Are the dead dead or do they keep on liveing?..............

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LawofLove

Guest
#21
Dead people sure do a whole lot of talking...

Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
In this parable Jesus continues the lesson set forth in the parable of the Dishonest Steward (ch. 16:1–12), that the use made of the opportunities of the present life determines future destiny

That parable had been addressed particularly to the disciples (see on v. 1), but in v. 9 Jesus had turned from the disciples to the Pharisees present (see on v. 9). The Pharisees refused to accept Jesus’ teachings on stewardship and sneered at Him (see v. 14). Jesus then pointed out that they might be honored by men, but that God read their hearts like an open book (see on v. 15). They had had sufficient light; they had long enjoyed the instruction of “the law and the prophets,” and since the ministry of John the added light of the gospel had been theirs (see on v. 16). In vs. 17, 18 Jesus affirms that the principles set forth in “the law” are immutable—God has not changed—and gives an example of this sublime truth. The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is then given to show that destiny is decided in this present life by the use made of its privileges and opportunities
The parable consists of two scenes, one representing this life (vs. 19–22), and another the next (vs. 23–31). The parable of the Dishonest Steward approached the problem from the positive point of view, that is, from the point of view of one who did make preparations for the future. The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus approaches the same problem from the negative point of view, that is, from the point of view of one who failed to make such preparation. The rich man erred in thinking that salvation is based on Abrahamic descent rather than upon character ( Eze. 18).​
Like all other parables, that of the Rich Man and Lazarus must be interpreted in harmony with its context and with the general tenor of Scripture. One of the most important principles of interpretation is that each parable was designed to teach one fundamental truth, and that the details of the parable need not necessarily have significance in themselves, except as “props” for the story.

In other words, the details of a parable must not be pressed as having a literal meaning in terms of spiritual truth unless the context makes clear that such a meaning is intended. Out of this principle grows another—that it is not wise to use the details of a parable to teach doctrine. Only the fundamental teaching of a parable as clearly set forth in its context and confirmed by the general tenor of Scripture, together with details explained in the context itself, may legitimately be considered a basis for doctrine.



 
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luciddream1982

Guest
#22
In this parable



And right from the start we disagree. I dont believe it was a parable. Jesus never said it was a parable and in no parable does Jesus ever mention a real name.

Lazarus was in paradise

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
 
S

sunshine_debbie

Guest
#24
And right from the start we disagree. I dont believe it was a parable. Jesus never said it was a parable and in no parable does Jesus ever mention a real name.

Lazarus was in paradise

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Just because Jesus took the thief on the cross to paradise with him does not mean that everyone else goes there when they die. Jesus has done many things for Godly men that do not apply to others. For example, Enoch never died, he walked with God and went to heaven without death.

The Bible states in no uncertain terms that fornication and adultery are serious sins. However, Jesus cleansed the woman at the well from her prostitution and adultery. So perhaps when seeking an answer, it is best to go EXACTLY by the words of the Bible and not summaries, interpretations, or guesses as to the answer to this question.
 
I

Israel

Guest
#25
For those who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, are they considered dead? And for the rest who are still dead in trespasses, does not the bible state that the rest of the dead lived not until 1000 years have ended?
 
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luciddream1982

Guest
#26
So perhaps when seeking an answer, it is best to go EXACTLY by the words of the Bible and not summaries, interpretations, or guesses as to the answer to this question.
I agree and thats why I rest my case.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Even satan is not dead yet. You mean to tell me God will allow his children that love him to lay dead in a grave while Satan lives? What kind of a God do you worship? Because its not the God of the above verses
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#27
And right from the start we disagree. I dont believe it was a parable. Jesus never said it was a parable and in no parable does Jesus ever mention a real name.

Lazarus was in paradise

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Punctuation is not part of the original writing it was put in by the translators so it could read like this
Luke 23:43
(43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, thou
shalt be with me in paradise.

Because Jesus did not go to paradise that day that means that the thief on the cross did not go either
John 20:17
(17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


 
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luciddream1982

Guest
#28
Punctuation is not part of the original writing it was put in by the translators so it could read like this
Luke 23:43
(43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, thou
shalt be with me in paradise.

