Are Christians given empowerment to do all the works Jesus did? Bethel and their resurrection claims

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Are all believers, individually, empowered to perform all the miracles of Christ at will?

  • Yes, all believers are empowered to perform all the miracles of Christ at will.

    Votes: 8 32.0%
  • No, but some believers are empowered to perform all the miracles of Christ at will

    Votes: 2 8.0%
  • No, but collective prayer of the saints and individuals sometimes result in miracles

    Votes: 14 56.0%
  • No, and collective prayer of the saints and individuals never result in miracles

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 1 4.0%

  • Total voters
    25

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Well-known member
Oct 25, 2018
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SO the error of the guy Bill Johnson now discredits the very word of God completely ? And because one person made a claim God is enable to heal or raise the dead? You use the term " common claim by Charismatics" when is fact it's a quote of Jesus Himself. Found in the Gospel of John 14:12.
The "work" and "greater works " can and should be debated however, the application of doing greater works is not a wrong one. IF you understand what is the greater work? It is easy for one to say "those people" did not do greater works. I ask you now that you have provided the error of Bill Johnson can you also provide a contrast (correction) of what TODAYs greater work would look like and why are you not doing it if you are not? Please explain what is the greater work Jesus was speaking of? I would like to have your understanding and not some commentary. Thank you.
As Costi Hinn said, “What greater works can we do that Jesus did? Can we die for sinners? Can we raise the dead? Can we heal the sick?” Paraphrasing that. What He was talking about in regards to greater works was in scope, not quality.
 

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Well-known member
Oct 25, 2018
1,708
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SO the error of the guy Bill Johnson now discredits the very word of God completely ? And because one person made a claim God is enable to heal or raise the dead? You use the term " common claim by Charismatics" when is fact it's a quote of Jesus Himself. Found in the Gospel of John 14:12.
The "work" and "greater works " can and should be debated however, the application of doing greater works is not a wrong one. IF you understand what is the greater work? It is easy for one to say "those people" did not do greater works. I ask you now that you have provided the error of Bill Johnson can you also provide a contrast (correction) of what TODAYs greater work would look like and why are you not doing it if you are not? Please explain what is the greater work Jesus was speaking of? I would like to have your understanding and not some commentary. Thank you.
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Well-known member
Oct 25, 2018
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I take you have nothing to explain what the greater work is?
It is greater in scope, not quality.

We can’t do greater works in quality. We can’t die for sinners to save them, but the Christ did.

We can’t raise the dead, but the Christ naturally whilst on earth and is still doing now spiritually. I’ve seen one code blue in 19+ years leave the hospital alive. Every other case left to go to a funeral home. Even that one that left to go home, it was not like He, and the Apostles did. It happened via meds, CPR, ventilation, &c.

We can’t heal ppl by laying hands on ppl, giving them prayer cloths, but the Christ and Apostles did.

The greater works is talking of the area they’d cover. Please watch that video. It’s less than 9 minutes long.
 

CS1

Moderator
May 23, 2012
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It is greater in scope, not quality.

We can’t do greater works in quality. We can’t die for sinners to save them, but the Christ did.

We can’t raise the dead, but the Christ naturally whilst on earth and is still doing now spiritually. I’ve seen one code blue in 19+ years leave the hospital alive. Every other case left to go to a funeral home. Even that one that left to go home, it was not like He, and the Apostles did. It happened via meds, CPR, ventilation, &c.

We can’t heal ppl by laying hands on ppl, giving them prayer cloths, but the Christ and Apostles did.

The greater works is talking of the area they’d cover. Please watch that video. It’s less than 9 minutes long.


Jesus is not suggesting one should die for sinners in john 14:12, Jesus, had not even died or rose from the dead. That is a false narrative. The "greater work" in the Greek means more of the same kind. If you read what Jesus said when he quoted the Prophet Isaiah in Lukes account found in Chapter 4: 17-19 we get understanding what it is Jesus said and did and how we can apply what is mentioned in John 14:12 in an edifying way.

NIV Luke 4:17-19

17. and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”[f]

  • Are we too anointed as Jesus was ? Yes we are those who are christians:
    • 2cor 1:19-22

  • Are we to proclaim the Gospel to the poor ( Good news) as Jesus did ? yes we are as Jesus commanded us to do known as the "Great Commission" found in Mark 16:15 Matthews 24:14
maybe you should read RC Sproul "What Is the Great Commission?" (Volume 21) on that.

  • Are we to proclaim freedom for the prisoners? Does the word of God record Jesus visiting many prisons in the Gospels I guess Jesus was wrong when HE quoted this as we read in Luke 4:17-19? The truth is Jesus is doing just that everyday how>? Through the Believer.
  • Is Jesus opening blind eyes today and setting free the oppressed? Yes HE is. those who scoffed and mock other in error should be able to provide edification and correction when an error is founded.
Galatians 6:1
Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are "spiritual" restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.

The word "spiritual" means maturity.

