Are We Really Predestined?

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J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
John 6:43-44 "Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." The key word in these passages is the word "draw". But, what is meant by "draw". Some define it as "wooing". The word used here is "elko" (sorry this is the closest I can get to the spelling as my phone won't let me write Greek). This word means "to compel". "Compel" is defined as "to oblige (someone to do something) || to call forth and secure (something) in others." So I believe that when the "Father 'draws'" someone it is more than just a "wooing". When we "woo" someone we are trying to entice them or win them too us. Two other passages of Scripture where this word "elko" is used are James 2:6 and Acts 16:19. In Acts "..., they seized Paul and Silas and dragged (elko) them into the marketplace to the authorities". This was a forcible "dragging" not a "wooing". In explaining this R.C.Sproul used the example of drawing water from a well. We don't "woo" the water into the bucket but we "draw" the water into the bucket. I believe this is the same as in John. God doesn't "woo" us to Himself He "draws" us to Himself. If the word "elko" is defined as "wooing" and some respond favorably to the wooing because of something found in them, then we root our salvation in human work. If this is the case then we actually have something to boast about. If God draws us to Himself then we can only boast in God as God did the work not us.
Did Sproul also tell you that this same Greek word is used in John 12:32 where Jesus said when He is lifted up He will draw ALL MEN unto Himself? What is it about ALL MEN that you or Sproul don't understand? If this "drawing" doesn't require a willful response from men, then why aren't ALL MEN saved?
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Did Sproul also tell you that this same Greek word is used in John 12:32 where Jesus said when He is lifted up He will draw ALL MEN unto Himself? What is it about ALL MEN that you or Sproul don't understand? If this "drawing" doesn't require a willful response from men, then why aren't ALL MEN saved?
Because in context 'all men' does not mean everyone in the world. What Jesus was saying that all kinds of men, from Scribes and Pharisees, and Sadducees, to elders, to business men, to tax collectors and prostitutes, would be drawn to Him.

There was in fact no way in which His cross could draw all men to Himself. Most never heard of it.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
Because in context 'all men' does not mean everyone in the world. What Jesus was saying that all kinds of men, from Scribes and Pharisees, and Sadducees, to elders, to business men, to tax collectors and prostitutes, would be drawn to Him.

There was in fact no way in which His cross could draw all men to Himself. Most never heard of it.
Abel had faith in Christ and he displayed the same by sacrificing the firstlings of his flock. Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8).
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Abel had faith in Christ and he displayed the same by sacrificing the firstlings of his flock. Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8).
No Abel did not have faith in Christ. He would not have known what the term meant. He had faith in the one God Whom He saw in oneness.

He also did not know what a guilt offering was. His gifts were just that, gifts to God.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
No Abel did not have faith in Christ. He would not have known what the term meant. He had faith in the one God Whom He saw in oneness.

He also did not know what a guilt offering was. His gifts were just that, gifts to God.
The Lord God foretold of a coming Redeemer in Genesis 3:15 when He spoke of the seed of the woman who would crush the serpent's (Satan's) head and He also apparently killed an animal by which He made coats of skin for both Adam and Eve. Cain and Abel's parents must have passed such knowledge along unto their children or they must have had the same revealed unto them by God Himself or else the Lord wouldn't have chided Cain in relation to his sacrifice. Abel's sacrifice resulted in him having righteousness imputed unto him because he offered it in faith of Christ. The Old Testament saints looked ahead to the cross whereas the New Testament saints look back to the cross.
 
E

elf3

Guest
Did Sproul also tell you that this same Greek word is used in John 12:32 where Jesus said when He is lifted up He will draw ALL MEN unto Himself? What is it about ALL MEN that you or Sproul don't understand? If this "drawing" doesn't require a willful response from men, then why aren't ALL MEN saved?
When Jesus says "all people's" (NKJV) "all men" (KJV) "all people" (ESV) "all men" (NIV) "everyone" (The Message) "all men" (Phillips) "all men" (RSV) he is not saying "ALL MEN" shall be drawn too Him. What He is saying is that people's from all nationalities, not just those from one nationality. It will be a diverse "drawing" among people. He is saying Gentile as well as Jew. He is not saying ALL members of the human race.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
Because in context 'all men' does not mean everyone in the world. What Jesus was saying that all kinds of men, from Scribes and Pharisees, and Sadducees, to elders, to business men, to tax collectors and prostitutes, would be drawn to Him.

