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K
I already know what you are trying to get at. You will say "Resurrection means rising from the dead, you have to be dead before you can be resurrected". Then I will quote Jesus " Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God."
Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
K
You are dancing around the question.Again, what does "being resurrected" mean? There are two resurrections that will happen, the resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the unjust. What will occur?
If the dead are alive and in heaven somewhere, blissfully living with God and Jesus, why do they need bodies?
You were right a couple posts back. I believe resurrection means people will be raised from death. You have to be dead before you can be raised from the dead.
The wages of sin is death. If that means only the body dies and our "souls" go immediately to heaven, why is death called an "enemy"?
I agree with you. The millennial kingdom will be on this current earth, and after the millennial kingdom, God will bring in the new (third) heaven and earth (Rev 21).
You were right a couple posts back. I believe resurrection means people will be raised from death. You have to be dead before you can be raised from the dead.
The wages of sin is death. If that means only the body dies and our "souls" go immediately to heaven, why is death called an "enemy"?
I agree with you. The millennial kingdom will be on this current earth, and after the millennial kingdom, God will bring in the new (third) heaven and earth (Rev 21).
According to your belief, this demon appeared as Samuel covered with a mantle and was seen . Where did this demon come from? Did this demon communicate any lies or deception to Saul? Did the prophecy made of Saul's death come to pass the next day as was predicted? If this was a demon impersonating Samuel, can you find another illustration where a demon impersonated another man of God (living or dead), who also prophesied of a future event and that event came to past? We have illustrations of demons recognizing men of God but never impersonating them to my knowledge.
The following passage it what took place in (1Sam 28:7-20) and notice the words of Samuel (or a demon) to Saul which are highlighted in RED. Tell me if you think that these words came from the mouth of a demon...
7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.
Do we find in the scriptures anywhere that in this passage and story that these were the words of a demon or demonic spirit or does the testimony of scripture point to those words being from Samuel to Saul? Notice (v.20) and all the BLUE BOLD UNDERLINED.
Remember a kingdom divided against itself can not stand (Lk 11:18). The scriptures warn us against calling those things that are from God as from the devil. You perhaps should take heed to this warning and reconsider whether this was God's prophet Samuel speaking to Saul or a demon. If you are wrong, think of the implications, all in the effort to support your doctrine of the dead.
The following passage it what took place in (1Sam 28:7-20) and notice the words of Samuel (or a demon) to Saul which are highlighted in RED. Tell me if you think that these words came from the mouth of a demon...
7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.
Do we find in the scriptures anywhere that in this passage and story that these were the words of a demon or demonic spirit or does the testimony of scripture point to those words being from Samuel to Saul? Notice (v.20) and all the BLUE BOLD UNDERLINED.
Remember a kingdom divided against itself can not stand (Lk 11:18). The scriptures warn us against calling those things that are from God as from the devil. You perhaps should take heed to this warning and reconsider whether this was God's prophet Samuel speaking to Saul or a demon. If you are wrong, think of the implications, all in the effort to support your doctrine of the dead.
In 1 Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul and an evil spirit from the Lord [lord of this world, Satan] troubled him. Saul lost his relationship with Samuel and with God. 1 Samuel 28:5,6 And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not either by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. So in desperation, after having put away all those with familiar spirits (v3) Saul demands his servants to find a woman with a "familiar spirit". Did you notice that Saul actually disguised himself so no one would notice him going to a woman with a "familiar spirit"? (Also see Lev. 19:31; 20:6; & Deut. 18:9-11) What did Saul ask her to do "Bring me up, Samuel."? It's as if he were having a seance. We have to understand that anything that has happened in the senses world is accessible to Satan's knowledge so all the facts in 1 Samuel were well known to Satan.
The seance with the woman of Endor was Satan working through a woman who was possessed and controlled by a specific kind of evil spirit called a "familiar spirit." It is called a "familiar spirit" because they ("familiar spirits") are well aware of all that has happened in a person's life. Satan always produces a counterfeit but that counterfeit resembles the genuine so perfectly that Satan's deceit is very effective.Thus Satan used the prophetess of Endor who had a familiar spirit to counterfeit Samuel by materialization and impersonation. Samuel himself never appeared in Saul's seance but the woman of Endor being controlled by a "familiar spirit" impersonated the dead Samuel by materialization. Because of the "words of Samuel" that came from the woman with the "familiar spirit" Saul fell straightway and was sore afraid.
