Are the dead dead or do they keep on liveing?..............

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K

krisbrian

Guest
#101
#101
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
 
K

krisbrian

Guest
#102
#102
krisbrian said:
Who are these spirits in prison that were around at the time of Noah? How is it possible for spirits to be in prison and hear preaching if our souls sleep after death?

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
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This preaching occurred after Jesus's death

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#103
#103
krisbrian said:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
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John 11:25
(25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Revelation 2:11
(11) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6
(6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
krisbrian said:
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
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Genesis 4:10
(10) And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Leviticus 4:7
(7) And the priest shall put some of the blood upon the horns of the altar of sweet incense before the LORD, which is in the tabernacle of the congregation; and shall pour all the blood of the bullock at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which is at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.




 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#104
#104
krisbrian said:
This preaching occurred after Jesus's death

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
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You are reading into the text and are not using the Bible to explain the Bible
 
K

krisbrian

Guest
#105
#105
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
 
L

LawofLove

Guest
#107
#107
Please use the Bible to make a point, any comment (with in reason) that dos not use the bible will be ironed. Thank you :)
 
K

krisbrian

Guest
#108
#108
Well, I think its been clearly proven through the bible that life continues even after death, so I'll just leave it at that. Thats why most people dont fall for the false teaching of soul sleep.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#109
#109
krisbrian said:
Well, I think its been clearly proven through the bible that life continues even after death, so I'll just leave it at that. Thats why most people dont fall for the false teaching of soul sleep.
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You are right it is clearly proven, the dead do not know anything
Psalms 146:4
(4) His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
(5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

 
K

krisbrian

Guest
#110
#110
I can see how people come to the conclusion of soul sleep but there are just too many verses that say otherwise. I think a lot of these verses used to support soul sleep are speaking from the view of a man or describing the state of the flesh after death.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#111
#111
krisbrian said:
I can see how people come to the conclusion of soul sleep but there are just too many verses that say otherwise. I think a lot of these verses used to support soul sleep are speaking from the view of a man or describing the state of the flesh after death.
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Use the Bible not I think. We need certainty
Acts 21:34
(34) And some cried one thing, some another, among the multitude: and when he could not know the certainty for the tumult, he commanded him to be carried into the castle.
2 Peter 1:19
(19) We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

 
K

krisbrian

Guest
#112
#112
krisbrian said:
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
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Here is your certainty
 
Red33

Red33

Banned
#113
Jun 24, 2010
3,822
19
0
#113
shroom2 said:
No. Jesus was telling a parable, to make a point.
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You are saying that Jesus made up the parable to make a point based upon what? Was it based upon truth or upon nothing? If based upon nothing then the point would be irrelevant, but if based upon the truth then we should heed the parable and receive the truth from it. Your conclusion is empty and void of substance as is your doctrine of soul sleep.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#114
#114
krisbrian said:
Here is your certainty
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2 Corinthians 5:1-6
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
(2) For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
(3) If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
(4) For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
(5) Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
(6) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
1 Corinthians 15:51-55
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
(55) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#115
#115
Red33 said:
You are saying that Jesus made up the parable to make a point based upon what? Was it based upon truth or upon nothing? If based upon nothing then the point would be irrelevant, but if based upon the truth then we should heed the parable and receive the truth from it. Your conclusion is empty and void of substance as is your doctrine of soul sleep.
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The story in Luke 16 is a parable for the following reasons:-
The whole chapter needs to be read in context not just the parable by itself. Jesus first tells a parable in verses 1-13 and after hearing the parable this is how the Pharisees reacted
Luke 16:14
(14) And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

Jesus response becomes more direct to them and the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is part of that response. It must be noted what Jesus is discussing with the Pharisees, He was discussing that future destiny is determined by the use men make of the opportunities of this present life, that is the context in which this parable must be understood. Jesus is not discussing either the state of man in death or the time when rewards will be passed out.

If the story is real then Jesus would have contradicted Himself when He said that people are rewarded when He returns.
Matthew 16:27
(27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Matthew 25:31-33
(31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
(32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
(33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Matthew 25:34
(34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Matthew 25:41
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 22:12
(12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
 
Red33

Red33

Banned
#116
Jun 24, 2010
3,822
19
0
#116
krisbrian said:
Here is your certainty
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That is good certainty, because there are some that do not attach any redemptive value to the soul makeup of a man and never allow for God to redeem the soul prior to the body being redeemed at the first resurrection (1Cor 15:50-55). When we were redeemed and saved by the blood of Christ, we live with a redeemed soul and a quickened spirit that is God-conscious, but the body, that still has the old sin nature residing (Rom 7:23,24), must wait for its day of redemption (Rom 8:23, Eph 4:30). Until then we are to make sure that we cooperate with the God of peace, so that our whole spirit, soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (1Thes 5:23).
 
