Are we in the end times ?

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justbyfaith

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Sep 16, 2021
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I'm Amillennial and a partial preterist. You did not in any way refute my post. I don't really care how Jerome translated a word into Latin. No rapture! Not only is it not mentioned enough to form a doctrine, but it does not appear at all, except through a third language 400 years after Christ. You didn't deal with the fact that apantesin does not mean "meet" but "meet and return." Compare it to Acts 28:15, where the people went out to "meet" Paul and return with him to Rome. Plus, it simply does not say heaven anywhere in that verse. We meet him in the air around us, and return with him, regardless if your extra biblical info about about the air is the first firmament or heaven. If I jump up in the air, I am certainly not in heaven. If someone jumps out of an airplane and parachute down 10,000 feet, they are not in heaven either. How ridiculous!

You have these ideas, but you have not properly exegeted them Bible, instead, you have read into the Bible what you want it to say, eisegesis, and fail to let the proper Greek meaning come out, exegesis, which is the proper way to read the Bible.

I never mentioned earlier that in this verse, 1 Thess 4:17, there is also no mention of a "secret" rapture. So even if we allowed for a rapture, (which I do not!) there is no mention of it being secret, anywhere. The translational issues in this verse are overwhelming in denying the entire dispensationalist end times scenario!

As far as this great tribulation, it already happened. It happened in 70 AD, when Titus laid seige to Jerusalem, and burned the temple with its genealogical records, to the ground. Those genealogies, nor the whole temple sacrifice were not needed anymore. Jesus ancestors, were the last genealogies needed! Jesus was speaking to the people of his time, about a soon coming event. Not to us 2000 years later. To be sure, some things were not fulfilled in the 1st century AD. Jesus Second Coming has not yet occurred! But he only comes back once! Not a rapture, nor anything else, but landing on the Mount of Olives and every eye shall see!

You have totally failed to argue against my Greek exegesis. You can believe what you want, of course. But that doesn't make it Scriptural! And personally, I don't care if every other Christian in the world was a dispensationalist. I will follow the truth written in the Bible, and not the imaginings of men like Darby & Scofield. Reformed and many Baptists don't generally believe in the rapture. My Baptist church the entire preaching team are Amillennial, I found out when we did a series in Revelation. Lutherans are not Dispies, nor the Roman Catholic nor Orthodox churches. Probably not Anglican (Episcopal), either. The mainline traditional churches laid out their doctrines centuries before this dispie nonsense was invented.
What does it mean that we will be "caught up to meet the Lord in the air" and that "so shall we ever be with the Lord"?
 

justbyfaith

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I never mentioned earlier that in this verse, 1 Thess 4:17, there is also no mention of a "secret" rapture. So even if we allowed for a rapture, (which I do not!) there is no mention of it being secret, anywhere.
Of course it won't be secret.

There will be a trumpet of God and the shout with the voice of the archangel.
 

justbyfaith

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He is one of those if you believe his truth you are aligned with Gods truth, If not. You are a heretic and non believer.

I see he has not changed since he has gotten here. Its sad.
It is my prayer that every time I post, every word that comes off of my keyboard might be from the Holy Ghost.

The fact that you hate me enough to comment negative things about me after you have placed me on Ignore indicates that you are of the world according to John 15:18-25.
 

justbyfaith

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Anyone who gets a lot of "thumbs down" or "X" as a tack-on to their posts has my approval.

Jesus said it clearly in Matthew 5:10-12, Luke 6:22-23, and 2 Timothy 3:10-12, that these are also the ones who have the approval of God.
 
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Antichrist will not be slain until the day Christ comes to slay him. When he sits in the temple proclaiming himself to be God that is the end of his career.

His career of opposing everything god so called or everything worshipped as god ... clearly his career will be to stamp out all religion ... YOU if you are alive when he comes.

It is these things that come on a sudden and the church is quite unprepared for it. It will come suddenly like a came suddenly for the Jews in Germany, suddenly it was bad to be Jewish.
Psalms 82 leaves hints about who man is before coming down in this world to think your mortals, all stories were visions about what man experiences being blinded about who and where God is and is name being I AM is a mystery flesh and blood can't see, the Allegories repeat every good and evil you think and effect the minds looking and waiting for what's in you, the greatest born of woman story was John Baptist and least like Saul until becoming Paul that happens inside us not by man or studying OT visions like secular history. Ecc 3: Hints everything is repeated.
 