There was in fact no way in which His cross could draw all men to Himself. Most never heard of it.
Btw, doesn't it prick your conscience in the least when you need to redefine such words as "all" and "whosoever" as "all kinds" and "the elect" in order to cling to your error and then seek to foist the same upon others? It should.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
When Jesus says "all people's" (NKJV) "all men" (KJV) "all people" (ESV) "all men" (NIV) "everyone" (The Message) "all men" (Phillips) "all men" (RSV) he is not saying "ALL MEN" shall be drawn too Him. What He is saying is that people's from all nationalities, not just those from one nationality. It will be a diverse "drawing" among people. He is saying Gentile as well as Jew. He is not saying ALL members of the human race.
And your proof of this is...?
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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The Lord God foretold of a coming Redeemer in Genesis 3:15 when He spoke of the seed of the woman who would crush the serpent's (Satan's) head
In fact He did NOT. He simply said that the seed of the woman (mankind), would bruise the snake's head, and the snake would bruise his heel. This happened continually from that day forward. There was no way in which Adam and Abel could possibly have known the later Messianic interpretation which would be put on the verse and indeed Paul applied it, not to Christ, but to all Christians (Rom 16.20). God was initially referring to the continual battle between men and snakes, and then, when the idea of Satan had developed, between men and Satan.

It was only once the concept of the Messiah arose that the verse was given a Messianic interpretation.


and He also apparently killed an animal by which He made coats of skin for both Adam and Eve.
There is no hint whatsoever in Genesis of any idea of atonement. Indeed you will note that there is no reference to the killing of an animal. 'God made for them clothing of skins'. The animal may have died naturally, or it may have sloughed its skin. It was only later when the concept of atonement through sacrifice grew that anyone would read back atonement into it.



Cain and Abel's parents must have passed such knowledge along unto their children or they must have had the same revealed unto them by God Himself or else the Lord wouldn't have chided Cain in relation to his sacrifice.
No such knowledge was known or passed on. They were not 21st century Americans. Cain was not rebuked for offering a meal offering. Meal offerings were always perfectly acceptable. He was rebuked because of his general behaviour. He had not 'done well'. Sin lay at his door.


Abel's sacrifice resulted in him having righteousness imputed unto him because he offered it in faith of Christ.
Christ is not mentioned in the Old Testament before Daniel. So how could Abel offer it in the Name Christ.? He offered his gifts to God. Nowhere does it say that righteousness was imputed to Abel 'because of his sacrifice'. It says that it imputed to him because of his faith revealed through his gifts.. You read far too much of your own opinions into what you read instead of taking it literally.



The Old Testament saints looked ahead to the cross whereas the New Testament saints look back to the cross.
Nonsense. The Old Testament saints knew nothing about the cross, nor about a suffering Servant before isaiah. It is WE who talk about them looking forward to the cross.

It is dishonest to impute to Old Testament saints ideas which they did not have.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
Well my proof would be that not ALL men are saved. If ALL men are saved then why do we need to even follow Christ if He saves ALL men anyway?
Aren't you using circular reasoning? You assert that "drawing all men" doesn't mean all human beings to support your definition of "draw" and then you seek to prove it by saying that all men aren't saved. There is ample evidence in scripture that God wants ALL to be saved and NONE to perish or that He truly is "drawing all men", but you've got to insert "all OF THE ELECT" and "none OF THE ELECT" to support your position. Again, how were the people to whom and of whom Stephen spoke in Acts chapter 7 always resisting the Holy Ghost? Wasn't the Holy Ghost seeking to draw them to Christ?
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Btw, doesn't it prick your conscience in the least when you need to redefine such words as "all" and "whosoever" as "all kinds" and "the elect" in order to cling to your error and then seek to foist the same upon others? It should.

I suggest you go through all reference to ALL in both Old and New Testaments, and you will soon discover that it cannot literally mean ALL MEN except in a few cases.

