Are we sinners?

[Grace777x70]

We are "working" on it ...

lol. I agree, It will not hurt us.

Maybe you just have not been here a lot. The issue is the gospel.. How one gets to heaven.

That is what the argument or discussion is about.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I think I can see what you're saying...it bothers me to see some people I meet think that being saved from death is the end prize. Then they seem to not be changed at all and in some cases, they seem to be...WORSE!

I have a teacher right now ( for a trade I am learning) who made it known she was a Christian and who prayed for us all the first time we left the classroom to practice working on live subjects. Then she proceeded to just...act as if she didn't know or consider God at all in the circumstances of the day. She is snippy and snotty and arrogant and impatient and money driven. You couldn't tell she was a believer unless she had said so because she acts like everyone else.

Being saved from eternal damnation is not the end prize. Being saved from myself daily is more the prize for me.

I think sometimes that people like my teacher have put a superficial tiny bandaid over a mortal, blood spurting wound. I think they are deceived.

Then, I think I am being judgemental and can see their faults but not my own. Then I remember that we know them by their fruit. No fruit there.

I'd bet she believes in some form of Once Saved Always Saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'd bet she believes in some form of Once Saved Always Saved.

If she has true faith in God. Then yes, She does.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I'd bet she believes in some form of Once Saved Always Saved.

She will make you stop guessing then.
To me, it is pointless to have an argument over it. If He is faithful to forgive us when we confess our sins, what does the debate matter? He IS eternal life. He has promised to never abandon me, He is merciful and fair beyond my capacity to even grasp. Why do I need anything more secure than that great of a mercy? I'm content with gathering enough for today and trusting Him again tomorrow because His mercies begin anew each morning. I don't even understand why I would want to have the debate? If I remain in Him, I have eternal life. Eternal life Himself lives in me and communes with me every day. What more do I need?

 

[Grace777x70]

You hold onto Him..He is faithful to you. Just like manna came down every day and it was enough for that day..so the grace of God will come to you today...and then tomorrow..etc.

I like to wake up and say.."Lord Jesus..what do I need to believe today?" He gives us the word we need for that day as we go about our business. It could come from any number of sources. The bible,..a scripture could come alive inside of you. A friend could say something to you. A movie could "speak" to you. Watching nature is another thing the Lord used to speak to people..

What I love about the Lord is that He is in eternity..He is timeless..He is in your future and He comes back with a word for you so that you can believe and hold onto as you wait for the manifestation of in in your life...this word from Him is to get you to where He wants you to be in your future,..it's pretty awesome!

She will make you stop guessing then.
To me, it is pointless to have an argument over it. If He is faithful to forgive us when we confess our sins, what does the debate matter? He IS eternal life. He has promised to never abandon me, He is merciful and fair beyond my capacity to even grasp. Why do I need anything more secure than that great of a mercy? I'm content with gathering enough for today and trusting Him again tomorrow because His mercies begin anew each morning. I don't even understand why I would want to have the debate? If I remain in Him, I have eternal life. Eternal life Himself lives in me and communes with me every day. What more do I need?

 

[kathryn]

Paul says I persecuteD the church not I am persecuting the church. Past event. And in many of his letters he explains that he is now living for Christ. You can see in the Scriptures Romans 7 is talking about Christ saving you. It doesn't say anything about being a sinner as a Christian as an example for us. That's ridiculous.

Yet these Scriptures have been used to show people that they can't fight against sin, which is in DIRECT contrast to everything Paul wrote, except in regard to BEING SAVED not LIVING SAVED...

Let's break out Romans 7:

14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.


Who's under the Law? Jews. Okay so Paul says here that we are under bondage to sin, but earlier he said...

Romans 6:18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

Is Paul having amnesia?? Or maybe he's not referring to himself, but as himself before Christ! Let's find out!

24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Okay so now Paul calls himself wretched and not a saint, interesting. Who will set me free? Interesting, but Paul you're saved you've already been set free! Did you forget when you said this?

2 Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

And what do you mean you're serving the law of God? I thought you served the Spirit? What's going on here Paul!

Did you just say your FLESH is serving sin? Did you forget when you said this?

Romans 6:12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Paul must really be struggling because he tells us to not let sin reign in our body, nor to let our body serve sin, or to let sin master us! And that we are not under the law, but grace!

25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Hmm, I wonder if the NEXT VERSE will shed any light on this?

1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Anytime Scripture says therefore you gotta wonder what he said before it...