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What have you believed to be saved ?
To answer in the simplest form: Jesus Christ - The Son of the Living God. However, the subject is far more complex. How does one KNOW that they are in Christ? What Jesus Christ do they believe in?

Most people, in this world know of the "historical" Christ. Through stories or movies about His life. Even the Muslims recognize the historical Christ but their knowledge of Him is flawed. Many religionist today, teach a simplified Christ. Just walk the aisle and confess his name and be baptized. Often this is not genuine faith in the Savior but a temporary exercise of the flesh.

To know Christ is to know the Jesus Christ of the Bible. His Person and Work. His Divinity and Impeccable Humanity. He is the Word, the Great I Am, the Covenant Lord of Israel and the Lord of the New Covenant, which is in His Blood. To know one is in Christ, is to except everything said about Christ in all of Holy Scripture. If one rejects any part of Scripture about His Holy Character or His Work, then that one is none of His. (Rom. 8:9) Therefore, to have great assurance that one is in Christ, that one must study to learn all there is to know about Him.

For instance - a few questions:

1) Did Christ have his beginning from the virgin birth or from all eternity?
2) Is Christ the incarnate second Person of the Godhead?
3) Is Christ God?
4) Is Christ the Creator of all things?
5) Is Christ both fully God and fully man?
6) Is Christ's Nature's impeccable or peccable?
7) Did Christ die for everyone or the Sheep?

How one answers these questions will show whether they know the Christ of the Bible or some manmade perversion of Christ.

As Romans 8:9 indicated, one cannot know Jesus Christ if they have not the Spirit of Christ. When Adam fell and we all fell in him, mankind became spiritually "dead" or depraved. Everyone of us come into the world at enmity with God. We are sinners and love sin because our fallen nature loves sin. We cannot please God and have NO DESIRE to have God in our lives. Therefore, we cannot come to Christ in our fallen state because it would be against our nature.

John_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John_6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


This being the case, every believer must be "Born Again". (John 3:1-10). In this new birth, a person is given a "new heart" (Ezek. 11:19; 36:26; Mat. 9:17), he becomes a "new man" (2 Cor. 5:17) and is given a God given "faith" (Eph. 2:8). This enables the person to move towards God and believe on Jesus Christ. (Thus, "given unto him of my Father", in John 6:44&65). This is the Sovereign Work of the Holy Spirit, who comes at the appointed time and dwells in the believer. Thus, having our nature changed, our will is changed towards the things of God and not away from them. Without these things, it is impossible to please God. (Rom. 8:8) Impossible to know God (Rom. 1:20-23; 1 Cor. 2:12, 14). Will not seek God. (Rom. 3:10-18)

Therefore, God - the Father - enables every single person, through the Holy Spirit, to come to the Biblical Christ and none other.

Having been "Regenerated", (New Birth), the believer begins his/her "Conversion" experience. With the aid of the Holy Spirit, who guides our thoughts and aids our prayers, we grow in Grace and knowledge of our Lord and day by day put on Christ and put off the "old man". We do battle with the flesh, which means we hate sin - especially our own sins. We fight for the Truth of the Gospel and all of God's revelation and will not tolerate any attempt to diminish the Person and Work of our dear Lord, Jesus Christ.

To many, today, want the benefits of Christ's Work in Salvation, or the power of the Spirit but they care not for the True Person of Jesus Christ. The Holy and Perfect, Impeccable God-Man. The Lamb of God, without Spot or Blemish.
 
Jul 18, 2017
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So, why did jesus say we should know the day in post #10, and also say in Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. What are the possible answers?
Two different events: (1) the Second Coming and (2) the Resurrection/Rapture.
 
Jul 13, 2021
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OR--could it be one and the same being a day that changes every year--saying that day changes every year and not set by a calendar date.
 
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Thinking of Pentecost because it is the only feast not set by a calendar date and changes yearly depending on the Passover. Might say the church started on Pentecost, why not end on Pentecost
 
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Thats awesome about your hand and no Cancer! Praise God.

Reveleation is to NT what Daniel was to the OT. I do not believe in prophecy written as symbols to represent truths. I believe John wrote down what he saw, And those things will literally happen. Just like the 4 beasts of daniel literal appeared and walked on this earth and ruled over jerusalem as prophesied.

