Are Women Not Allowed to Preach in Every Case?

[Dino246]

This is an age-old principle. God gave man authority over all things that breathe. Adam’s leadership role (headship and covering) over Eve was God’s design for the family dynamic, because it’s a reflection of the Trinity.

The church is not the nuclear family... period.

Subordinate does not mean lesser than.

That is exactly what it means, within a hierarchical structure. It's simply the wrong word for the relationship between males and females in the church.

God gave Eve to Adam to help him fulfill his role,

Which does not automatically place her in a subordinate role. Further, "help" is a poor choice because in English it carries the implication of "inferior assistant" which ezer kenegdo definitely does not carry.

not to usurp his role.

Double fallacy: false dichotomy and circular reasoning. You're drawing "usurp" from a bad translation, and implying that any time a woman is in a leadership role, It's because she has "usurped" it from a man. That's c**p.

Women was made to compliment man, not replace him.

Fallacy: false dichotomy (again)... and the word is complement. Woman is fully the image of God, just as man is. Neither is independent of the other, as Paul explains in 1 Corinthians 11. Individual human beings have God-given strengths, and God gives to whom He chooses.

 

[Dan_473]

I provided the simple answer and a 289 pg document responding to all known objections/questions about this subject near the beginning of this thread in comment #13.

Preaching isn't the issue, Its "teaching and exercising authority over men". Women can preach to anyone they want. They can also teach children and other women. They just can't teach men. It's not complicated.

On the subject of Eldership....Since 1 Timothy 5:17 states that elders lead and teach the church and since women are not to teach or lead men, it follows, therefore, that women cannot be elders in the church

Are you thinking a woman should not exercise authority over a man in all situations, or just in church settings?


Can a woman exercise authority over a male child? I'm asking because I'm wondering what age you're considering a male to become a man? And is there also an age factor of when a female becomes a woman?

 

[garee]

Subordinate does not mean lesser than.

Greater position not authority . The work of two working the same will. One work of faith . Not one alone . The husband of one wife the other half of the ministry working as one. The chaste virgin bride of Christ the virtuous woman. During ceremonies she as a picture to the world must be silent in tier anxieties to share the gospel . As a woman she should wait till she gets home with her husband and husband be silent and wait to you get home. It is not a place of disorder. The elders have a planned agenda. Again as a picture of the gospel to the world .

Husbands love your wives. Men ruling in perfect agreement over, sharing in the one work not lording it over one another. .
The ministry of two by the work of one .the work of one flesh and bone creation. In the new heavens and earth we will be literally one new creation, as the chaste virgin bride. Today as one.

A gracious woman retaineth honour: and strong men retain riches. The merciful man doeth good to his own soul: but he that is cruel troubleth his own flesh.Proverbs 11:

Men drooooll (LOL)

 

[Diakonos]

Are you thinking a woman should not exercise authority over a man in all situations, or just in church settings?


Can a woman exercise authority over a male child? I'm asking because I'm wondering what age you're considering a male to become a man? And is there also an age factor of when a female becomes a woman?

Women. γυνήa: "an adult female person of marriageable age".
Men: ἀνήρa: "an adult male person of marriageable age."

The Bible speaks in general terms of marriage being for those who are “grown up” (Ruth 1:12–13). Both the language and culture of the Bible strongly support the idea that puberty at bare minimum, is a condition that must be met before becoming someone’s spouse. This fits with the historical purpose of marriage, which has always been about conceiving and rearing children. Scriptural evidence indicates that those too young for childbearing are not candidates for marriage, though there is no explicit age given in the Bible.
But for the purposes of this discussion I don't think the exact age is important because a women that is continually teaching and excising authority over men is usually never near the age that a girl becomes a women. Its usually when that women has has known the Lord for years and know the Word well enough to teach it.

Teach or exercise authority (in the present tense=ongoing........it should be translated "continually teach nor exercise authority"). There is a reason Paul couples these two together. Teaching (gr=didasko) is where we get the English word "didactic". "for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as their scribes" Matthew 7:29. There is a connection between teaching the Word and authority....because the Word HAS authority. Therefore, teaching the Bible is an exercise of authority.

That being said, to answer the rest of your question my answer is "in church affairs"...meaning in marriage and especially in the teaching ministry and oversight of the Church. Men (Shepherds/Elders) are called to be the leaders of their families and congregations by Godly living and Godly teaching, which Paul covers in the next few verses. He first addresses women not teaching men, then goes on to say that Elders (men) are to be "skilled in teaching" (didasko). Wow, there's that word again!
"(but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?)"
There's a rhyme and reason to the flow of the apostle's words. He is telling us what the proper structure of church government ought to be. "For God is a God of order and not of confusion"

 

[Diakonos]

The church is not the nuclear family... period.


