-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I
SHROOM2
LMBO!...You are funny!
On one hand you seem so serious and knowledgeable about what you think is true, but really your just an immature novice who is afraid to admit that your theology is as fake as the way you address serious questions that are presented to you.
Answer the question I asked you, and that will show you the Bible proof that I have that the story of Lazarus was not a parable.
LMBO!...You are funny!
On one hand you seem so serious and knowledgeable about what you think is true, but really your just an immature novice who is afraid to admit that your theology is as fake as the way you address serious questions that are presented to you.
Answer the question I asked you, and that will show you the Bible proof that I have that the story of Lazarus was not a parable.
I
SHROOM2
DiD Abraham actually say the words that jesus said that he said to the
the Rich Man? And If you include all words spoken by Abraham in scripture, do you include the words that Jesus said that he spoke in the story of Lazarus?......You have refused to answer this question twice now..
If you make it a third, then you will only prove my opinion of you in my earlier post.
DiD Abraham actually say the words that jesus said that he said to the
the Rich Man? And If you include all words spoken by Abraham in scripture, do you include the words that Jesus said that he spoke in the story of Lazarus?......You have refused to answer this question twice now..
If you make it a third, then you will only prove my opinion of you in my earlier post.
I
]Ladiocia
You Said:
If this is the post you are referring to them I am sorry but, it does not prove anything.
You are using your own words and reasoning to explain the Bible. You have made a claim that it is not a parable so you need to show from the Bible what you claim
Ok..Then why don't you answer the question that I presented to SHROOM2? How this question is answered will offer my proof if you think this story was a parable or not. Doesn't matter what you think of my commentary on the subject...its a simple question..answer it.
You Said:
If this is the post you are referring to them I am sorry but, it does not prove anything.
You are using your own words and reasoning to explain the Bible. You have made a claim that it is not a parable so you need to show from the Bible what you claim
Ok..Then why don't you answer the question that I presented to SHROOM2? How this question is answered will offer my proof if you think this story was a parable or not. Doesn't matter what you think of my commentary on the subject...its a simple question..answer it.
I
SHROOM[2
I already answered that. No, Abraham did not really say that. It was a parable.
OK...my opinion of you was false..You are a gentleman and a scholar.
Well I have a delima here then. Shroom2 says Jesus was mistaken..Abraham could not have actually made the statements that Jesus said that he made. Jesus said Abraham made the statements to the Rich Man....Hmmmmm...what am I to do?...believe SHROOM2 and call Jesus a Liar?..Naw..with all due respect SHROOM buddy, I think I'm gonna go out on a limb here and believe that Jesus would know what Abraham said beyond the grave..I think his Character and credibility is just a tad bit better than yours.
When Jesus was telling this story according to your theology, someone could have spoken up and said.."Abraham never made such statements! "You sir are a liar"..and according to your doctrine they would have been right.
I already answered that. No, Abraham did not really say that. It was a parable.
OK...my opinion of you was false..You are a gentleman and a scholar.
Well I have a delima here then. Shroom2 says Jesus was mistaken..Abraham could not have actually made the statements that Jesus said that he made. Jesus said Abraham made the statements to the Rich Man....Hmmmmm...what am I to do?...believe SHROOM2 and call Jesus a Liar?..Naw..with all due respect SHROOM buddy, I think I'm gonna go out on a limb here and believe that Jesus would know what Abraham said beyond the grave..I think his Character and credibility is just a tad bit better than yours.
When Jesus was telling this story according to your theology, someone could have spoken up and said.."Abraham never made such statements! "You sir are a liar"..and according to your doctrine they would have been right.
In an ancient Greek manuscript, words are included which have been deleted in other translations. It begins Luke 16:19 with the words: eipen de kai heteran parabolen, which translated means, "And he said also another parable." If we believe Luke 116:19-31 then we are saying that Jesus denied Ecclesiastes 9: 4-6, 10:
For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
In Christ. . . . .
Note: Concerning the Greek Manuscript listed above (CODEX CANTABRIGIENSIS), one of the five most important Greek New Testament manuscripts, and the most interesting of all on account of its peculiar readings; scholars designate it by the letter D (see BIBLICAL CRITICISM, sub-title Textual). It receives its name from Theodore Beza, the friend and successor of Calvin, and from the University of Cambridge, which obtained it as a gift from Beza in 1581 and still possesses it. The text is bilingual, Greek and Latin. The manuscript, written in uncial characters, forms a quarto volume, of excellent vellum, 10 x 8 inches, with one column to a page, the Greek being on the left page (considered the place of honour), the parallel Latin facing it on the right page. It has been reproduced in an excellent photographic facsimile, published (1899) by the University of Cambridge.
For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
In Christ. . . . .