Jesus only had three year of ministry everything God has done since the taking up of the lord has been done through HIS Church as God said it would be. To think one is suggestion of greater works means better than what God can do is foolish and error. But to do more of the same kind and greater meaning more of it, IS NOT.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
2,785
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What’s not biblical about asking God to protect you and keep you happy and healthy? What’s wrong with some of you people?
I know ... what is the deal with some people?
We should trust God for good ...

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Matthew 7:11
 

Kim82

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
695
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If there be no further important points to add to this thread, then I hear by call for blessed silence.
EminentGlisteningAcornbarnacle-max-1mb.gif
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
9,202
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If there be no further important points to add to this thread, then I hear by call for blessed silence.
View attachment 209001

why of course

I guess you are taking advice from the thread you started about a guard over your mouth?

see how works?

don't tell others what to do when you obviously do NOT put it into practice yourself
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
9,202
4,001
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As Costi Hinn said, “What greater works can we do that Jesus did? Can we die for sinners? Can we raise the dead? Can we heal the sick?” Paraphrasing that. What He was talking about in regards to greater works was in scope, not quality.

it's either Calvin or some other dude

when do we get to hear what Jesus taught you?
 

Moses_Young

Active member
Sep 15, 2019
284
141
43
why do you ignore what I said about blasphemy?

that is the only sin that Jesus stated cannot be forgiven
What you said about blasphemy was wrong. It is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit that is the unforgiveable sin, not blasphemy itself. For if we attribute to the devil the things that God does, how can we ever trust in Jesus?

Matthew 12:31-32 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

you do know that even the most sincere Christian on earth can be deceived or very wrong?
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

that is not blasphemy
It's not blasphemy to be deceived. It is blasphemy to say God deceived you. If you are preaching a deception that you claim God told you (e.g. as in a prophecy), it is not only a lie, it is blasphemy.

and by the way, you did not answer if you were a Calvinist or not
Is this Christian Chat, or Calvinist Chat? ;) Calvin might have got some things right, but He didn't die to save us from our sins.
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
2,172
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He did both:

"For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” John 10:17-18
I respect you and rejoice in what you’re sharing; I’m simply calling out the crucifier.
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
2,172
2,737
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I know ... what is the deal with some people?
We should trust God for good ...

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Matthew 7:11
Stop right there, Eleven! Quit sharing the Gospel (Good News) of Jesus with others.
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
2,172
2,737
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SO the error of the guy Bill Johnson now discredits the very word of God completely ? And because one person made a claim God is enable to heal or raise the dead? You use the term " common claim by Charismatics" when is fact it's a quote of Jesus Himself. Found in the Gospel of John 14:12.
The "work" and "greater works " can and should be debated however, the application of doing greater works is not a wrong one. IF you understand what is the greater work? It is easy for one to say "those people" did not do greater works. I ask you now that you have provided the error of Bill Johnson can you also provide a contrast (correction) of what TODAYs greater work would look like and why are you not doing it if you are not? Please explain what is the greater work Jesus was speaking of? I would like to have your understanding and not some commentary. Thank you.
Thank you.
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
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Are all believers, individually, empowered to perform all the miracles of Christ at will?

At will? No. But that's what people will try to tell you who are in charismatic circles. They think they can make things happen just because they want them to. But if we look at Elijah's experience with the prophets of Baal on Mt. Carmel we see that he prepared the altar to set the stage for the miraculous power of God and prayed according to God's command, not his own will:

"24Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the Lord. The god who answers by fire—he is God.”

36At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: “Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command. 37Answer me, Lord, answer me, so these people will know that you, Lord, are God, and that you are turning their hearts back again.”

38Then the fire of the Lord fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench.

39When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, “The Lord—he is God! The Lord—he is God!” - 1 Kings 18:24,36-39


When God tells you what he's going to do that is the only time, in my opinion, that someone can confidently pray and say that God WILL do what you're praying for. But I don't see any reason whatsoever to not pray for someone or something without that inner voice of faith telling you what he will do. But we only know for sure that it will happen if God tells you it will happen.
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Joh 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

I do not understand how anybody can outdo Jesus in miracles, and the things He done in works for He was non stop at laboring for the kingdom and doing the will of God.

But collectively they could do greater works than Jesus.

Also the works and miracles they did were not in some things Jesus did at least not common place for Jesus also had to prove He is the Messiah.

Mat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

Jesus said they would do these miracles, but there are miracles that are not common place for the saints to do.

Catching a large number of fish.

Calming the storm.

Feeding 5000 men and their families with a little bread and a few fish.

Walking on water.

Catching a fish with a coin in it's mouth.

Curses the fig tree and it withers.

Casts demons in to a herd of swine.

Which how many of the disciples were doing these miracles.

A person can possibly outdo Jesus in works of preaching the Gospel and feeding and clothing the poor and needy for they can labor for the kingdom for more than three and one half years and can reach out to more people as it spreads as an example is Paul.

But as for miracles I do not see how they can do it which possibly healing but Jesus healed a lot of people.