I can see what you say about the word meet also. But it still does nto make sense to me. When jesus returns and those with him. They are already in their bodies and already will be given commands. Something just tells me they will have to be prepaired for this mission. God is not just going to set them in place.. It is just far too many questions for me to consider a post trib rapture or “catching up”

But that is me.. Have a great thanksgiving sis (do you celebrate thanksgiving? I can not remember where you dwell. I have memory issues creeping up :(
We will have to agree to disagree! And that is ok! I think the crux of our difference is that you do not believe that most of apocalyptic literary is symbolic, like I do. Just for your information, here is what I think, with regards to Biblical apocalypse.

"3. Characteristics of Apocalyptic Literature. There is much diversity among the apocalyptic writings. Nevertheless, there are certain general features which are characteristic of the lit. as a whole and which justify the distinguishing of “apocalyptic” as a literary type: the presence of a cosmic dualism, visions and revelations; a contrast between the present evil age and the coming eschatological age; pessimism concerning the present age and optimism concerning the age to come; references and allusions to mythology, numerology, and animal symbolism; the idea of the unity of history and a goal toward which history is moving; the development of belief in life after death, and esp. the resurrection of the righteous and the judgment of the wicked (there is no resurrection for the unrighteous dead); and the appearance of a transcendent figure identified as “the Son of Man.”

Russell suggests four distinctly literary characteristics of apocalyptic: “It is esoteric in character, literary in form, symbolic in language, and pseudonymous in authorship” (op. cit., p. 106).

3. Characteristics of Apocalyptic Literature. There is much diversity among the apocalyptic writings. Nevertheless, there are certain general features which are characteristic of the lit. as a whole and which justify the distinguishing of “apocalyptic” as a literary type: the presence of a cosmic dualism, visions and revelations; a contrast between the present evil age and the coming eschatological age; pessimism concerning the present age and optimism concerning the age to come; references and allusions to mythology, numerology, and animal symbolism; the idea of the unity of history and a goal toward which history is moving; the development of belief in life after death, and esp. the resurrection of the righteous and the judgment of the wicked (there is no resurrection for the unrighteous dead); and the appearance of a transcendent figure identified as “the Son of Man.”

Russell suggests four distinctly literary characteristics of apocalyptic: “It is esoteric in character, literary in form, symbolic in language, and pseudonymous in authorship” (op. cit., p. 106).

a. Esoteric. The apocalyptic writings purport to be revelations (Gr. apokalypsis) of divine mysteries to certain illustrious individuals of Israel’s past, which were subsequently recorded in secret books for the instruction of God’s chosen remnant. The secrets are revealed to the seer in the form of a dream or vision, often in the context of a literal or spiritual tr. to heaven. The vision may consist of a review of the history of the world up to the time of the assumed author, or it may take the form of prediction and outline the future destiny of the world and the coming of God’s kingdom. Or it may describe the mysteries of the unseen world, i.e. heaven(s) and hades, the movements of the heavenly bodies, and the forces of nature. What is seen by the seer is written down, to be hidden away for many generations and faithfully preserved until the time of the end.

b. Literary. In spite of the visionary character of Ap. Lit., it is quite clear that the visions are, for the most part, literary creations by the author. That is to say, they are not the descriptions of actual ecstatic experiences, but rather are self-conscious theological statements. While the OT prophets were first men who spoke the Word of God which was given to them and only afterward wrote down their messages, the apocalyptists were primarily authors. Closely related to this feature is the elaborate symbolism through which the various authors convey their messages.

c. Symbolism. Apocalyptic Lit. is marked by imagery and style which are striking to say the least. Some of the images are taken from the OT (esp. from Dan). Some of it has its origin in ancient Near Eastern mythology, e.g. references to Leviathan, Behemoth and “the dragon” (also alluded to in the OT); the use of animals to symbolize men and nations; allusions to “heavenly tablets” and astral phenomena; etc. In fact, the whole lit. is marked by a carefully developed symbolism, which tends to suit its esoteric character. A study of this symbolism is important for an understanding of the Book of Revelation in the NT, as well as the Book of Daniel in the OT.

d. Pseudonymous. Apocalyptic Lit. is generally, though not always, pseudonymous. That is to say, the writers put their message into the mouth (or at least the pen) of some honored figure from ancient times (e.g. Enoch, Moses, Abraham, Isaiah, etc.). The reason for the adoption of pseudonymity is not entirely clear. The traditional explanation is that these writers had to attribute their writings to men of God prior to the time of Ezra (when, it was believed, prophecy had come to an end in Israel), in order to have them accepted as authentic revelations. Yet it is questionable whether anyone would have been deceived by this tactic. Another suggestion is that they adopted pseudonyms to avoid persecution by the authorities of the day (but why not simple anonymity?). Another explanation given by some is that pseudonymity was merely a literary custom with no attempt to deceive the reader. More recently, pseudonymity has been explained (by Russell) in terms of “corporate personality,” the peculiar time-consciousness of the ancient Hebrews, and the proper name in Heb. thought; the author identified himself and his message with the ancient seer in whose name he wrote, and wrote as his representative. Whatever the real reason for choosing the medium of pseudonymity, it seems probable that the name of the person in whose name the author wrote is related to the content of the book and, therefore, is not the result of an arbitrary choice.


