Are Christians given empowerment to do all the works Jesus did? Bethel and their resurrection claims
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It is greater in scope, not quality.
We can’t do greater works in quality. We can’t die for sinners to save them, but the Christ did.
We can’t raise the dead, but the Christ naturally whilst on earth and is still doing now spiritually. I’ve seen one code blue in 19+ years leave the hospital alive. Every other case left to go to a funeral home. Even that one that left to go home, it was not like He, and the Apostles did. It happened via meds, CPR, ventilation, &c.
We can’t heal ppl by laying hands on ppl, giving them prayer cloths, but the Christ and Apostles did.
The greater works is talking of the area they’d cover. Please watch that video. It’s less than 9 minutes long.
We can’t do greater works in quality. We can’t die for sinners to save them, but the Christ did.
We can’t raise the dead, but the Christ naturally whilst on earth and is still doing now spiritually. I’ve seen one code blue in 19+ years leave the hospital alive. Every other case left to go to a funeral home. Even that one that left to go home, it was not like He, and the Apostles did. It happened via meds, CPR, ventilation, &c.
We can’t heal ppl by laying hands on ppl, giving them prayer cloths, but the Christ and Apostles did.
The greater works is talking of the area they’d cover. Please watch that video. It’s less than 9 minutes long.
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Jesus is not suggesting one should die for sinners in john 14:12, Jesus, had not even died or rose from the dead. That is a false narrative. The "greater work" in the Greek means more of the same kind. If you read what Jesus said when he quoted the Prophet Isaiah in Lukes account found in Chapter 4: 17-19 we get understanding what it is Jesus said and did and how we can apply what is mentioned in John 14:12 in an edifying way.
NIV Luke 4:17-19
17. and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”[f]
- Are we too anointed as Jesus was ? Yes we are those who are christians:
- 2cor 1:19-22
- Are we to proclaim the Gospel to the poor ( Good news) as Jesus did ? yes we are as Jesus commanded us to do known as the "Great Commission" found in Mark 16:15 Matthews 24:14
- Are we to proclaim freedom for the prisoners? Does the word of God record Jesus visiting many prisons in the Gospels I guess Jesus was wrong when HE quoted this as we read in Luke 4:17-19? The truth is Jesus is doing just that everyday how>? Through the Believer.
- Is Jesus opening blind eyes today and setting free the oppressed? Yes HE is. those who scoffed and mock other in error should be able to provide edification and correction when an error is founded.
Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are "spiritual" restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.
The word "spiritual" means maturity.
Jesus only had three year of ministry everything God has done since the taking up of the lord has been done through HIS Church as God said it would be. To think one is suggestion of greater works means better than what God can do is foolish and error. But to do more of the same kind and greater meaning more of it, IS NOT.
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What you said about blasphemy was wrong. It is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit that is the unforgiveable sin, not blasphemy itself. For if we attribute to the devil the things that God does, how can we ever trust in Jesus?
Matthew 12:31-32 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
It's not blasphemy to be deceived. It is blasphemy to say God deceived you. If you are preaching a deception that you claim God told you (e.g. as in a prophecy), it is not only a lie, it is blasphemy.
Is this Christian Chat, or Calvinist Chat?
Calvin might have got some things right, but He didn't die to save us from our sins.
Matthew 12:31-32 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
It's not blasphemy to be deceived. It is blasphemy to say God deceived you. If you are preaching a deception that you claim God told you (e.g. as in a prophecy), it is not only a lie, it is blasphemy.
Is this Christian Chat, or Calvinist Chat?
Calvin might have got some things right, but He didn't die to save us from our sins.-
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Are all believers, individually, empowered to perform all the miracles of Christ at will?
At will? No. But that's what people will try to tell you who are in charismatic circles. They think they can make things happen just because they want them to. But if we look at Elijah's experience with the prophets of Baal on Mt. Carmel we see that he prepared the altar to set the stage for the miraculous power of God and prayed according to God's command, not his own will:
"24Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the Lord. The god who answers by fire—he is God.”
