Are the dead dead or do they keep on liveing?..............

[shroom2]

Classic. You have posted almost every scripture erroneously used to "prove" that death is not death.

Here is the bible speaking and disproving soul sleep.

Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

It is a parable.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

When a person with holy spirit dies, that spirit returns to God. The person does not.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Jesus was DEAD for three days and three nights. The comma in that verse, which was added by the translators, is in the wrong place. The thief WILL BE in paradise when paraside becomes available.

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

Paul received revelation concerning what the future heaven and earth will be like.

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

When Christ returns, we will indeed be absent from these bodies and present with the Lord. When a Christian dies, his next conscious thought will be the return of Christ.

Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

I too would like to depart and be with Christ. That will happen when he returns.

Mar 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Again, the context is the coming future resurrections.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

John was receiving a vision. Revelation.

Death is an enemy, not the doorway to paradise.

Immediate life after death is a lie.

 

[Spiritual_Plague]

Shroom,

In the 2nd Cor 12 you passed over it too quickly.


Paul says he knew a man who went to heaven....either in his body or "out of his body"- he wasn't sure. How could someone be out of their body and be conscious of things that were said and then come back from heaven to tell about it???

Visiting heaven "out of their body" ???

 

[shroom2]

Shroom,

In the 2nd Cor 12 you passed over it too quickly.


Paul says he knew a man who went to heaven....either in his body or "out of his body"- he wasn't sure. How could someone be out of their body and be conscious of things that were said and then come back from heaven to tell about it???

Visiting heaven "out of their body" ???

Paul received a vision. Revelation. Just as Peter did when God let down the sheet full of unclean animals in Acts 10.

Also, the third heaven and earth aren't here yet. They show up in Rev 21. God gave Paul a "picture" of what it will be like.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

That is written from the perspective of the man who walks under the sun. It is describing the state of the flesh.

The same book also says this.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

What do you mean "it is written from the perspective of the man who walks under the sun."?

Let me ask you this do you believe Ecc. 1:4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth forever.? We see this as each year passes.

Or this: Ecc. 3:1-4 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven. A time to be born and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted: a time to kill and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; etc. And we see this all the time.

But you don't want to believe this Ecc. 9:4-6,10 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the LIVING know that they shall DIE: but the DEAD NO NOTHING, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love and their hatred and their envy is now PERISHED; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do do it with thy might; for there is NO WORK, NOR DEVICE, NOR KNOWLEDGE, NOR WISDOM IN THE GRAVE WHITHER THOU GOEST.

And these other verses concerning death: Psalm 30:9 What profit is there in my blood when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust PRAISE thee? shall it DECLARE thy truth? No because the DEAD NO NOTHING.
Psalm 104:29b thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
Psalm 115:17 The DEAD PRAISE NOT THE LORD neither any that go down into SILENCE.
Psalm 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; IN THAT VERY DAY HIS THOUGHTS PERISH.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. dust to dust -- nothing is said in Scripture as to the spirit apart from the body, either before their union, which made man "a living soul" or after the union is broken, when man becomes a "dead soul". Where scripture is silent -- we remain silent.

These are very clear verses regarding death. These scriptures on the subject of death have to carry out throughout scripture for there to be no contradictions. Lazarus and the rich man is a parable.


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[Red33]

Excuse me?

Abraham is DEAD. He will be raised at the first resurrection. Jesus told a parable to make the point that even though a person was raised, people would still not believe. Read v31. He was right.

You are the one forcing your beliefs into scripture to make it say what you already believe, that dead people aren't really dead.

So Christ took a dead Abraham and a dead beggar Lazarus and a dead rich man, made them have a conversation, spoke of one being comforted and the other being tormented in flames and wanting water for the tongue, spoke of a great gulf that was fixed between them and none of it was really true, it was just fictitious and all made up by the Lord to illustrate (v.31). You are not thinking right and you are not excused, because you are in tremendous error and are too proud to realize it. You should be admonished for your lack of understanding about what happens to the dead according to the scriptures.

 

[shroom2]

So Christ took a dead Abraham and a dead beggar Lazarus and a dead rich man, made them have a conversation, spoke of one being comforted and the other being tormented in flames and wanting water for the tongue, spoke of a great gulf that was fixed between them and none of it was really true, it was just fictitious and all made up by the Lord to illustrate (v.31).

I think you've got it.

You are not thinking right and you are not excused, because you are in tremendous error and are too proud to realize it. You should be admonished for your lack of understanding about what happens to the dead according to the scriptures.

Oops, I guess you don't. You should be admonished for your lack of understanding about what happens to the dead according to the scriptures.

When people die, they are dead, and will remain so until one of the upcoming resurrections.

 

[babyboyblue]

God said: You will die
Satan said: You will not surely die

Seems most people believe the later.

 

[shroom2]

God said: You will die
Satan said: You will not surely die

Seems most people believe the later.