Because Jesus did not go to paradise that day that means that the thief on the cross did not go either
John 20:17
(17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


Just because it could read like that doesn't mean it should.

He didn't "ascend" into paradise, he "descended".

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also DESCENDED FIRST into the LOWER parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

"lower" means hades

G2737
κατώτερος
katōteros
kat-o'-ter-os
Compound from G2736; inferior (locally, of Hades): - lower.

Hades was separated into two parts. The good side, Abraham's bosom or "paradise" is where lazarus and the thief went, and the bad side "hell" is where the rich man went.
 
B

babyboyblue

Guest
#29
Just because it could read like that doesn't mean it should.

He didn't "ascend" into paradise, he "descended".

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also DESCENDED FIRST into the LOWER parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

"lower" means hades

G2737
κατώτερος
katōteros
kat-o'-ter-os
Compound from G2736; inferior (locally, of Hades): - lower.

Hades was separated into two parts. The good side, Abraham's bosom or "paradise" is where lazarus and the thief went, and the bad side "hell" is where the rich man went.
Descend into paradise?

Eph 4:8 - He was placed on the cross and by his crucifixion he led captivity captive and gave us the greatest sacrifice
Eph 4:9 - He is now ascended to Paradise, but he was first descended into the grave
Eph 4:10 - He rose from the grave and is now gone to Heaven to complete the work of salvation

The story concerning abraham's bosom is metaphorically enlightening.
 
L

luciddream1982

Guest
#30
Descend into paradise?

Eph 4:8 - He was placed on the cross and by his crucifixion he led captivity captive and gave us the greatest sacrifice
Eph 4:9 - He is now ascended to Paradise, but he was first descended into the grave
Eph 4:10 - He rose from the grave and is now gone to Heaven to complete the work of salvation

The story concerning abraham's bosom is metaphorically enlightening.
When believers died before Christ they went to Abraham's bosom (paradise) which was located in hades because....

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins

.....So Jesus descended into hades to the side with the believers and brought them into heaven. Hence....Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive,

The believers who died were in hades (although the good side) because once again...

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Only the blood of Christ could truly take away sins.
 
B

babyboyblue

Guest
#31
When believers died before Christ they went to Abraham's bosom (paradise) which was located in hades because....

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins

.....So Jesus descended into hades to the side with the believers and brought them into heaven. Hence....Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive,

The believers who died were in hades (although the good side) because once again...

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Only the blood of Christ could truly take away sins.
So, back in the day when good people died the went to the "good side" of hades and waited until Jesus came to earth and died so he can come to the "good side" and take them to the "real" paradise? So, what was the "good side" of hades called before Abraham? Where did Adam and Eve and Able go?

Today (after Jesus) when a person dies they go straight to the "real" paradise?
 
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luciddream1982

Guest
#32
So, back in the day when good people died the went to the "good side" of hades and waited until Jesus came to earth and died so he can come to the "good side" and take them to the "real" paradise? So, what was the "good side" of hades called before Abraham? Where did Adam and Eve and Able go?

Today (after Jesus) when a person dies they go straight to the "real" paradise?
You can call it paradise, bosom of Abraham, Good side of Hades, or whatever you want to. Fact is, it was a place. Believers could not go to heaven because ONCE AGAIN....Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

They could only cover their sins before Jesus died on the cross. Only Jesus could actually take the sins away.

Jesus never said it was a parable and not once did Jesus mention an actual name in a parable.
 
B

babyboyblue

Guest
#33
You can call it paradise, bosom of Abraham, Good side of Hades, or whatever you want to. Fact is, it was a place. Believers could not go to heaven because ONCE AGAIN....Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

They could only cover their sins before Jesus died on the cross. Only Jesus could actually take the sins away.

Jesus never said it was a parable and not once did Jesus mention an actual name in a parable.
I agree with everything you said here.
 