Note: Concerning the Greek Manuscript listed above (CODEX CANTABRIGIENSIS), one of the five most important Greek New Testament manuscripts, and the most interesting of all on account of its peculiar readings; scholars designate it by the letter D (see BIBLICAL CRITICISM, sub-title Textual). It receives its name from Theodore Beza, the friend and successor of Calvin, and from the University of Cambridge, which obtained it as a gift from Beza in 1581 and still possesses it. The text is bilingual, Greek and Latin. The manuscript, written in uncial characters, forms a quarto volume, of excellent vellum, 10 x 8 inches, with one column to a page, the Greek being on the left page (considered the place of honour), the parallel Latin facing it on the right page. It has been reproduced in an excellent photographic facsimile, published (1899) by the University of Cambridge.
K
Jesus said that whosoever believeth on him shall not perish. Soul sleep says that when we die, we do perish, and that would make Jesus a liar.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Also, Jesus makes it clear that the body and soul are two separate things, and that the soul is capable of living apart from the body.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Also, Jesus makes it clear that the body and soul are two separate things, and that the soul is capable of living apart from the body.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
I
ISHROOM2
YOU SAID: "A parable is a story, not a "lie".
I agree with you 100%....
YOU SAID: "Obviously Jesus never lied"
I'm sorry SHROOM but according to your theology that's exactly what Jesus did. I'm not being unfair here or unscriptural.
Here is what Jesus said:
25But ABRAHAM SAID, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
This is what you said: "No, Abraham did not really say that."
YOU SAID: "A parable is a story, not a "lie".
I agree with you 100%....
YOU SAID: "Obviously Jesus never lied"
I'm sorry SHROOM but according to your theology that's exactly what Jesus did. I'm not being unfair here or unscriptural.
Here is what Jesus said:
25But ABRAHAM SAID, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
This is what you said: "No, Abraham did not really say that."
L
The story in Luke 16 is a parable for the following reasons:-
1. The whole chapter needs to be read in context not just the parable by itself. Jesus first tells a parable in verses 1-13 and after hearing the parable this is how the Pharisees reacted
Luke 16:14
(14) And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Jesus response becomes more direct to them and the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is part of that response. It must be noted what Jesus is discussing with the Pharisees, He was discussing that future destiny is determined by the use men make of the opportunities of this present life, that is the context in which this parable must be understood. Jesus is not discussing either the state of man in death or the time when rewards will be passed out.
If the story is real then Jesus would have contradicted Himself when He said that people are rewarded when He returns.
Matthew 16:27
(27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Matthew 25:31-33
(31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
(32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
(33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Matthew 25:34
(34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Matthew 25:41
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 22:12
(12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
1. The whole chapter needs to be read in context not just the parable by itself. Jesus first tells a parable in verses 1-13 and after hearing the parable this is how the Pharisees reacted
Luke 16:14
(14) And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Jesus response becomes more direct to them and the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is part of that response. It must be noted what Jesus is discussing with the Pharisees, He was discussing that future destiny is determined by the use men make of the opportunities of this present life, that is the context in which this parable must be understood. Jesus is not discussing either the state of man in death or the time when rewards will be passed out.
If the story is real then Jesus would have contradicted Himself when He said that people are rewarded when He returns.
Matthew 16:27
(27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Matthew 25:31-33
(31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
(32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
(33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Matthew 25:34
(34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Matthew 25:41
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 22:12
(12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
K
Who are these spirits in prison that were around at the time of Noah? How is it possible for spirits to be in prison and hear preaching if our souls sleep after death?
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
L
Prison house of sin
2 Peter 2:19
(19) While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
Romans 7:14
(14) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Jesus freed people
John 8:32-36
(32) And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
(33) They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
(34) Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
(35) And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
(36) If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Noah preached before the flood to those in the prison house of sin
2 Peter 2:5
(5) And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
Hebrews 11:7
(7) By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Genesis 6:3
(3) And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
'Spirits in prison' are not disembodied spirits
Hebrews 12:9
(9) Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Hebrews 12:23
(23) To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Numbers 16:22
(22) And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?
Numbers 27:16
(16) Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,
These texts are a reference to people alive on this earth
[FONT="][/FONT]
2 Peter 2:19
(19) While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
Romans 7:14
(14) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Jesus freed people
John 8:32-36
(32) And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
(33) They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
(34) Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
(35) And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
(36) If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Noah preached before the flood to those in the prison house of sin
2 Peter 2:5
(5) And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
Hebrews 11:7
(7) By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Genesis 6:3
(3) And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
'Spirits in prison' are not disembodied spirits
Hebrews 12:9
(9) Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Hebrews 12:23
(23) To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Numbers 16:22
(22) And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?
Numbers 27:16
(16) Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,
These texts are a reference to people alive on this earth
[FONT="][/FONT]