36At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: “Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command. 37Answer me, Lord, answer me, so these people will know that you, Lord, are God, and that you are turning their hearts back again.”
38Then the fire of the Lord fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench.
39When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, “The Lord—he is God! The Lord—he is God!” - 1 Kings 18:24,36-39
When God tells you what he's going to do that is the only time, in my opinion, that someone can confidently pray and say that God WILL do what you're praying for. But I don't see any reason whatsoever to not pray for someone or something without that inner voice of faith telling you what he will do. But we only know for sure that it will happen if God tells you it will happen.
At will? No. But that's what people will try to tell you who are in charismatic circles. They think they can make things happen just because they want them to. But if we look at Elijah's experience with the prophets of Baal on Mt. Carmel we see that he prepared the altar to set the stage for the miraculous power of God and prayed according to God's command, not his own will:
"24Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the Lord. The god who answers by fire—he is God.”
36At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: “Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command. 37Answer me, Lord, answer me, so these people will know that you, Lord, are God, and that you are turning their hearts back again.”
38Then the fire of the Lord fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench.
39When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, “The Lord—he is God! The Lord—he is God!” - 1 Kings 18:24,36-39
When God tells you what he's going to do that is the only time, in my opinion, that someone can confidently pray and say that God WILL do what you're praying for. But I don't see any reason whatsoever to not pray for someone or something without that inner voice of faith telling you what he will do. But we only know for sure that it will happen if God tells you it will happen.
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Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Joh 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
I do not understand how anybody can outdo Jesus in miracles, and the things He done in works for He was non stop at laboring for the kingdom and doing the will of God.
But collectively they could do greater works than Jesus.
Also the works and miracles they did were not in some things Jesus did at least not common place for Jesus also had to prove He is the Messiah.
Mat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Jesus said they would do these miracles, but there are miracles that are not common place for the saints to do.
Catching a large number of fish.
Calming the storm.
Feeding 5000 men and their families with a little bread and a few fish.
Walking on water.
Catching a fish with a coin in it's mouth.
Curses the fig tree and it withers.
Casts demons in to a herd of swine.
Which how many of the disciples were doing these miracles.
A person can possibly outdo Jesus in works of preaching the Gospel and feeding and clothing the poor and needy for they can labor for the kingdom for more than three and one half years and can reach out to more people as it spreads as an example is Paul.
But as for miracles I do not see how they can do it which possibly healing but Jesus healed a lot of people.
But for miracles that are not common place for a saint they could not.
The greater works that Jesus spoke about would probably be all the works that is involved in laboring for the kingdom of God and not only miracles.
And collectively they could do more healing especially at the time of the apostles.
Joh 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
I do not understand how anybody can outdo Jesus in miracles, and the things He done in works for He was non stop at laboring for the kingdom and doing the will of God.
But collectively they could do greater works than Jesus.
Also the works and miracles they did were not in some things Jesus did at least not common place for Jesus also had to prove He is the Messiah.
Mat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Jesus said they would do these miracles, but there are miracles that are not common place for the saints to do.
Catching a large number of fish.
Calming the storm.
Feeding 5000 men and their families with a little bread and a few fish.
Walking on water.
Catching a fish with a coin in it's mouth.
Curses the fig tree and it withers.
Casts demons in to a herd of swine.
Which how many of the disciples were doing these miracles.
A person can possibly outdo Jesus in works of preaching the Gospel and feeding and clothing the poor and needy for they can labor for the kingdom for more than three and one half years and can reach out to more people as it spreads as an example is Paul.
But as for miracles I do not see how they can do it which possibly healing but Jesus healed a lot of people.
But for miracles that are not common place for a saint they could not.
The greater works that Jesus spoke about would probably be all the works that is involved in laboring for the kingdom of God and not only miracles.
And collectively they could do more healing especially at the time of the apostles.