I think there are many deep levels of symbolism in apocalyptic literature, including symbolism. But some things cannot be literal and defy what the whole genre of apocalyptic literature is. You can read more at:

https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/encyclopedia-of-the-bible/Apocalyptic-Literature
 
Jan 24, 2011
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I can see what you say about the word meet also. But it still does nto make sense to me. When jesus returns and those with him. They are already in their bodies and already will be given commands. Something just tells me they will have to be prepaired for this mission. God is not just going to set them in place.. It is just far too many questions for me to consider a post trib rapture or “catching up”

But that is me.. Have a great thanksgiving sis (do you celebrate thanksgiving? I can not remember where you dwell. I have memory issues creeping up :(
I'm Canadian. Our Thanksgiving was the second Monday in October. It is about celebrating the harvest is done, which applies to most of Canada. But, happy Thanksgiving to you!

The reason "meet and return" is confusing you, might be because you are not interpreting the end times properly? I agree it does not fit with your eschatology. LOL I acknowledge that I might be wrong, too! I don't worry too much about eschatology. My hope is in Jesus, and his Second Coming, which is what is promised in the New Testament. But, Paul specifically used that word, there has to be a reason! It fits with my eschatology, so I am not worried. I also heard a NT Scholar, Ben Witherington III speak on this topic last week. He exegeted the words of 1 These. 4:17 the same way I do. But, he added so many other verses. I wish you could have heard it. It was excellent. But then, things are always great when it agrees with what we believe!

I personally would rather focus on sanctification, or evangelism, or charitable acts (not to earn salvation, but as a witness, and compassion to towards those who have less than me). Or, many other topics, like the Holy Spirit, the Cross, The Resurrection, etc. My theology prof and I did not even touch eschatology, because there are so many views and interpretations, esp. the 4 main ones.
 
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I'm Canadian. Our Thanksgiving was the second Monday in October. It is about celebrating the harvest is done, which applies to most of Canada. But, happy Thanksgiving to you!

The reason "meet and return" is confusing you, might be because you are not interpreting the end times properly? I agree it does not fit with your eschatology. LOL I acknowledge that I might be wrong, too! I don't worry too much about eschatology. My hope is in Jesus, and his Second Coming, which is what is promised in the New Testament. But, Paul specifically used that word, there has to be a reason! It fits with my eschatology, so I am not worried. I also heard a NT Scholar, Ben Witherington III speak on this topic last week. He exegeted the words of 1 These. 4:17 the same way I do. But, he added so many other verses. I wish you could have heard it. It was excellent. But then, things are always great when it agrees with what we believe!

I personally would rather focus on sanctification, or evangelism, or charitable acts (not to earn salvation, but as a witness, and compassion to towards those who have less than me). Or, many other topics, like the Holy Spirit, the Cross, The Resurrection, etc. My theology prof and I did not even touch eschatology, because there are so many views and interpretations, esp. the 4 main ones.
we can agree to disagree.

The difference with us is how we interpret prophecy

I take it to mean literal events. Not symbolic..

But hey. We will know one day and laugh at this when we are in heaven!!
 
Jan 24, 2011
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What does it mean that we will be "caught up to meet the Lord in the air" and that "so shall we ever be with the Lord"?
Of course we will be ever with the Lord! When Jesus returns at his Second Coming, every eye will see and every tongue will confess. We will be with him. But, after we meet him in the air, he will return to earth with us.

As for "caught up" as a translation for ἁρπαγησόμεθα (future indicative passive) from ἁρπάζω (arpazo). Bauer puts it under "to grab or seize suddenly, so as to remove or gain control". Further, he puts it under "In such a way that no resistance is offered."

In other words, Jesus Christ will return on the clouds, and he will grab or snatch us, and we will not resist. If Jesus grabs me at his Second Coming, I will be with him, and I will not resist. Why would I even want to resist? As for "caught up," technically if Jesus pulls us up into the air, then we will be caught up. But, after that, we will return with him to earth. I prefer "snatch/take away," meaning away from the earth, meet him and then return. But certainly, we will be caught up in the air. Just not taken to heaven.