For example, 'all the world came to hear the wisdom of Solomon'. Do you believe that literally?

As for "whosoever", "all kinds" and "the elect" i take them literally to mean whosoever (the offer is open to all men), all kinds' and those whom God has chosen. Do you? Or do you twist elect to mean something else?

Doesn't your conscience prick you when you ignore the testimony of Scripture? No I don't suppose it does. You simply ignore what doesn't suit you.
 
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J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
In fact He did NOT. He simply said that the seed of the woman (mankind), would bruise the snake's head, and the snake would bruise his heel. This happened continually from that day forward. There was no way in which Adam and Abel could possibly have known the later Messianic interpretation which would be put on the verse and indeed Paul applied it, not to Christ, but to all Christians (Rom 16.20). God was initially referring to the continual battle between men and snakes, and then, when the idea of Satan had developed, between men and Satan.

It was only once the concept of the Messiah arose that the verse was given a Messianic interpretation.




There is no hint whatsoever in Genesis of any idea of atonement. Indeed you will note that there is no reference to the killing of an animal. 'God made for them clothing of skins'. The animal may have died naturally, or it may have sloughed its skin. It was only later when the concept of atonement through sacrifice grew that anyone would read back atonement into it.





No such knowledge was known or passed on. They were not 21st century Americans. Cain was not rebuked for offering a meal offering. Meal offerings were always perfectly acceptable. He was rebuked because of his general behaviour. He had not 'done well'. Sin lay at his door.




Christ is not mentioned in the Old Testament before Daniel. So how could Abel offer it in the Name Christ.? He offered his gifts to God. Nowhere does it say that righteousness was imputed to Abel 'because of his sacrifice'. It says that it imputed to him because of his faith revealed through his gifts.. You read far too much of your own opinions into what you read instead of taking it literally.





Nonsense. The Old Testament saints knew nothing about the cross, nor about a suffering Servant before isaiah. It is WE who talk about them looking forward to the cross.

It is dishonest to impute to Old Testament saints ideas which they did not have.
You're very confused about a great many things. For example, when Paul told the Galatians that God preached before THE GOSPEL unto Abraham, what do you suppose that was all about?
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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You're very confused about a great many things. For example, when Paul told the Galatians that God preached before THE GOSPEL unto Abraham, what do you suppose that was all about?
That God taught him that he was reckoned as righteous because of his faith (Gen 15.6).

It is clear that is is you who are confused
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
That God taught him that he was reckoned as righteous because of his faith (Gen 15.6).

It is clear that is is you who are confused
No, the confusion is still on your part...unless you're just a wolf. According to Jesus, Abraham rejoiced to see His day and he saw it and was glad. For crying out loud, Abraham ate with Jesus.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Again, how were the people to whom and of whom Stephen spoke in Acts chapter 7 always resisting the Holy Ghost? Wasn't the Holy Ghost seeking to draw them to Christ?
Are you saying Stephen was wrong? So Stephen also agreed that those he was speaking of were NOT being drawn to Christ by the Holy Spirit. They always resisted Him. There was no response on their part, nor likely to be. They were those whom God had hardened. 'Whom He will He hardens'.(Rom 9.18)
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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No, the confusion is still on your part...unless you're just a wolf. According to Jesus, Abraham rejoiced to see His day and he saw it and was glad. For crying out loud, Abraham ate with Jesus.
Don't talk nonsense. Jesus would not be born for another 2000 years. Abraham talked with YHWH. He had no conception of Jesus.

So what did Jesus mean when He spoke of Abraham rejoicing to see His day? Either what he meant was that Abraham looked forward to the final triumph of God, the time when God would bring about the consummation (Heb 11.10-14). Or he was referring to Abraham seeing His day while Abraham was with God in Heaven.
 
J

JesusistheChrist

Guest
I have to charge my iPhone. I'll continue addressing your error this evening.
 
M

MadParrotWoman

Guest
I'm at work and on my phone, but what in Romans chapter 9 makes you believe in predestination?
This is the part of Romans 9 that I was referring to but also much of Romans 8. I am currently studying the book of Romans and it is does seem to me that predestination is the Biblical stance:
Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]


16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use.