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Christians are supposed to judge, but by the standards set by Christ...that does not include using the teachings of men who only believe half the Bible as it suits them
yet we see in this and other threads, that is exactly the criteria being used
that is not the standard for a Christian, so we have error heaped upon error
it is more than a sad indictment to realize that people are being judged through a man who is dead for hundreds of years and the accusation of blasphemer is being hurled at them
I can only say again that error is not blasphemy and the actual blasphemy occurring in this and other Calvinist threads, is saying the work of the Holy Spirit is from the devil
that is the devil's work. when you have men like MacArthur who labels millions of people as demoniacs, you know what the devil hates and what he hates is the Holy Spirit
is there abuse in Charismatic churches? yes.
however, the flip side of that coin, is the denial of any authentic works of the Spirit of God and worse, telling people they are in gross error
this spirit of deception, regarding the work of the Holy Spirit, is based in fear and self righteousness
yet we see in this and other threads, that is exactly the criteria being used
that is not the standard for a Christian, so we have error heaped upon error
it is more than a sad indictment to realize that people are being judged through a man who is dead for hundreds of years and the accusation of blasphemer is being hurled at them
I can only say again that error is not blasphemy and the actual blasphemy occurring in this and other Calvinist threads, is saying the work of the Holy Spirit is from the devil
that is the devil's work. when you have men like MacArthur who labels millions of people as demoniacs, you know what the devil hates and what he hates is the Holy Spirit
is there abuse in Charismatic churches? yes.
however, the flip side of that coin, is the denial of any authentic works of the Spirit of God and worse, telling people they are in gross error
this spirit of deception, regarding the work of the Holy Spirit, is based in fear and self righteousness
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John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
sadly for me this verse is just disappointing on all fronts.
either we need some new explanation to say how spreading the gospel to more people is somehow greater works than what Jesus did. which sucks as an explanation cause this is talking about individual person who believes on Jesus, its talking in singular he.
and the apostles or anyone in history has never done greater works than Jesus, factually speaking. so it means either this verse is wrong due to manuscript corruption or wrongly translated or soemthing, or it means there are no saved christians around and everyone sucks at being a christian and is just too worldly to do any greater works.
really depressing verse. but thats the only way to look at it honestly. i was puzzled by this when i read it as i know no one has done greater miracles, so i looked what people say about it and without exception almost everyone always say that yeah its talking about evangelizing or spreading gospel more than Jesus did, thats just so pathetic and ridicilous explanation i cannot believe it. i dont know why you repeat such bad explanations, its like when people try to make the wine in the bible to talk about grape juice its just so deceptive and false it makes me angry teh argument about new wine thats already disproven in acts 2:13 where new wine is said to makes people drunk lolz.
does anyone have any real explanation to this verse and why its not happening and never has happened?
sadly for me this verse is just disappointing on all fronts.
either we need some new explanation to say how spreading the gospel to more people is somehow greater works than what Jesus did. which sucks as an explanation cause this is talking about individual person who believes on Jesus, its talking in singular he.
and the apostles or anyone in history has never done greater works than Jesus, factually speaking. so it means either this verse is wrong due to manuscript corruption or wrongly translated or soemthing, or it means there are no saved christians around and everyone sucks at being a christian and is just too worldly to do any greater works.
really depressing verse. but thats the only way to look at it honestly. i was puzzled by this when i read it as i know no one has done greater miracles, so i looked what people say about it and without exception almost everyone always say that yeah its talking about evangelizing or spreading gospel more than Jesus did, thats just so pathetic and ridicilous explanation i cannot believe it. i dont know why you repeat such bad explanations, its like when people try to make the wine in the bible to talk about grape juice its just so deceptive and false it makes me angry teh argument about new wine thats already disproven in acts 2:13 where new wine is said to makes people drunk lolz.
does anyone have any real explanation to this verse and why its not happening and never has happened?
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It's been a real stumper for me to.