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LawofLove

Guest
#34
And right from the start we disagree. I dont believe it was a parable. Jesus never said it was a parable and in no parable does Jesus ever mention a real name. Lazarus was in paradise[/qoute]

Attention is called to the fact that Jesus does not state that the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, at least apparently in so far as Luke’s account goes (although one ancient manuscript [D] does call it a parable), whereas, elsewhere parables are usually so labeled (Matt. 13:3, 24, 33, 44, 45, 47). But it should be pointed out that although Jesus usually introduced a parable either by stating that it was a parable or by saying that the kingdom of heaven was like a person or a thing in the specific circumstances He then proceeded to relate, He did not always do so (see Luke 15:8, 11; 16:1 for examples). The same is true of various OT parables such as those of Judges 9:8–15 and 2 Kings 14:9, yet no one professes to believe that because these parables are not clearly labeled as such they are to be taken literally. The fallacy of such an argument is rendered obvious by a mere reading of the few references cited.

The poor man had suffered day by day, but he had patiently and quietly endured. In the course of time he died and was buried.... But by his patience in suffering he had witnessed for Christ, he had endured the test of his faith, and at his death he is represented as being carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom.



Lazarus represents the suffering poor who believe in Christ. When the trumpet sounds and all that are in the graves hear Christ’s voice and come forth, they will receive their reward; for their faith in God was not a mere theory, but a reality. Everyone receive their reward at the same time good or bad(mat16:27;Rev 11:18;Rev 22:12). Luke 16:23 It is in the “hell” of geenna that sinners are to experience fiery torments (see on Matt. 5:22), not in hadēs.!






Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.




The only way of knowing which Christ meant is to discover scriptural answers to some other questions: (1) What is paradise? (2) Did Jesus go to paradise on the day of His crucifixion? (3) What did Jesus teach about the time when men would enter upon their reward in paradise?

(1) What is paradise?Paradise. Gr. paradeisos, a transliteration of the Persian pairidaêza, meaning an “enclosure,” “park,” or “preserve” containing trees, in which animals were often kept for the hunt. It was enclosed by walls and sometimes furnished with towers for the hunters. The equivalent Hebrew word, pardes, is translated “forest,” or “orchard” Gr. Greek.




In the NT paradeisos occurs only in Luke 23:43; 2 Cor. 12:4; Rev. 2:7. In 2 Cor. 12:2–4 “paradise” is obviously synonymous with “heaven.” NT New Testament.





When Jesus assured the thief of a place with Him in “paradise,” He referred to the “many mansions” of His “Father’s house” and to the time when He would “receive” unto Himself His own (see on John 14:1–3). Throughout His ministry Jesus had specifically stated that He would “reward every man according to his works” when He returned in triumph “in the glory of his Father with his angels” (see on Matt. 16:27). Not until that time will He invite the saved of earth to “inherit the kingdom prepared for” them “from the foundation of the world” (see on Matt. 25:31, 34; cf. Rev. 22:21). Paul taught that those who fall asleep in Jesus will come forth from their graves at Christ’s second coming (see 1 Cor. 15:20–23) to receive immortality (vs. 51–55). The resurrected righteous and righteous living will “be caught up together … to meet the Lord in the air,” and thus “ever be with the Lord” (1 Thess. 4:16, 17). The thief will, accordingly, be “with” Jesus in “paradise” following the resurrection of the just, at His second coming. cf. confer, “compare”

vs. verses





(2) Did Jesus go to paradise on the day of His crucifixion?Luke 23:46 He gave up the ghost. Literally, “He expired,” that is, “he breathed out.” This dos not mean he went to heaven! The bible tells us when Jesus went to heaven in Acts chapter 1. So there is no way they could see each other in heaven the same day, both the thief and Christ when they died that day.