I do not see anywhere in my exegesis, or following posts that I said this would not happen. I said there is no rapture in this verse. It actually describes the Second Coming of Christ. Don't forget what Paul said only one verse earlier.

" For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." 1 Thess 4:16.

This will be very public. I noted earlier that a "secret" rapture was not in this verse. Someone noted it was indeed NOT secret. But, from what I have read about the rapture, and heard preached in dispensational churches, (which I attended for 15 years!) is that this "rapture" in 1 Thess. 4:17 is secret. The Second Coming is going to be a marvellous occasion, and we will be taken up to him, and then after meeting in the air, we will return with him to earth, where he will judge the living and the dead. That is the meaning of this verse. Nothing about a rapture, but lots about being with Jesus, being taken away from the earth to meet him in the air, and then return to earth. IOW, the Second Coming.
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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I'm Amillennial and a partial preterist. You did not in any way refute my post. I don't really care how Jerome translated a word into Latin. No rapture! Not only is it not mentioned enough to form a doctrine, but it does not appear at all, except through a third language 400 years after Christ.

The rapture is mentioned in scripture.

"harpazo" is the Greek word for "rapture".

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up HARPAZO/RAPTURE together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When this verse was translated into Latin from Greek, the Greek word "harpazo" was replaced by the the Latin verb "rapio" meaning "to catch up" or "take away" (the Latin noun "raptus" "a carrying off"). The Latin word “rapiemur” is the word St. Jerome used for “caught up” when he translated 1 Thess 4:17 in the Latin Vulgate Bible. In Middle French "rapiemur" is "rapture" meaning "to carry away" which is the same meaning as Rapture in English. So while the English word RAPTURE is not in scripture the Greek word HARPAZO is in scripture and it is the origin of the word rapture. So, yes, a rapture is very biblical. A pre-trib rapture is not biblical because Paul places the rapture after the tribulation and second coming and after the resurrection of the dead. The rapture then will come after the great tribulation has ended known as "post-trib".

AD70 was also not the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation is tribulation from satan against Christians. AD70 was Rome punishing some Jews for rebelling against their authority.
 

justbyfaith

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Sep 16, 2021
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Of course we will be ever with the Lord! When Jesus returns at his Second Coming, every eye will see and every tongue will confess. We will be with him. But, after we meet him in the air, he will return to earth with us.

As for "caught up" as a translation for ἁρπαγησόμεθα (future indicative passive) from ἁρπάζω (arpazo). Bauer puts it under "to grab or seize suddenly, so as to remove or gain control". Further, he puts it under "In such a way that no resistance is offered."

In other words, Jesus Christ will return on the clouds, and he will grab or snatch us, and we will not resist. If Jesus grabs me at his Second Coming, I will be with him, and I will not resist. Why would I even want to resist? As for "caught up," technically if Jesus pulls us up into the air, then we will be caught up. But, after that, we will return with him to earth. I prefer "snatch/take away," meaning away from the earth, meet him and then return. But certainly, we will be caught up in the air. Just not taken to heaven.

I do not see anywhere in my exegesis, or following posts that I said this would not happen. I said there is no rapture in this verse. It actually describes the Second Coming of Christ. Don't forget what Paul said only one verse earlier.

" For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." 1 Thess 4:16.

This will be very public. I noted earlier that a "secret" rapture was not in this verse. Someone noted it was indeed NOT secret. But, from what I have read about the rapture, and heard preached in dispensational churches, (which I attended for 15 years!) is that this "rapture" in 1 Thess. 4:17 is secret. The Second Coming is going to be a marvellous occasion, and we will be taken up to him, and then after meeting in the air, we will return with him to earth, where he will judge the living and the dead. That is the meaning of this verse. Nothing about a rapture, but lots about being with Jesus, being taken away from the earth to meet him in the air, and then return to earth. IOW, the Second Coming.
So, you believe in a post-tribulation rapture (that the rapture occurs at the time of the 2nd coming).

Is it your opinion that God is a wife-beater?
 
Jul 18, 2017
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That's three different events which happen very quickly within a short time span.
The Resurrection/Rapture is ONE event and the two phases are separated by nanoseconds. And it precedes the Second Coming by at least seven years. That is how the Marriage of the Lamb can be completed prior to the Second Coming of Christ WITH His saints and angels.