Unfortunatly you are right.

 

[krisbrian]

Unfortunatly you are right.

Fortunately he is wrong...

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.....Obviously Jesus wasnt talking about the flesh because everybody dies in the flesh whether you believe in him or not. He didnt say you would perish temporarily, he said you will NOT perish.

I guess people who believe in soul sleep will be all dressed up with no place to go when they die.

 

[krisbrian]

Deu 34:7 And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.

Luk 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

Moses doesnt sound too dead to me. I guess the mount of transfiguration was a parable lol.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Deu 34:7 And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.

Luk 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

Moses doesnt sound too dead to me. I guess the mount of transfiguration was a parable lol.

Let's look at this record in Matt. 17:1-9

In v.3 the word translated "appeared" is the Greek word optamai which means "seeing objectively" or "envisioning". Peter, James, and John did not see this literally with their eyes but rather in their minds. v. 9 goes on to say that it was a vision. The words "trance" and "vision" are used synonymously in the Bible and are used when god by revelation gives a panoramic picture of a situation. God simply gave a vision of Moses and Elijah to Jesus who had gone up on the mountain to consider his death.

Matt. 17:9 . . . .Tell the vision to no man. . . . .

And that is in line with other scriptures concerning death.

 

[krisbrian]

Soul sleep is not a new false doctrine so I know that no matter what verse I through out there, soul sleepers have a rebuttal waiting. Thats what happens when a false doctrine has been around for awhile. People come up with sneaky, clever, deceitful ways to try and explain away the verses that destroy their doctrines. Its obvious everyone in this thread has their mind made up as to what they believe so we will just have to wait and see who is right and who is wrong.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Soul sleep is not a new false doctrine so I know that no matter what verse I through out there, soul sleepers have a rebuttal waiting. Thats what happens when a false doctrine has been around for awhile. People come up with sneaky, clever, deceitful ways to try and explain away the verses that destroy their doctrines. Its obvious everyone in this thread has their mind made up as to what they believe so we will just have to wait and see who is right and who is wrong.

I came up with a sneaky, clever, deceitful way to explain the transfiguration? I believe I just used the context and let scripture speak for itself.

We either believe what the word of God says or we don't. That is our only basis for truth.

Doesn't God call death "sleep"?

 

[krisbrian]

I came up with a sneaky, clever, deceitful way to explain the transfiguration? I believe I just used the context and let scripture speak for itself.

We either believe what the word of God says or we don't. That is our only basis for truth.

Doesn't God call death "sleep"?

I wasn't necessarily talking just about your post, thats why I didn't quote you. I'm talking about all the rebuttals in general.

 

[krisbrian]

We either believe what the word of God says or we don't. That is our only basis for truth.

Exactly, thats why I have no choice but to reject soul sleep. Its the flesh that "sleeps"

 

[Red33]

I think you've got it.


Oops, I guess you don't. You should be admonished for your lack of understanding about what happens to the dead according to the scriptures.

When people die, they are dead, and will remain so until one of the upcoming resurrections.

You are admitting that you believe that the soul sleeps with the body in the grave. You are also telling us that the specifics detailed and contained (which are many) in the story of Abraham's bosom and the rich man in (Lk 16:22-31) are not biblically true and were fictitiously made up by our Lord. Don't the scriptures teach us that Jesus, himself, said that the words I speak unto you are spirit and life (Jn 6:63)? Why should we believe that what he spoke in (Lk 16) was not life? Wouldn't we have to presume against the words of Christ to think otherwise?

According to you, the story of Saul calling up Samuel through the witch of Endor in (1Sam 28:7-25) was also a fabrication, who prophesied concerning to death of Saul which came to pass the very next day. Are we also to consider this a false fabricated story that contained no truth concerning Samuel being disquieted and seen as an old man covered with a mantle, for how could such a thing truly happen if Samuel was dead both soul and body in the grave and the resurrection had not happened yet?

The same must hold true with the story of Jesus, who was transfigured on the mount with the likes of Moses and Elijah, who were witnessed by three disciples and confirmed by the voice of God in (Mk 9:1-10). Was this recorded instance on that mount only a vision of fabrication that really did not involve the likes of Moses and Elijah and are we to garner no truth from the transfiguration that involved these men and not just our Lord? In (v.4) the scriptures record that Moses and Elijah were actually talking with Jesus, but you want us to believe that it really did not happen but was only a fabricated vision that three disciples witnessed and were not to take to heart as having any truth. Look at (v.10).

You insult every student of God's word with your presumption concerning the dead and these stories that contradict your doctrine and understanding about death. And you likewise diminish the precious value that God has put on the death of His saints in (Ps 116:15), you want us to think it to be something else... You make suspect the death of our Lord Jesus as to where He was those three days when His body was laying in the tomb. You make suspect and irrelevant what He told the malefactor on the cross in (Lk 23:43) that he would that day be with him in paradise. That word paradise has nothing to do with death in the grave.