This calling up of spirits is still done today and a familiar spirit will call up the spirit of
someone's grandmother or grandfather will speak with that person's voice to deceive. In Ecclesiastes and other places the dead are described as having no thoughts, no love, no hatred, etc. then that is how they are. We can't go beyond that.
The seance with the woman of Endor was Satan working through a woman who was possessed and controlled by a specific kind of evil spirit called a "familiar spirit." It is called a "familiar spirit" because they ("familiar spirits") are well aware of all that has happened in a person's life. Satan always produces a counterfeit but that counterfeit resembles the genuine so perfectly that Satan's deceit is very effective.Thus Satan used the prophetess of Endor who had a familiar spirit to counterfeit Samuel by materialization and impersonation. Samuel himself never appeared in Saul's seance but the woman of Endor being controlled by a "familiar spirit" impersonated the dead Samuel by materialization. Because of the "words of Samuel" that came from the woman with the "familiar spirit" Saul fell straightway and was sore afraid.
This calling up of spirits is still done today and a familiar spirit will call up the spirit of
someone's grandmother or grandfather will speak with that person's voice to deceive. In Ecclesiastes and other places the dead are described as having no thoughts, no love, no hatred, etc. then that is how they are. We can't go beyond that.
Look at everything that is said by Samuel in RED and tell me what is deceitful or deceptive about those words. Read them (10) times if you need to and let me know the darkness of what was said. There is no question as to who this woman was and to say that Saul was sore afraid is an indication that Samuel's words must have come from a familiar spirit is not justification. The prediction that was made that involved Saul and his sons death, the reasoning for the kingdom being rent from Saul and given to David who he was jealous of and Israel being delivered into the hands of the Philistines, it is any wonder that he was sore afraid and left without strength because of the dilemma that was to befall him, his sons and Israel at the hands of the Philistines.
All of this was true and came to past just as it was told Saul without deception and it all came by the hand of God. There was not one single demonic counterfeit thing about this communication between Samuel and Saul. The woman who had the familiar spirit knew it was Samuel, Saul knew it was Samuel and everything Samuel spoke came to past exactly as it had been predicted. How are you going to refute those facts and it does not matter what Saul's intentions were with this woman of Endor. God has all authority and he overruled in this situation and got a message to Saul through Samuel that came to past. Are you going to tell me that this demon made this happen or had foreknowledge as to what was going to happen with Saul, his sons and Israel?
You have mentioned about studying to show yourself approved, you need to do that with this story instead of accepting what might be a popular understanding with some believers. You have mentioned a few things about it but have you really studied it thoroughly? Just those objective facts that have been mentioned should tell you something and give you a good start.
What is deceitful/deceptive about those words - they didn't come from Samuel - Samuel had just died. It is the "familiar spirit" impersonating Samuel because that is what they do and being "familiar with Samuel" (knowing what Samuel would say) that is what the spirit said. These verses are very clear when we understand what a familiar spirit is and does and its basically demonstrating a seance.
Those words may have come to pass exactly as the familiar spirit spoke but it has had its consequences later as we see - Satan is a deceiver - he has made people think that the dead are alive when God clearly says they are dead and will remain dead until the resurrection.
Those words may have come to pass exactly as the familiar spirit spoke but it has had its consequences later as we see - Satan is a deceiver - he has made people think that the dead are alive when God clearly says they are dead and will remain dead until the resurrection.
As PB said, God had stopped communicating with Saul by prophets. Do you believe that Samuel (assuming as you do that he was not really dead), would disobey God and communicate with him? I do not.
Also, "Samuel" appeared to them clothed. What body did he use? Orthodox Christianity teaches that only the body dies, and the soul lives on without a body until one of the upcoming resurrections where their bodyless souls will get their new bodies. That resurrection has not happened yet. So what body did "Samuel" use?
The devil knew the spiritual state Saul was in (without God). He also knew that they were surrounded by enemies. It was a trivial thing for a devil spirit to prophesy Saul's death.