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Uh oh Paul is taking crazy again here 2 verses later saying I'm free from sin and death!

3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

Oh there's the Law again, and what it couldn't do, because of the flesh (that evil thing that has no good in it) God DID. What a minute did Paul just say DID and not doing or will do?

4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Whoa! It looks like he's explaining Romans 7 right here! And yes I see that not walking according to the flesh... We'll get there in a few verses...

5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

And here comes the big climax of Paul's argument. He says hey you can't please God in the flesh. So get out of the flesh people! And they are thinking how PAUL how do I get out of the flesh? Paul tells them how...

9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

You are NOT in the flesh, but in the Spirit. Your hostile mind? Oh yeah He gave you a new one....

1 Co 2:16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

C.

Here it is.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Here it is.

Tortured, uncompelling explanation of Romans 7.

 

[MaranathaSoonQuick]

that was weird cc page was in my quick reply, active links and all... anyways, yep here it is another thread probably about either we all fall short of his glory or sinless perfectionism.

 

[kathryn]

that was weird cc page was in my quick reply, active links and all... anyways, yep here it is another thread probably about either we all fall short of his glory or sinless perfectionism.

I havent read a post of anyone on this website who has spoken of sinless perfection for the christian. Can you point me to a post where anyone claimed that, it would make me smile

 

[MaranathaSoonQuick]

yea you're new it's one of the hot topics in the bible study room, i came across some there one name that comes to mind is cobus. haven't seen him in a while but they're here too. check out jeff56 who was banned, http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/107742-can-christian-sinless-perfect.html

 

[kathryn]

yea you're new it's one of the hot topics in the bible study room, i came across some there one name that comes to mind is cobus. haven't seen him in a while but they're here too. check out jeff56 who was banned, http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/107742-can-christian-sinless-perfect.html

Thanks, that did make me smile

 

[PeterJens]

Looking at romans 7 Paul never resolves the conflict between the mind, ie perception and aspiration, and the body, or programmed desire and need which we all live with. We are animals, part of a survival mechanism, relating to children, survival, and simple interaction.

I would argue we can reprogram and channel our responses into appropriate areas. Just as people can be corrupted by sowing wrong behaviour we can program ourselves towards the spiritual. So the divide between flesh and Spirit is not as distinct, and Jesus's victory is over the flesh, which he walked in righteousness.

Paul never believed he had arrived but was still walking. Grace is Jesus walking with us as we are transformed, letting us go through failures and become overcomers. Look at Davids life, full of trials and problems, yet he was still blessed and regarded as walking with God.

The error has come into hyper-grace to be against the law to a degree that any rules or considerations are deemed wrong, and any conviction of the Spirit over sin is also wrong. That is the beginning of apostacy. Moses walked with God, we like him should walk, yet he gave the law.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Looking at romans 7 Paul never resolves the conflict between the mind, ie perception and aspiration, and the body, or programmed desire and need which we all live with. We are animals, part of a survival mechanism, relating to children, survival, and simple interaction.

I would argue we can reprogram and channel our responses into appropriate areas. Just as people can be corrupted by sowing wrong behaviour we can program ourselves towards the spiritual. So the divide between flesh and Spirit is not as distinct, and Jesus's victory is over the flesh, which he walked in righteousness.

Paul never believed he had arrived but was still walking. Grace is Jesus walking with us as we are transformed, letting us go through failures and become overcomers. Look at Davids life, full of trials and problems, yet he was still blessed and regarded as walking with God.

The error has come into hyper-grace to be against the law to a degree that any rules or considerations are deemed wrong, and any conviction of the Spirit over sin is also wrong. That is the beginning of apostacy. Moses walked with God, we like him should walk, yet he gave the law.

2 Timothy 4:7
"I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith"

 

[PeterJens]

2 Timothy 4:7
"I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith"

Amen. Paul is looking back at his life and saying he did all he could.

Interestingly he fought the good fight, he kept the faith. Now I have been told this is works of self, not walking with Jesus.

It is the difference between we are born of God to walk as a choice we make. I agree 100% we need to recognise who we are in Christ and walk in righteousness and the Spirit. But the idea we do not repent, or fail, pick ourselves up and walk on, but just ignore failure and claim righteousness is just denial.

As I have stated before denial is hypocracy and very unhealthy. The fact that this is not accepted as walking in the flesh, and not light, shows spiritual failure. Darkness exists because of denial of failure and keeping the image of righteousness, exactly what the failure of the pharisees is all about.