You also discredit the meaning of (2Cor 5:8) with Paul's exclamation to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. According to your doctrine it is impossible for anyone, who has a soul, to be separated from their body, from the time of birth, to death, to resurrection and to glorification. With that being true in your understanding, what was Paul applying his statement to when he said, 'to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.' When could that have taken place, at what stage, other than at the time of physical death?

Your doctrine is not according to the doctrine of Christ and it persuades others away from the truth of our own Lord's death, burial and resurrection. You need to seriously reconsider not just your understanding, but the position it puts you in, in your relationship to Christ and other believers.

 

[shroom2]

You are admitting that you believe that the soul sleeps with the body in the grave. You are also telling us that the specifics detailed and contained (which are many) in the story of Abraham's bosom and the rich man in (Lk 16:22-31) are not biblically true and were fictitiously made up by our Lord. Don't the scriptures teach us that Jesus, himself, said that the words I speak unto you are spirit and life (Jn 6:63)? Why should we believe that what he spoke in (Lk 16) was not life? Wouldn't we have to presume against the words of Christ to think otherwise?

According to you, the story of Saul calling up Samuel through the witch of Endor in (1Sam 28:7-25) was also a fabrication, who prophesied concerning to death of Saul which came to pass the very next day. Are we also to consider this a false fabricated story that contained no truth concerning Samuel being disquieted and seen as an old man covered with a mantle, for how could such a thing truly happen if Samuel was dead both soul and body in the grave and the resurrection had not happened yet?

It was not Samuel, it was a devil spirit. Why do you think God forbids contacting the dead? Because you CAN'T. Dead people are dead. When your grandma is summoned from the dead in a seance, it's not her, it's a demon.

The same must hold true with the story of Jesus, who was transfigured on the mount with the likes of Moses and Elijah, who were witnessed by three disciples and confirmed by the voice of God in (Mk 9:1-10). Was this recorded instance on that mount only a vision of fabrication that really did not involve the likes of Moses and Elijah and are we to garner no truth from the transfiguration that involved these men and not just our Lord? In (v.4) the scriptures record that Moses and Elijah were actually talking with Jesus, but you want us to believe that it really did not happen but was only a fabricated vision that three disciples witnessed and were not to take to heart as having any truth. Look at (v.10).

It was a vision.

Matt 17:9) And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

You insult every student of God's word with your presumption concerning the dead and these stories that contradict your doctrine and understanding about death. And you likewise diminish the precious value that God has put on the death of His saints in (Ps 116:15)

It should be "costly", not "precious". It costs God something when a believer dies. Why? Because when you're dead, you cannot do anything for Him. You are dead.

you want us to think it to be something else... You make suspect the death of our Lord Jesus as to where He was those three days when His body was laying in the tomb. You make suspect and irrelevant what He told the malefactor on the cross in (Lk 23:43) that he would that day be with him in paradise. That word paradise has nothing to do with death in the grave.

Right. When Jesus Christ died, he was dead. 100% dead. He didn't do anything for three days and three nights. Paradise is still future. The thief will assuredly be there, but for now, he is dead.

You also discredit the meaning of (2Cor 5:8) with Paul's exclamation to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. According to your doctrine it is impossible for anyone, who has a soul, to be separated from their body, from the time of birth, to death, to resurrection and to glorification. With that being true in your understanding, what was Paul applying his statement to when he said, 'to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.' When could that have taken place, at what stage, other than at the time of physical death?

It will happen when Christ returns for the church, when "the dead in Christ shall rise".

Your doctrine is not according to the doctrine of Christ

I believe that it is.

and it persuades others away from the truth of our own Lord's death, burial and resurrection. You need to seriously reconsider not just your understanding, but the position it puts you in, in your relationship to Christ and other believers.

I am trying to help people to understand the truth. Unfortunately, most choose to believe the devil's lie that when you die you aren't dead.

 

[krisbrian]

They were talking with him. Just because it was a vision doesn't mean it wasn't real.

Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Vision
G3705
ὅραμα
horama
hor'-am-ah
From G3708; something gazed at, that is, a spectacle (especially supernatural): - sight, vision.

 

[shroom2]

They were talking with him. Just because it was a vision doesn't mean it wasn't real.

Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Vision
G3705
ὅραμα
horama
hor'-am-ah
From G3708; something gazed at, that is, a spectacle (especially supernatural): - sight, vision.

Do you believe God actually lowered a sheet from the sky for Peter in Acts 10?

If dead people aren't dead, what is the need for a resurrection? What is your definition of the word "resurrection"?

 

[krisbrian]

Do you believe God actually lowered a sheet from the sky for Peter in Acts 10?

If dead people aren't dead, what is the need for a resurrection? What is your definition of the word "resurrection"?

Definition of resurrection? Jesus Christ

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.