Samuel is dead. He will be raised from death at the first resurrection, which is still future. The thing that the witch "knew" was Samuel and that Saul "knew" was Samuel was a devil spirit.
Also, "Samuel" appeared to them clothed. What body did he use? Orthodox Christianity teaches that only the body dies, and the soul lives on without a body until one of the upcoming resurrections where their bodyless souls will get their new bodies. That resurrection has not happened yet. So what body did "Samuel" use?
The devil knew the spiritual state Saul was in (without God). He also knew that they were surrounded by enemies. It was a trivial thing for a devil spirit to prophesy Saul's death.
Samuel is dead. He will be raised from death at the first resurrection, which is still future. The thing that the witch "knew" was Samuel and that Saul "knew" was Samuel was a devil spirit.
How would a familiar spirit know that Saul and his sons would be dead the next day? Also, how would they know that God was going to give Israel into the hands of the Philistines? Did they have foreknowledge or privy to it from God Himself? Are we going to attribute foreknowledge to Satan and the kingdom of darkness which includes demons or devils?
What are the consequences that we later see? You and Shroom2 presume that the soul and body goes in the grave, but that is not what the scriptures teach, but don't let that distract you.
What are the consequences that we later see? You and Shroom2 presume that the soul and body goes in the grave, but that is not what the scriptures teach, but don't let that distract you.
If Samuel was actually brought up and spoke with Saul, that would destroy your doctrine of the dead among other passages of scripture that you dismiss with you rationalization. In your eyes this has to be a demon or your cooked. Samuel never answered Saul's inquiry as to what to do but simply agreed with God and stated the facts of what was going to happen. Samuel was privy to the providence of God and what would happen to Saul, his sons and to Israel. There is not a demon in hell or roaming the earth who could have known these things that were in the mind of God and you are attributing the work of God to the devil and you call that trivial! I would think long and hard before making more statements like the ones you have made so far.
Yes, it would.
For example?
It WAS a demon. It plainly says Saul sought out a woman with a devil spirit.
The devil spirit did that. Samuel was dead.
Saul had stopped hearing from God, and had lost God's support. His army was surrounded by a much larger Philistine army, bent on Saul's destruction. It doesn't take the "providence of God" to figure out what would happen.
I stand behind my belief and statements, and am convinced they are biblical. The dead are not frolicking in heaven. They are dead, and will remain so until one of the upcoming resurrections.
For example?
It WAS a demon. It plainly says Saul sought out a woman with a devil spirit.
The devil spirit did that. Samuel was dead.
Saul had stopped hearing from God, and had lost God's support. His army was surrounded by a much larger Philistine army, bent on Saul's destruction. It doesn't take the "providence of God" to figure out what would happen.
I stand behind my belief and statements, and am convinced they are biblical. The dead are not frolicking in heaven. They are dead, and will remain so until one of the upcoming resurrections.
A familiar spirit is under the control of their master, Satan. Satan knows everything that goes on in the senses realm - he is after all the "god of this world." It says plainly - "seek me a woman with a familiar spirit" - Saul actively sought out someone to evoke the dead. The devil spirit entered her and spoke using Samuel's voice (this is what they do) and being the "god of this world", yes, he would know what is happening in the senses realm. The problem with a lot of people is that they don't think the devil is real and actively working.
What are the consequences that we later see? You and Shroom2 presume that the soul and body goes in the grave, but that is not what the scriptures teach, but don't let that distract you.[/quote]
This is what God says about death: Ecc. 9:5-6 For the LIVING KNOW THAT THEY SHALL DIE; but the DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the son. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it. The spirit is not the same as the soul/body. The soul is breath life as it says in Genesis 2:7 so when a man quits breathing; everything he is/was is dead. Nothing is said in Scripture as to the spirit apart from the body, either before their union, which made man "a living soul" or after the union is broken, when man becomes a "dead soul". Where scripture is silent -- we remain silent.
The resurrection is when the dead rise that is what resurrection means; this corruptible must put on incorruption before it can be resurrected. Shroom2 and I do not assume anything - this is what God says.
Satan is still changing the truth of God's word as he did in the garden with Eve and people are still believing his lies.
