe such miracles are mostly attached to the proclamation of the gospel, and that they are mainly due to collective church prayer and not an individual.

I believe that irresponsible charismatic claims harm the Church, because, unfortunately, they are associated with Christianity and if the claims are lies or delusions, they reflect badly on the church as a whole, and in fact are causing God's name to be blasphemed amongst unbelievers (a violation of the second commandment regarding taking God's name in vain). As a former cultist, Christianity as a whole was disregarded by me, in part, because of the antics of the Word of Faith/charismatic/Pentecostal believers.

I don't believe that Christians as a whole perform miracles at will. When God wants to perform a miracle for his sovereign purposes, he prompts the prayer that leads to the miracle. However, his sovereign purposes may include suffering. In fact, I don't believe sanctification occurs without suffering.

Guys like Bill Johnson of Bethel claim there is no place for a theology of suffering. I am left wondering if he has even read the Bible. Scripture clearly teaches that suffering is used by God to bring the person to sanctification and glorification. In many ways, the life of the Christian mirrors Jesus Christ, in the sense that his suffering led to his exaltation and glorification. It really takes a theological buffoon to say some of the things I've heard from Word of Faith/charismatics in regards to suffering, and claiming that it is not God's will for believers to suffer.

That is one way I can tell whether someone is a babe in Christ, still nursing and in diapers, versus a mature believer. At best, the guy who thinks God is his cosmic Genie who is there to keep him from experiencing bad circumstances is a babe in Christ. He is still nursing and still in diapers, and unfortunately many in the Word of faith/charismatic movements are still there.

But, getting back to the Bethel antics regarding the resurrection of this child, I wonder how they will deal with that. Their shame is evident. And, I imagine the parents will feel guilty..what didn't we do right that this declared resurrection did not occur?

This is part of the madness of the charismatic/Word of Faith movement.

Additionally, be aware that Bethel purportedly has some sort of "resurrection squad" that follows first responders around and attempts to resurrect people needing emergency services. My understanding is that they claim they have resurrected 15 people this way.
SO the error of the guy Bill Johnson now discredits the very word of God completely ? And because one person made a claim God is enable to heal or raise the dead? You use the term " common claim by Charismatics" when is fact it's a quote of Jesus Himself. Found in the Gospel of John 14:12.
The "work" and "greater works " can and should be debated however, the application of doing greater works is not a wrong one. IF you understand what is the greater work? It is easy for one to say "those people" did not do greater works. I ask you now that you have provided the error of Bill Johnson can you also provide a contrast (correction) of what TODAYs greater work would look like and why are you not doing it if you are not? Please explain what is the greater work Jesus was speaking of? I would like to have your understanding and not some commentary. Thank you.