But for miracles that are not common place for a saint they could not.

The greater works that Jesus spoke about would probably be all the works that is involved in laboring for the kingdom of God and not only miracles.

And collectively they could do more healing especially at the time of the apostles.
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
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Christians are supposed to judge, but by the standards set by Christ...that does not include using the teachings of men who only believe half the Bible as it suits them

yet we see in this and other threads, that is exactly the criteria being used

that is not the standard for a Christian, so we have error heaped upon error

it is more than a sad indictment to realize that people are being judged through a man who is dead for hundreds of years and the accusation of blasphemer is being hurled at them

I can only say again that error is not blasphemy and the actual blasphemy occurring in this and other Calvinist threads, is saying the work of the Holy Spirit is from the devil

that is the devil's work. when you have men like MacArthur who labels millions of people as demoniacs, you know what the devil hates and what he hates is the Holy Spirit

is there abuse in Charismatic churches? yes.

however, the flip side of that coin, is the denial of any authentic works of the Spirit of God and worse, telling people they are in gross error

this spirit of deception, regarding the work of the Holy Spirit, is based in fear and self righteousness
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

sadly for me this verse is just disappointing on all fronts.

either we need some new explanation to say how spreading the gospel to more people is somehow greater works than what Jesus did. which sucks as an explanation cause this is talking about individual person who believes on Jesus, its talking in singular he.

and the apostles or anyone in history has never done greater works than Jesus, factually speaking. so it means either this verse is wrong due to manuscript corruption or wrongly translated or soemthing, or it means there are no saved christians around and everyone sucks at being a christian and is just too worldly to do any greater works.

really depressing verse. but thats the only way to look at it honestly. i was puzzled by this when i read it as i know no one has done greater miracles, so i looked what people say about it and without exception almost everyone always say that yeah its talking about evangelizing or spreading gospel more than Jesus did, thats just so pathetic and ridicilous explanation i cannot believe it. i dont know why you repeat such bad explanations, its like when people try to make the wine in the bible to talk about grape juice its just so deceptive and false it makes me angry teh argument about new wine thats already disproven in acts 2:13 where new wine is said to makes people drunk lolz.

does anyone have any real explanation to this verse and why its not happening and never has happened?
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
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does anyone have any real explanation to this verse and why its not happening and never has happened?
It's been a real stumper for me to.
I have heard it's referring to how Jesus, for example, raised the dead just so they can die again, while we, because of the giving of the Spirit in this New Covenant, raise people up to eternal life. I think that's a good start on discerning this verse. The key being that what we will do greater than what he did is made possible by Jesus going away to the Father. Namely, that the He would release the Spirit in response to Christ's going away to the Father.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
2,441
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SO the error of the guy Bill Johnson now discredits the very word of God completely ? And because one person made a claim God is enable to heal or raise the dead? You use the term " common claim by Charismatics" when is fact it's a quote of Jesus Himself. Found in the Gospel of John 14:12.
The "work" and "greater works " can and should be debated however, the application of doing greater works is not a wrong one. IF you understand what is the greater work? It is easy for one to say "those people" did not do greater works. I ask you now that you have provided the error of Bill Johnson can you also provide a contrast (correction) of what TODAYs greater work would look like and why are you not doing it if you are not? Please explain what is the greater work Jesus was speaking of? I would like to have your understanding and not some commentary. Thank you.
My position would be that the "greater works" involve the scope of the gospel preaching, and the miracles of the apostles.

Regarding Bill Johnson, you are correct in that he doesn't represent all charismatics. Perhaps I should have qualified my criticism with the word "some" or maybe "many" or "most".

One reason I am not doing it is that I am not the entire church, and I am focused on my field, not someone else's. I am not a vain charismatic who believes he is doing a greater work than Jesus personally. I am humble enough to realize this, and to check out the commentaries of others, especially older, well-educated believers who know the original languages in depth.

By the way, there's nothing wrong with commentary. I am aware that I am one member of the body of Christ, and that other brothers have researched issues thoroughly and their input is coherent.

The disdain for such well-ordered exegesis is another facet of the charismatic/Pentecostal/Word of Faith movement. They hate the academic understanding of God's word. Some of them don't even prepare for sermons, but stand up and speak what flows from their mouth under the guise of the "leading of the Holy Spirit". Those are the ones who say anything intelligible.

This anti-intellectualism arose in the early 1800's with Charles Finney and his "New School" movement. Unfortunately this is the norm within Christianity. It mostly came from "frontier religion" where the audience wasn't well educated, and emotionalism appealed to them over studying God's word in a systematic fashion.

By the way, I"m not surprised that charismatics are enraged by my position. However, if one of them claims they do greater works than Jesus, in terms of healings, resurrections, exorcisms, etcetera..show me. Show me any one person who does those kinds of works.

And, don't tell me that God won't show me because I am unbelieving. I totally believe God heals upon the collective prayers of his people if it is his sovereign will. I woudn't have a great problem with believing that God sometimes heals upon the prayers of individuals either.