Are the dead dead or do they keep on liveing?..............

[luciddream1982]

One other thing....I'm just curious for an explanation as to what Jesus was talking about here?

Mar 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

 

[LawofLove]

When believers died before Christ they went to Abraham's bosom (paradise) which was located in hades because....

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins

.....So Jesus descended into hades to the side with the believers and brought them into heaven. Hence....Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive,

The believers who died were in hades (although the good side) because once again...

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Only the blood of Christ could truly take away sins.

While commentators generally agree upon the meaning of the "Bosom of Abraham", they disagree about its origins. Up to the time of Maldonatus (A.D. 1583), its origin was traced back[citation needed] to the universal custom of parents to take up into their arms, or place upon their knees, their children when they are fatigued, or return home, and to make them rest by their side during the night (cf. 2 Samuel 12:3;[4] 1 Kings 3:20; 17:19; Luke 11:7 sqq.), thus causing them to enjoy rest and security in the bosom of a loving parent. After the same manner was Abraham supposed to act towards his children after the fatigues and troubles of the present life, hence the metaphorical expression "to be in Abraham's Bosom" as meaning to be in repose and happiness with him.[citation needed] Wikipeia Bosoom of Abraham

"Bosom of Abraham" refers to the place of comfort in sheol (Greek: hades) where the Jews said the righteous dead awaited Judgment Day. Wikipeia Bossom of Abraham.

 

[luciddream1982]

Could this be those that Jesus brought out of hades when he led the captives captive?

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

 

[LawofLove]

Could this be those that Jesus brought out of hades when he led the captives captive?

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

We Don't disagree here, on the other hand this would make void of him going to heaven, because here is saying he went to the (grave) or (hades) to get the keys of hell (hades) Rev 1:18. Here again geenna is the place of torment not Hades sir, If I can so humbly point out, Otherwise you would have to call Jesus a liar to the thief because it was not until Jesus came back to life on the third day then later went up in to heaven in the clouds in the book of acts therefor discounting that Jesus or anyone on earth goes right to heaven when they die. There are a few people the bible dos point out like Elijah that are in heaven with Jesus now and those you also pointed out here in the book of Matthew this does not mean they went to heaven as soon as they died they had to wait until Jesus came first her in. Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

 

[LawofLove]

We Don't disagree here, on the other hand this would make void of him going to heaven, because here is saying he went to the (grave) or (hades) to get the keys of hell (hades) Rev 1:18. Here again geenna is the place of torment not Hades sir, If I can so humbly point out, Otherwise you would have to call Jesus a liar to the thief because it was not until Jesus came back to life on the third day then later went up in to heaven in the clouds in the book of acts therefor discounting that Jesus or anyone on earth goes right to heaven when they die. There are a few people the bible dos point out like Elijah that are in heaven with Jesus now and those you also pointed out here in the book of Matthew this does not mean they went to heaven as soon as they died they had to wait until Jesus came first her in. Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.[/quot]

and those you also pointed out here in the book of Matthew[quot]

I meant to say unlike those here in Matthew above in red. They just came back to life they did not go to heaven at all.

 

[luciddream1982]

Ok, it does seem that Jesus did not ascend into heaven until after the resurrection.

I feel Jesus died, descended to Hades (bosom of Abraham), took the captivity captive, and then after the resurrection ascended into heaven, with Mat 27:52 being apart of it.

Now, there does seem to be a problem with the bosom of Abraham being paradise and located in hades when Rev 2:7 indicates paradise is in heaven. I guess paradise was just a name for a place that believers go when they died or the abode of the righteous . Before Christ it would have been in hades, after Christ it is now in Heaven.

 

[luciddream1982]

We Don't disagree here, on the other hand this would make void of him going to heaven, because here is saying he went to the (grave) or (hades) to get the keys of hell (hades) Rev 1:18. Here again geenna is the place of torment not Hades sir, If I can so humbly point out, Otherwise you would have to call Jesus a liar to the thief because it was not until Jesus came back to life on the third day then later went up in to heaven in the clouds in the book of acts therefor discounting that Jesus or anyone on earth goes right to heaven when they die. There are a few people the bible dos point out like Elijah that are in heaven with Jesus now and those you also pointed out here in the book of Matthew this does not mean they went to heaven as soon as they died they had to wait until Jesus came first her in. Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.[/quot]

and those you also pointed out here in the book of Matthew[quot]

I meant to say unlike those here in Matthew above in red. They just came back to life they did not go to heaven at all.

Yeah, its pretty obvious we dont agree on certain things but thats ok. I enjoyed the discussion.

 

[Laodicea]

Just because it could read like that doesn't mean it should.

He didn't "ascend" into paradise, he "descended".

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also DESCENDED FIRST into the LOWER parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

"lower" means hades

G2737
κατώτερος
katōteros
kat-o'-ter-os
Compound from G2736; inferior (locally, of Hades): - lower.

Hades was separated into two parts. The good side, Abraham's bosom or "paradise" is where lazarus and the thief went, and the bad side "hell" is where the rich man went.

Now you are putting your interpretation into the Bible. Paradise is where God is.
Revelation 2:7
(7) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Revelation 22:1-2
(1) And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
(2) In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Jesus made a promise to the man on the cross that day that when Jesus returns he would go to paradise.
Luke 23:42-43
(42) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
(43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

[luciddream1982]

Now you are putting your interpretation into the Bible. Paradise is where God is.
Revelation 2:7
(7) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Revelation 22:1-2
(1) And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
(2) In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Jesus made a promise to the man on the cross that day that when Jesus returns he would go to paradise.
Luke 23:42-43
(42) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
(43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Ok, fair enough. Jesus never called the bosom of Abraham paradise, maybe I shouldnt either. BUT, lets say that its true that Jesus said, "verily I say unto thee to day (not on the same day), shalt thou be with me in paradise." He may have been talking about right after the resurrection when the graves opened and he lead the captivity captive and ascended into paradise or heaven.