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What are the consequences that we later see? You and Shroom2 presume that the soul and body goes in the grave, but that is not what the scriptures teach, but don't let that distract you.[/quote]
This is what God says about death: Ecc. 9:5-6 For the LIVING KNOW THAT THEY SHALL DIE; but the DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the son. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it. The spirit is not the same as the soul/body. The soul is breath life as it says in Genesis 2:7 so when a man quits breathing; everything he is/was is dead. Nothing is said in Scripture as to the spirit apart from the body, either before their union, which made man "a living soul" or after the union is broken, when man becomes a "dead soul". Where scripture is silent -- we remain silent.
The resurrection is when the dead rise that is what resurrection means; this corruptible must put on incorruption before it can be resurrected. Shroom2 and I do not assume anything - this is what God says.
Satan is still changing the truth of God's word as he did in the garden with Eve and people are still believing his lies.
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This story concerning Saul and the witch of Endor and the calling up of Samuel and what was communicated has no value in scripture if this was a demon. If a demon then we have to give demons and the kingdom of darkness credit in predicting the future and also the power and ability to carry it out or give to them the ability of foreknowledge. If we do that then we are ascribing to them an attribute of God that does not belong to them. To say that a demon was able to figured this all out (in the realm of the senses with some observable facts concerning the condition of Israel and their king) and was able to predict three specifics events that would happen the following day, the death of Saul, the death of his sons, the the subjugation of Israel to the Philistines, demonstrates more than the power of deductive reasoning. God was able to deliver Israel, His elect, from the hands of the Philistines as He did before because of David who would be their king shortly, but chose not to through His own providential plan. To say that God's providence was easily figured out and demonstrated with accurate predictions by demons is beyond even the capacity of a witch and her craft.
It was Samuel, when he was living and functioning as the prophet to Saul, that spoke to Saul in (1Sam 15:23) and said...
For rebellion [is as] the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness [is as] iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from [being] king.
Did Samuel speak this from divine viewpoint or from human viewpoint? It was Saul's rebellion and stubbornness that caused him to reject the word of the Lord and cut him off being king and leading Israel. Saul was accustomed to hearing from Samuel for guidance when he inquired of God for Israel, but because of being cut off he was in confusion and did not have the assurance of the word of God through Samuel, who had died. Saul had no one to fall back on for guidance and that took him to the truth of (1Sam 15:23) and inquired of a familiar spirit to bring up Samuel.
When Samuel was brought up, there was nothing to indicate that it was a demon spirit other than to speculate that, because of the familiar spirit Saul consulted. There was nothing to indicate that it was not Samuel being brought up and disquieted from his place of rest. The scripture that are written in this passage (1Sam 28) use his name (4) times without referring to any other entity whatsoever. I believe it was Samuel and do not have to speculate, neither did Saul speculate either because in (v.14) the scriptures testify this...
And he said unto her, What form [is] he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he [is] covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it [was] Samuel, and he stooped with [his] face to the ground, and bowed himself.
The word perceived is yada, Qal Imperfect - which means to know and have discernment based on first hand knowledge. This is why Saul asked the witch of Endor in (v.14), 'What form is he of'? He was asking what shape Samuel appeared and she replied, 'An old man covered with a mantle'. Your going to try and tell me that it was an appearance of deception, a counterfeit disguise that would deceive the woman and one that Saul would fall for. This word yada, translated 'perceive' refutes any claim that this was anything or anyone else but Samuel. Saul had prior knowledge of Samuel and discerned that it was him, especially when Samuel spoke to him about the future condition of his family and of Israel and what God had done in taking the kingdom from him. Never has there been a time when the devil or demons have confirmed the word of God without adding or subtracting from it, and certainly have never prophesied any events that only the God could have brought to past.
It was Samuel, when he was living and functioning as the prophet to Saul, that spoke to Saul in (1Sam 15:23) and said...
For rebellion [is as] the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness [is as] iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from [being] king.