That is exactly what it means, within a hierarchical structure. It's simply the wrong word for the relationship between males and females in the church.


Which does not automatically place her in a subordinate role. Further, "help" is a poor choice because in English it carries the implication of "inferior assistant" which ezer kenegdo definitely does not carry.


Double fallacy: false dichotomy and circular reasoning. You're drawing "usurp" from a bad translation, and implying that any time a woman is in a leadership role, It's because she has "usurped" it from a man. That's c**p.


Fallacy: false dichotomy (again)... and the word is complement. Woman is fully the image of God, just as man is. Neither is independent of the other, as Paul explains in 1 Corinthians 11. Individual human beings have God-given strengths, and God gives to whom He chooses.

Lets's establish some common ground before we proceed further. I would like to know your understanding of the doctrines that lay beneath this topic. If we disagree at a fundamental level, then we cannot continue and expect to find any fruit in it.

What is your understanding of the doctrine of Headship and Covering?

 

[Dino246]

Lets's establish some common ground before we proceed further. I would like to know your understanding of the doctrines that lay beneath this topic. If we disagree at a fundamental level, then we cannot continue and expect to find any fruit in it.

What is your understanding of the doctrine of Headship and Covering?

I'll answer your question exactly as written...

I understand that it is a complementarian interpretation of 1 Corinthians 11 that focuses on the (alleged) hierarchical relationship between all men and all women and generally ignores Paul's key statement, "However, in the Lord...."

 

[Diakonos]

I'm not seeing much Biblical input from you in these long lists of short dismissals. You're simply disagreeing with me and showing that it doesn't make sense to you.

You've said things like:
"I don't accept your interpretation"
"I don't agree with your chain of reasoning"
"I think you're using circular reasoning"

Lets's establish some common ground before we proceed further. I would like to know your understanding of the doctrines that are rooted beneath this topic. If we disagree at the fundamental level, then we cannot continue and expect to find any fruit in it.

What is your understanding of the doctrine of Headship and Covering?

 

[Diakonos]

I'll answer your question exactly as written...

I understand that it is a complementarian interpretation of 1 Corinthians 11 that focuses on the (alleged) hierarchical relationship between all men and all women and generally ignores Paul's key statement, "However, in the Lord...."

Somehow only part of my comment posted. Here is the full comment:

I'm not seeing much Biblical input from you in these long lists of short dismissals. You're simply disagreeing with me and showing that it doesn't make sense to you.

You've said things like:
"I don't accept your interpretation"
"I don't agree with your chain of reasoning"
"I think you're using circular reasoning"

Lets's establish some common ground before we proceed further. I would like to know your understanding of the doctrines that are rooted beneath this topic. If we disagree at the fundamental level, then we cannot continue and expect to find any fruit in it.

What is your understanding of the doctrine of Headship and Covering?

 

[Diakonos]

I'll answer your question exactly as written...

I understand that it is a complementarian interpretation of 1 Corinthians 11 that focuses on the (alleged) hierarchical relationship between all men and all women and generally ignores Paul's key statement, "However, in the Lord...."

13 "For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression"

.....Why did Paul give this as the reason he doesn't allow women to teach/exercise authority?

 

[Dino246]

13 "For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression"

.....Why did Paul give this as the reason he doesn't allow women to teach/exercise authority?

I don't believe he did.

Causation is one possible interpretation of verse 14, and it's the one that most readers assume. It is not, however, the only possible interpretation. Paul's audience was Timothy, who was ministering in Ephesus, the centre of Artemis worship and home to many other pagan cults, many of which employed females in teaching roles who weren't beyond "extra-curricular instruction" (hence authentein). The beliefs included the idea that Eve was formed before Adam, and did not commit any sin. Paul's statement directly contradicts these false beliefs. His restriction on teaching would have been appropriate for a female convert coming from such a background... until she was properly instructed in the truth and had her false beliefs corrected. It would have been equally appropriate for a male convert to be prevented from teaching until he had learned adequately. In that context, Paul's restriction makes sense as a temporary measure only, for a limited set of people only, and not as an all-time absolute preclusion of female teachers in the Church.

 

[Dino246]

Somehow only part of my comment posted. Here is the full comment:

I'm not seeing much Biblical input from you in these long lists of short dismissals. You're simply disagreeing with me and showing that it doesn't make sense to you.

You've said things like:
"I don't accept your interpretation"
"I don't agree with your chain of reasoning"
"I think you're using circular reasoning"

I don't find it productive to use more direct language, such as "Your interpretation is wrong", "Your chain of reasoning is broken", or "You're using circular reasoning".

If you'd prefer me to be more direct, I can do so. I have not fleshed out the reasons for my disagreement and the biblical support for them in each case, because I have done so at length on this site already.