It would seem so unlike the nature of God for him to leave his children dead in a grave while the Devil himself lives. The bible also says "And as it is appointed unto men once to die". So you mean to tell me that those in Mathew 27:52-53 were brought to life just to die again? I think not

 

[Spiritual_Plague]

We are supposed to follow the doctrine of the apostles (2:42)...

What shatters this whole "soul sleep" idea is the fact that apostle Paul (remember- follow the doctrine of the apostles) did not believe in it. He clearly believed that if you were to be out of your body, you would be fully conscious, fully capable to perceive, experience, and remember what happened while you were out of your body.

We know he believed this because he told us...

2 Cor. 12:2-4
"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

If Paul knew and believed you won't be conscious if you were out of your body...Paul would have never said he didn't know if this guy he speaks of visited heaven while "in" his body or "out" of his body.

Yes, there is consciousness "in the body" and "out of the body".

Further more, the person Paul was talking about that visited heaven, was able to experience and perceive what was going on, and then come down "in" his body if he was "out" and tell about it.

...follow the doctrine of the apostles. Everything is better that way.

 

[luciddream1982]

Plus this...

Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

 

[Laodicea]

Ok, fair enough. Jesus never called the bosom of Abraham paradise, maybe I shouldnt either. BUT, lets say that its true that Jesus said, "verily I say unto thee to day (not on the same day), shalt thou be with me in paradise." He may have been talking about right after the resurrection when the graves opened and he lead the captivity captive and ascended into paradise or heaven.

It would seem so unlike the nature of God for him to leave his children dead in a grave while the Devil himself lives. The bible also says "And as it is appointed unto men once to die". So you mean to tell me that those in Mathew 27:52-53 were brought to life just to die again? I think not

John 5:29
(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[luciddream1982]

These scriptures seal the deal as far as I'm concerned.

Mar 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

 

[Israel]

John 8:51

51Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Revelation 20:4-5

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

[LawofLove]

These scriptures seal the deal as far as I'm concerned.

Context, Context, Context! Is what you will hear most Bible teachers say.

Mar 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

^^^>>>Here if you read Mar12:18-27; right from the start you will see they are talking of the resurrection! So when Jesus told them in verse 27 "He is not the God of the dead but the living" He is saying they will rise in the resurrection. All those who die in Christ will be resurrected! read verse 26 again the part where it says "they rise"!! Do you know why he did not just tell them they err, but he told them they "greatly err" if we miss understand death this is not good because we miss understand God and who he is.

Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Paul is not here giving a doctrinal exposition of what happens at death. He is explaining his “desire,” which is to leave his present troubled existence and to be with Christ without reference to a lapse of time that may occur between these two event. Paul’s words here have to be considered in conjunction with his other related statements where he clearly refers to death as a sleep (see on 1 Cor. 15:51; 1 Thess 4:13–15; see also on Mark 5:39; John 11:11). Since there is no consciousness in death, and hence no awareness of the lapse of time, the resurrection morning will appear to the departed one as occurring the moment after his death.


.

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Context, Context, Context. Read vs 1-2 The new body is from heaven; vs 3-4 wanting to put on immortality. Compare vs 3 and 4 with 1 cor 15:50-53. all of these verse point to the resurrection sir!

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth 2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

That Paul is speaking of himself is evident from (1) the fact that this reference to visions is in the midst of an account of events connected with his own life and ministry; (2) the fact that in v. 7 he designates these visions and revelations as made directly to himself; and (3) the fact that he uses the third person in order to avoid the appearance of boasting. John, on account of his Christian modesty and humility, similarly avoided identifying himself (John 13:23, 24; 19:26; 21:20).​

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: Read Rom 8:23
2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. Rev 3:18
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 1cor 15:53[/quote]

All these verse like I said are Assurance of the Resurrection Sir^^^^^

 

[luciddream1982]

Mar 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.


God said I AM the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. They were all dead when God spoke to moses in the bush. He didnt say he WAS the God of them or that he will be the God of them again in the future resurrection. He said I AM....which is a current state. So if God is God of the living and not of the dead, and he said I AM (present tense) the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob when they were "dead".....what does that mean? It means though their flesh is dead, they are alive and well.

ye therefore do greatly err....

 

[LawofLove]

Mar 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.


God said I AM the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. They were all dead when God spoke to moses in the bush. He didnt say he WAS the God of them or that he will be the God of them again in the future resurrection. He said I AM....which is a current state. So if God is God of the living and not of the dead, and he said I AM (present tense) the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob when they were "dead".....what does that mean? It means though their flesh is dead, they are alive and well.

ye therefore do greatly err....

Mar 12:18 Mar 12:18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,

 

[luciddream1982]

Mar 12:18 Mar 12:18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,

And Jesus said, not only is there a resurrection, they are alive now

 

[Laodicea]

And Jesus said, not only is there a resurrection, they are alive now

John 11:11-14
(11) These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
(12) Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
(13) Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
(14) Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
John 11:25-26
(25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
(26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
(5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Though people may be dead to God He does not forget them. They are alive in God even though they are dead. Instead of trying to prove doctrine we need to bring all the scripture together.

 

[Israel]

John 11:11-14
(11) These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
(12) Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
(13) Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
(14) Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
John 11:25-26
(25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
(26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
(5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Though people may be dead to God He does not forget them. They are alive in God even though they are dead. Instead of trying to prove doctrine we need to bring all the scripture together.

Is Christ in the grave? Did He not take us with Him? I will not sit in the grave. I believe Jesus! Even over Solomon and I will never see death.