I have heard it's referring to how Jesus, for example, raised the dead just so they can die again, while we, because of the giving of the Spirit in this New Covenant, raise people up to eternal life. I think that's a good start on discerning this verse. The key being that what we will do greater than what he did is made possible by Jesus going away to the Father. Namely, that the He would release the Spirit in response to Christ's going away to the Father.
I have heard it's referring to how Jesus, for example, raised the dead just so they can die again, while we, because of the giving of the Spirit in this New Covenant, raise people up to eternal life. I think that's a good start on discerning this verse. The key being that what we will do greater than what he did is made possible by Jesus going away to the Father. Namely, that the He would release the Spirit in response to Christ's going away to the Father.
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My position would be that the "greater works" involve the scope of the gospel preaching, and the miracles of the apostles.
Regarding Bill Johnson, you are correct in that he doesn't represent all charismatics. Perhaps I should have qualified my criticism with the word "some" or maybe "many" or "most".
One reason I am not doing it is that I am not the entire church, and I am focused on my field, not someone else's. I am not a vain charismatic who believes he is doing a greater work than Jesus personally. I am humble enough to realize this, and to check out the commentaries of others, especially older, well-educated believers who know the original languages in depth.
By the way, there's nothing wrong with commentary. I am aware that I am one member of the body of Christ, and that other brothers have researched issues thoroughly and their input is coherent.
The disdain for such well-ordered exegesis is another facet of the charismatic/Pentecostal/Word of Faith movement. They hate the academic understanding of God's word. Some of them don't even prepare for sermons, but stand up and speak what flows from their mouth under the guise of the "leading of the Holy Spirit". Those are the ones who say anything intelligible.
This anti-intellectualism arose in the early 1800's with Charles Finney and his "New School" movement. Unfortunately this is the norm within Christianity. It mostly came from "frontier religion" where the audience wasn't well educated, and emotionalism appealed to them over studying God's word in a systematic fashion.
By the way, I"m not surprised that charismatics are enraged by my position. However, if one of them claims they do greater works than Jesus, in terms of healings, resurrections, exorcisms, etcetera..show me. Show me any one person who does those kinds of works.
And, don't tell me that God won't show me because I am unbelieving. I totally believe God heals upon the collective prayers of his people if it is his sovereign will. I woudn't have a great problem with believing that God sometimes heals upon the prayers of individuals either.
Regarding Bill Johnson, you are correct in that he doesn't represent all charismatics. Perhaps I should have qualified my criticism with the word "some" or maybe "many" or "most".
One reason I am not doing it is that I am not the entire church, and I am focused on my field, not someone else's. I am not a vain charismatic who believes he is doing a greater work than Jesus personally. I am humble enough to realize this, and to check out the commentaries of others, especially older, well-educated believers who know the original languages in depth.
By the way, there's nothing wrong with commentary. I am aware that I am one member of the body of Christ, and that other brothers have researched issues thoroughly and their input is coherent.
The disdain for such well-ordered exegesis is another facet of the charismatic/Pentecostal/Word of Faith movement. They hate the academic understanding of God's word. Some of them don't even prepare for sermons, but stand up and speak what flows from their mouth under the guise of the "leading of the Holy Spirit". Those are the ones who say anything intelligible.
This anti-intellectualism arose in the early 1800's with Charles Finney and his "New School" movement. Unfortunately this is the norm within Christianity. It mostly came from "frontier religion" where the audience wasn't well educated, and emotionalism appealed to them over studying God's word in a systematic fashion.
By the way, I"m not surprised that charismatics are enraged by my position. However, if one of them claims they do greater works than Jesus, in terms of healings, resurrections, exorcisms, etcetera..show me. Show me any one person who does those kinds of works.
And, don't tell me that God won't show me because I am unbelieving. I totally believe God heals upon the collective prayers of his people if it is his sovereign will. I woudn't have a great problem with believing that God sometimes heals upon the prayers of individuals either.
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