 

[Dan_473]

Women. γυνήa: "an adult female person of marriageable age".
Men: ἀνήρa: "an adult male person of marriageable age."

The Bible speaks in general terms of marriage being for those who are “grown up” (Ruth 1:12–13). Both the language and culture of the Bible strongly support the idea that puberty at bare minimum, is a condition that must be met before becoming someone’s spouse. This fits with the historical purpose of marriage, which has always been about conceiving and rearing children. Scriptural evidence indicates that those too young for childbearing are not candidates for marriage, though there is no explicit age given in the Bible.
But for the purposes of this discussion I don't think the exact age is important because a women that is continually teaching and excising authority over men is usually never near the age that a girl becomes a women. Its usually when that women has has known the Lord for years and know the Word well enough to teach it.

Teach or exercise authority (in the present tense=ongoing........it should be translated "continually teach nor exercise authority"). There is a reason Paul couples these two together. Teaching (gr=didasko) is where we get the English word "didactic". "for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as their scribes" Matthew 7:29. There is a connection between teaching the Word and authority....because the Word HAS authority. Therefore, teaching the Bible is an exercise of authority.

That being said, to answer the rest of your question my answer is "in church affairs"...meaning in marriage and especially in the teaching ministry and oversight of the Church. Men (Shepherds/Elders) are called to be the leaders of their families and congregations by Godly living and Godly teaching, which Paul covers in the next few verses. He first addresses women not teaching men, then goes on to say that Elders (men) are to be "skilled in teaching" (didasko). Wow, there's that word again!
"(but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?)"
There's a rhyme and reason to the flow of the apostle's words. He is telling us what the proper structure of church government ought to be. "For God is a God of order and not of confusion"

Right, the idea of puberty or marriageable age. If this is to be implemented in the church today, what would be the actual age or marker, in your view?


I see how teaching and having authority would go together. But do you mean that a woman could teach or have authority, but not both? Or that either one necessarily implies the other?


I can't say that I agree with you at this time, but I do like trying to figure out if something like this is even possible to implement today.

 

[Diakonos]

I don't believe he did.

"For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression"



My question remains....... "Why did Paul give this as the reason he doesn't allow women to teach/exercise authority?

 

[Dino246]

"For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression"

View attachment 214144

My question remains....... "Why did Paul give this as the reason he doesn't allow women to teach/exercise authority?

My answer remains as it was. I don't think you've given it an ounce of consideration.

 

[Diakonos]

Do you really think that quoting Scripture at me is going to change anything?

No I don't believe that it will. I am willing to be teachable, but you're not giving me a a Biblical reason to change my mind.

When I say things like: "Why did Paul give this as the reason...?" (1 Tim 2:13-14...which is theological, not cultural)

And you say: "I don't believe he did" (which isn't a refutation).

And then I provided the lexical information to test your belief: (LSJ, Strong's, DBL, BDAG, CDWGTHB....showing your belief to be lacking).

And your response is: "My answer remains as it was. I don't think (your favorite rebuttal) you've given it an ounce of consideration".

First of all...Do you only believe lexicons when you agree with them?
Secondly....Really? Not even an ounce? Have you not read any of my posts in this thread? Surely I didn't come up with these on the spot without any consideration.

Quoting Scripture is helpful to the one who is willing to learn from them (Proverbs 15:31; 17:10; 19:25; 25:12; 27:5–6). By being teachable (10:8; 12:15; 14:6; 15:32; 21:11) one becomes wiser (1:5). As elsewhere in Proverbs a wise person is a righteous person. Godly character should underlie one’s mental sagacity.

@Dino246 You have shown yourself to be one who is set in your ways....unwilling to change your mind. By definition, you are unwilling to repent.

Rightly did the Apostle Peter speak of you: "in all Paul's letters, he speaks of things, which some are hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. -2 Peter 3:16


This will probably be my last post here, not because the battle is lost, but because the pearls I cast might be better invested elsewhere.

To the rest of you, It was been a wonderful time teaching and learning from one another through God's Word. Be blessed my Brothers and Sisters.

In Yeshua
-Diakonos

 

[Dino246]

No I don't believe that it will. I am willing to be teachable, but you're not giving me a a Biblical reason to change my mind.

When I say things like: "Why did Paul give this as the reason...?" (1 Tim 2:13-14...which is theological, not cultural)

And you say: "I don't believe he did" (which isn't a refutation).

And then I provided the lexical information to test your belief: (LSJ, Strong's, DBL, BDAG, CDWGTHB....showing your belief to be lacking).

And your response is: "My answer remains as it was. I don't think (your favorite rebuttal) you've given it an ounce of consideration".