To understand this much clearer we need to look at a few verses, I am sure your thinking of Ecc 12:7


The spirit. Heb. ruach, “breath,” “wind,” “spirit” (see on Num. 5:14). Ruach is translated “breath” of the body 33 times, as in Eze. 37:5; “wind” 117 times, as in Gen. 8:1; “spirit” 76 times, in the sense of vitality (Judges 15:19), “courage” (Joshua 2:11), temper, or “anger” (Judges 8:3), and in reference to the disposition (Isa. 54:6). Ruach is also used to describe the living principle in men and animals 25 times, as in Ps. 146:4; the seat of the emotions 3 times, as in 1 Sam. 1:15; the “mind” 9 times, as in Eze. 11:5; will or volition, or “heart” (2 Chron. 29:31) 3 times; moral character 16 times, as in Eze. 11:19; and of the Spirit of God 94 times, as in Isa. 63:10. In not one of the 379 instances of its use throughout the OT does ruach denote an intelligent entity capable of existence apart from a physical body, so far as man is concerned, and it must therefore be clear that such a concept is without basis so far as the teachings of the Scriptures themselves are concerned (see also on Gen. 2:7; 35:18; Num. 5:14; Eccl. 3:19–21; cf. on Num. 5:2; 9:6). That which here returns to God is simply the life principle imparted by God to both man and beast (see on Eccl. 3:19–21, where ruach is translated “breath”).​
Heb. Hebrew

OT Old Testament

cf. confer, “compare”

(3)What did Jesus teach about the time when men would enter upon their reward in paradise?On the eve of the betrayal—less than 24 hours before making this promise to the thief—Jesus had told the Twelve, “In my Father’s house are many mansions. … I go to prepare a place for you. … I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also” (see on John 14:1–3). Yet, three days later Jesus informed Mary, “I am not yet ascended to my Father” (John 20:17). Obviously, therefore, Jesus did not go to paradise, and was not in paradise, on the day of His crucifixion. Accordingly, the thief could not have been with Jesus in paradise.​
 
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luciddream1982

Guest
#35
Well, I've made my points. I don't really have anything more to say. We just have to agree to disagree.

....one more thing, maybe the "good side of Hades" or "Abrahams bosom" shouldn't be called paradise. Jesus never specifically called it paradise. Maybe when Jesus told the thief that on this day he would see him in paradise...he meant after he descended into hades and took the people in the bosom of abraham to "heaven" or "paradise" when he led the captives captive.
 
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LawofLove

Guest
#36
Well, I've made my points. I don't really have anything more to say. We just have to agree to disagree.

....one more thing, maybe the "good side of Hades" or "Abrahams bosom" shouldn't be called paradise. Jesus never specifically called it paradise. Maybe when Jesus told the thief that on this day he would see him in paradise...he meant after he descended into hades and took the people in the bosom of abraham to "heaven" or "paradise" when he led the captives captive.
Did you read my last post sorry it took so long but had to find all the verses!
 
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luciddream1982

Guest
#37
Did you read my last post sorry it took so long but had to find all the verses!
yeah, I read it. I appreciate the effort you went through but I still believe what I said.

I mean why was Jesus in the grave for three days? What was he doing for three days? Just laying there dead?
 
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luciddream1982

Guest
#38
Punctuation is not part of the original writing it was put in by the translators so it could read like this
Luke 23:43
(43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, thou
shalt be with me in paradise.

And why would Jesus feel the need to point out "I say unto thee to day". Why would Jesus need to point out that he is saying this "Today"....its obvious he is talking to the thief "Today". I cant think of any other place when Jesus says, "I say unto thee today"
 
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LawofLove

Guest
#39
yeah, I read it. I appreciate the effort you went through but I still believe what I said.

I mean why was Jesus in the grave for three days? What was he doing for three days? Just laying there dead?

That's cool that you ask that because the Sabbath is a day of rest He died Friday night! Which is the start of the Sabbath. Jesus had to take on our sins and that means total separation from God but because Jesus did no wrong in his life, death had no hold on Him!1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? Jesus had to stay dead for 3 days for a # of reasons one being because it was even more proof He was dead... Anyways Thanks for the reply! God bless thanks for studying :)
 
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luciddream1982

Guest
#40
Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

How can you commend something that has "expired" into Gods hand? That just doesn't make sense to me.