Red33

Red33

Banned
#117
Jun 24, 2010
3,822
19
0
#117
Laodicea said:
The story in Luke 16 is a parable for the following reasons:-
The whole chapter needs to be read in context not just the parable by itself. Jesus first tells a parable in verses 1-13 and after hearing the parable this is how the Pharisees reacted
Luke 16:14
(14) And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

Jesus response becomes more direct to them and the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is part of that response. It must be noted what Jesus is discussing with the Pharisees, He was discussing that future destiny is determined by the use men make of the opportunities of this present life, that is the context in which this parable must be understood. Jesus is not discussing either the state of man in death or the time when rewards will be passed out.


If the story is real then Jesus would have contradicted Himself when He said that people are rewarded when He returns.
Matthew 16:27
(27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Matthew 25:31-33
(31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
(32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
(33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Matthew 25:34
(34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Matthew 25:41
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 22:12
(12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
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Does that mean that our Lord can not relate to truth or reveal truth in His explanation? God reveals truth not matter what the context. You can't say that Jesus just randomly made up the part about the state of Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man. That was truth and we learn the truth from it and there is no contradiction. If Jesus just made up this story absent from the truth then what else has He done this with concerning any of the parables? Do we excuse ourselves from certain doctrine and understanding just because we may find it revealed here a little and there a little? The only contradiction is in your mind because you have not understood the truth that Jesus was teaching.
 
I

IMINJC

Guest
#118
#118
REDD33


Hey REDD!.. Jesus put this soul sleep heresy to rest when he quoted Abraham in the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man. Why don't you ask Ladiocea to answer this question:

Do you believe that Abraham actually said the Words that Jesus said that he said to the Rich Man? And if you counted all of the words that Abraham spoke in the Bible would you include the words that Jesus cliamed Abraham spoke to the Rich Man?

Normally when you ask a soul sleep beliver this question, and I have many times on many occasions, they will refuse to answer it. I give SHROOM2 credit for being one of the few that answered at all.

The fact is this debate is over, simply because Jesus Himself quoted a known dead person, and not just any dead person, the father of a nation. Now, either Abraham said what Jesus claimed that he said or Jesus is a liar. In which case He could have never gone to the cross in our place.

Jesus would never make a blunder as stupid as this. Quoting a historical figure in a parable, even Govenor Rick Perry is not that stupid to put himself in such a position where people could call him a liar. Jesus would be convicted of lieing in any court of law in the world by a first year intern if the doctrine of soul sleep is true.
 
Red33

Red33

Banned
#119
Jun 24, 2010
3,822
19
0
#119
IMINJC said:
REDD33


Hey REDD!.. Jesus put this soul sleep heresy to rest when he quoted Abraham in the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man. Why don't you ask Ladiocea to answer this question:

Do you believe that Abraham actually said the Words that Jesus said that he said to the Rich Man? And if you counted all of the words that Abraham spoke in the Bible would you include the words that Jesus cliamed Abraham spoke to the Rich Man?

Normally when you ask a soul sleep beliver this question, and I have many times on many occasions, they will refuse to answer it. I give SHROOM2 credit for being one of the few that answered at all.

The fact is this debate is over, simply because Jesus Himself quoted a known dead person, and not just any dead person, the father of a nation. Now, either Abraham said what Jesus claimed that he said or Jesus is a liar. In which case He could have never gone to the cross in our place.

Jesus would never make a blunder as stupid as this. Quoting a historical figure in a parable, even Govenor Rick Perry is not that stupid to put himself in such a position where people could call him a liar. Jesus would be convicted of lieing in any court of law in the world by a first year intern if the doctrine of soul sleep is true.
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Good points and good wisdom!
 
K

krisbrian

Guest
#120
#120
When you mention an actual name of a person and the story is not true, then it becomes a myth, or better yet, a lie. Soul sleep basically calls Jesus a liar on many accounts.

Apparently, Jesus was lying concerning the following...

Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Mar 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
 
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