In conversations it is obvious people get so legalistic about the law and sin. To recognise a woman as beautiful is seen as sin rather than a normal reaction to beauty. Desire for intimacy, or the belief people exist on levels of class or physical beauty and some do not deserve respect or beautiful partners misses the reality of Jesus and love. Everyone is worthy of love no matter their beauty or skills. They need to understand their limitations, and be respected based on what they can offer, but this does not make them less, just skilled in different ways than others.

The tragic reality is very beautiful women can be trapped by peoples initial reaction to them which is not who they are, just how they look.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Amen. Paul is looking back at his life and saying he did all he could.

Interestingly he fought the good fight, he kept the faith. Now I have been told this is works of self, not walking with Jesus.

It is the difference between we are born of God to walk as a choice we make. I agree 100% we need to recognise who we are in Christ and walk in righteousness and the Spirit. But the idea we do not repent, or fail, pick ourselves up and walk on, but just ignore failure and claim righteousness is just denial.

As I have stated before denial is hypocracy and very unhealthy. The fact that this is not accepted as walking in the flesh, and not light, shows spiritual failure. Darkness exists because of denial of failure and keeping the image of righteousness, exactly what the failure of the pharisees is all about.

In conversations it is obvious people get so legalistic about the law and sin. To recognise a woman as beautiful is seen as sin rather than a normal reaction to beauty. Desire for intimacy, or the belief people exist on levels of class or physical beauty and some do not deserve respect or beautiful partners misses the reality of Jesus and love. Everyone is worthy of love no matter their beauty or skills. They need to understand their limitations, and be respected based on what they can offer, but this does not make them less, just skilled in different ways than others.

The tragic reality is very beautiful women can be trapped by peoples initial reaction to them which is not who they are, just how they look.

Then you see that Paul did believe he had arrived. Good.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Peter Jens, I am enjoying your posts. Thank you.

 

[NetChaplain]

The believer still sins but no longer with intention nor without repentance, which is different from intentional sin as before rebirth, but the scriptures do not describe a believer as as sinner, for there are no biblical passages that relate a sinner as being a child of God.

 

[Gr8grace]

The believer still sins but no longer with intention nor without repentance, which is different from intentional sin as before rebirth, but the scriptures do not describe a believer as as sinner, for there are no biblical passages that relate a sinner as being a child of God.

Not true. we ALL still sin willingly and habitually sin . It may not be overt sins, but your post puts GUILT on believers and guilt is a sin. Worry is a sin. Fear is a sin. WRONG motivation is a sin.

We all will willingly and habitually sin, we are sinners and we have the flesh.

Our flesh is not redeemed and gets no better. The new creation in Christ CANNOT sin and Is PERFECT and all believers are recognized as their new creation in CHRIST......not as the flesh,sinners or the old man.

Your post is a believer that is trying to clean up the flesh from their "good" side.

The new creation in Christ is PERFECT and needs no cleaning up. If we are "cleaning" up our lives or thinking we won't sin "habitually" we are living IN the flesh. The new creation needs no cleaning up, sinning less,perfecting,sinning without "will".


Live in the new creation.......we are perfect,filled with the Spirit and CANNOT sin. Whether we live in the flesh or in the new creation in CHRIST, ALL believers are identified as IN Christ not a sinner.

 

[NetChaplain]

Not true. we ALL still sin willingly and habitually sin .

Not to contend with your disagreement, I believe we in our old man sin willfully (which we eventually realize is not our desire after our new nature leading to repentance), but not in our new man, that part of the believer that never desires to sin. This is what Paul meant in Romans 7:17, 20 by, "It's no loner I (new man) who does it but the sin (sinner; old man; sin nature) that dwells in me.

Sinning willfully indicates an unregenerate life: "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins" (Heb 10:26).

I believe the "I," "who does not want to do it," is the new nature which "cannot sin" (1 John 3:9). This is the part of us that is "after the image of Him that created him (it, the new nature).

That's why there are no Scriptures referring to a believer as a sinner. Paul's declaration that he was "chief" is not only an isolated example but is actually in the past tense--"was" or "have been." (eimi)

Strong's Greek for I was or have been: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1510&t=KJV

 

[Euphemia]

I am shocked by the poll numbers. How people who have been washed in the blood of the Lamb can actually click on "yes" to designate themselves as sinners is beyond me. It shows a true lack of understanding of who one is in Christ. Both that and an underlying sense of false humility. Either way, God is not honoured in it, whatsoever.