First of all...Do you only believe lexicons when you agree with them?
Secondly....Really? Not even an ounce? Have you not read any of my posts in this thread? Surely I didn't come up with these on the spot without any consideration.

Quoting Scripture is helpful to the one who is willing to learn from them (Proverbs 15:31; 17:10; 19:25; 25:12; 27:5–6). By being teachable (10:8; 12:15; 14:6; 15:32; 21:11) one becomes wiser (1:5). As elsewhere in Proverbs a wise person is a righteous person. Godly character should underlie one’s mental sagacity.

@Dino246 You have shown yourself to be one who is set in your ways....unwilling to change your mind. By definition, you are unwilling to repent.

Rightly did the Apostle Peter speak of you: "in all Paul's letters, he speaks of things, which some are hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. -2 Peter 3:16


This will probably be my last post here, not because the battle is lost, but because the pearls I cast might be better invested elsewhere.

To the rest of you, It was been a wonderful time teaching and learning from one another through God's Word. Be blessed my Brothers and Sisters.

In Yeshua
-Diakonos

I respect your right to step out of the conversation; however, dropping snarky comments as you go is immature.

 

[Heart_Melody]

I suppose the women Prophets, judge, or the fact that the very first people Jesus appeared to was women. Mary running and sharing the good news. Isnt that all we are called to do is share the good news?

I kind of agree on that one.
I don't see it anywhere where Jesus said "Make a Mega Church and have a Dude stand on stage and give a message."
He said to those who believed him to go make disciples... And that isn't restricted to girls or boys.
And also the format of "church" was for people to use their gifts during worship and gatherings. "To prophecy, to sing spiritual songs as they were led and to speak in tongues and to interpret." They even regulated the minimum and maximum of those occurrences in each meeting.

The way I look at that is: Go live your life for Christ, make disciples and learn about God, share his goodness and serve your community. Then out of the joy and overflow of your heart come back to celebrate all that the Lord has done.
Teach each other of his goodness, tell everyone how he has healed and saved people. NOT: Lets sit around and listen to a sermon... grumbling if the pastor goes over a few minutes with our thoughts on the lunch reservations that have been made.

 

[Whispered]

13 "For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression"

.....Why did Paul give this as the reason he doesn't allow women to teach/exercise authority?

Perhaps because the Saint Apostle Paul forgot that it was through Adam that sin entered the world.
What is the greater lapse? Being the doorway through which sin entered paradise and the world? Or being an innocent minded new creation of God, standing there with Adam beside her, and being persuaded by a greater intellect, the serpent, to eat of a fruit that could only be at issue because it as planted in the garden God created and, having gazed upon it all in its completion, judged it good?

Eve was misled by a wiser mind in a serpent allowed to enter Eden.
However, it was through Adam that sin entered the world.
Not through Eve.

That doesn't make for an example of the male having a higher intellect so as to lead when if it wasn't for Adam sin would not have entered the world.
We know this because it was by Adam that sin did enter. Not by the woman.

 

[Whispered]

"For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression"

Adam was with her! And did not step in to stop Eve from eating of the fruit. When it was to Adam directly , not Eve, that God gave the command, thou shalt not eat! Adam failed to lead Eve to not obey the leading of the serpent.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I kind of agree on that one.
I don't see it anywhere where Jesus said "Make a Mega Church and have a Dude stand on stage and give a message."
He said to those who believed him to go make disciples... And that isn't restricted to girls or boys.
And also the format of "church" was for people to use their gifts during worship and gatherings. "To prophecy, to sing spiritual songs as they were led and to speak in tongues and to interpret." They even regulated the minimum and maximum of those occurrences in each meeting.

The way I look at that is: Go live your life for Christ, make disciples and learn about God, share his goodness and serve your community. Then out of the joy and overflow of your heart come back to celebrate all that the Lord has done.
Teach each other of his goodness, tell everyone how he has healed and saved people. NOT: Lets sit around and listen to a sermon... grumbling if the pastor goes over a few minutes with our thoughts on the lunch reservations that have been made.

Sermons are good but too often it feels as if the words fall on deaf ears. Go is an action word. We must be doing the will of God not just hearing it and only letting it benefit ourselves. It is almost like once saved people forget others are spiritually dying around them.

What the legalist, traditionalist, or the extremist forget is God's message is to all who will hear and believe. If it is a woman or a man who get them to that point and now a soul is saved, then forgive me for not getting bogged down on highly debated details. Because in my mind the Great Commission far outweighs many of the theological details that denominations fight over. Let the individual after redemption work out the details in their time and in God's will. The unbelievers are not ready for such whole food. And by fighting and dividing over whole food, the new believers are in the back choking.

In less something is extremely heretical as in a teaching completely or almost completely denies the core doctrines of the Bible. Then and only then we should be United in the division of such teaching.