Did Samuel speak this from divine viewpoint or from human viewpoint? It was Saul's rebellion and stubbornness that caused him to reject the word of the Lord and cut him off being king and leading Israel. Saul was accustomed to hearing from Samuel for guidance when he inquired of God for Israel, but because of being cut off he was in confusion and did not have the assurance of the word of God through Samuel, who had died. Saul had no one to fall back on for guidance and that took him to the truth of (1Sam 15:23) and inquired of a familiar spirit to bring up Samuel.
When Samuel was brought up, there was nothing to indicate that it was a demon spirit other than to speculate that, because of the familiar spirit Saul consulted. There was nothing to indicate that it was not Samuel being brought up and disquieted from his place of rest. The scripture that are written in this passage (1Sam 28) use his name (4) times without referring to any other entity whatsoever. I believe it was Samuel and do not have to speculate, neither did Saul speculate either because in (v.14) the scriptures testify this...
And he said unto her, What form [is] he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he [is] covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it [was] Samuel, and he stooped with [his] face to the ground, and bowed himself.
The word perceived is yada, Qal Imperfect - which means to know and have discernment based on first hand knowledge. This is why Saul asked the witch of Endor in (v.14), 'What form is he of'? He was asking what shape Samuel appeared and she replied, 'An old man covered with a mantle'. Your going to try and tell me that it was an appearance of deception, a counterfeit disguise that would deceive the woman and one that Saul would fall for. This word yada, translated 'perceive' refutes any claim that this was anything or anyone else but Samuel. Saul had prior knowledge of Samuel and discerned that it was him, especially when Samuel spoke to him about the future condition of his family and of Israel and what God had done in taking the kingdom from him. Never has there been a time when the devil or demons have confirmed the word of God without adding or subtracting from it, and certainly have never prophesied any events that only the God could have brought to past.
I
I can't believe this thread is still being discussed. On second thought...Yes I can. Doctrine always seems to take precedence over TRUTH. Jesus Himself has made it very clear that the souls of the dead continue to have expression, feelings, thought and memories...and the soul sleepers continue to spit in His face and label Him a LIAR by calling His account of such things a parable. In this case that's just a nice way of calling Jesus a LIAR.
I continue to bring this up because until soul sleepers can explain how Jesus is not a liar if the following statement is not true, then they would be wise to keep their mouths shut on the subject until they do.
LUKE 16:25-26
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
Jesus said Abraham spoke these words!
Soul Sleepers say "Abraham did not speak these words!"
This should end the debate.
I continue to bring this up because until soul sleepers can explain how Jesus is not a liar if the following statement is not true, then they would be wise to keep their mouths shut on the subject until they do.
LUKE 16:25-26
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
Jesus said Abraham spoke these words!
Soul Sleepers say "Abraham did not speak these words!"
This should end the debate.
It has a lot of value. From it we can learn how certain devil spirits operate.
No, we don't.
No, it doesn't.
God was NOT able to help Israel because Saul had turned away from God.
No, it isn't.
Red, you make all these authoritative sounding statements and they are nothing but your opinion founded on incorrect understanding of scripture.
That's what he thought he was doing, but as you noted, Samuel had died. He was dead. The woman with a devil spirit simply brought up another devil spirit that impersonated Samuel. That's what "familiar spirits" do.
Saul, a man who had abandoned God, and was absolutely disobeying God by consulting a woman with a devil spirit, "perceived" that it was Samuel??? That's your proof?
Absolutely. Demons fool people all the time. Why do you think people believe seances are real? Demons are very good at what they do.
I'll pray for you, Red. It was a demon. Samuel was, and still is, dead.
No, we don't.
No, it doesn't.
God was NOT able to help Israel because Saul had turned away from God.
No, it isn't.
Red, you make all these authoritative sounding statements and they are nothing but your opinion founded on incorrect understanding of scripture.
That's what he thought he was doing, but as you noted, Samuel had died. He was dead. The woman with a devil spirit simply brought up another devil spirit that impersonated Samuel. That's what "familiar spirits" do.
Saul, a man who had abandoned God, and was absolutely disobeying God by consulting a woman with a devil spirit, "perceived" that it was Samuel??? That's your proof?
Absolutely. Demons fool people all the time. Why do you think people believe seances are real? Demons are very good at what they do.
I'll pray for you, Red. It was a demon. Samuel was, and still is, dead.
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