Are WOMEN Pastors Biblical??

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
May 12, 2016
165
14
18
Brother old Major :)

I like what you stated below and will add my comments below your two statements for review.

This is why you stated “I will give you what I think is the reason behinds God's direction.”

1.
The creation order is the first reason Paul gives for prohibiting women from teaching or exercising authority in the church
.
Paul doesn’t ground his command in cultural considerations or a particular problem with the women in the Ephesian church. Rather, he grounds his command in creation. He says that the reason women are not to teach or exercise authority over men in the church is that....
“Adam was formed first, then Eve”. Paul means that God established Adam as the head and authority of his wife, Eve. God designed men to lead.

Brother, I think it was partly cultural and the best way he knew to try to establish order. Just like when Israel found themselves in the deserts and they thought abandoned by Moses they went with what they knew. Started making golden idols like in Egypt.

However, let’s go with what you stated, Adam was first then Eve. Now if this correct? Then my question is this. Since the church is seen as the bride of Christ, which has come from the same lineage as Israel. Us being born again becoming betrothed to the Son. That we are married to the the groom Jesus the Christ which is the head of the church. Then being all women and subservient now, who amount is then is made worthy to speak on behalf of the head? Is the bride divided? What do we see in the teachings of how a man should treat a woman and how a woman should treat a man in marriage? Then if being born again we are now being given the dower of marriage paid by Jesus, holding to a contract for the marriage supper being the bride of Christ, and therefore subservient to our groom the head Jesus. Then again, who is the woman and who is the head?



2.
The nature of women is the second reason Paul gives for prohibiting them from teaching or exercising authority in the church.
Paul says, “Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor” (1 Tim 2:14). Paul is saying something about the natural constitution of men and women, that men as a class are naturally more fitted to teach and have authority in the church, but women are not.
Dr. Wayne Grudem says, “This is by far the most common viewpoint in the history of the interpretation of this passage” (Evangelical Feminism & Biblical Truth 70).[/QUOTE]

Brother, what happened when Adam told God she made me do it? Was he any less guilty then her? She didn’t make him eat it. She offered it, he ate it. We are all born sinners and lost. We must realize we are all sinners and from whence we have fallen so we can repent, be forgi n and return. If we are all sinners and it is apparent God didn’t accept, “she made me do it” as a valid argument for sin. I think this argument of authority due to who sinned first is null and void. She did fall first and led him to temptation, but he still did it. That doesn’t make her any less in God’s eyes does it? For if out of the womb of flesh came death, but also out of the womb of flesh came forth the salvation of man and life everlasting. Then who if anyone has made amends in the flesh?

A brother in Christ
 
Apr 18, 2021
97
5
8
Why we cant compare the OT with the NT?
Why we cant compare the law for the nation of Israel with the NT instructions for the church of Jesus?
Ore is both the same?
I see an difference.
The same who put in Deborah, says a woman should not rule over man.
The same gave the woman the consequence for eating from the tree of wisedom:. Pain by giving birth to a child. And the man will rule over her.
The same said the Man should love his wife, as Jesus loved the church.
The answer to the OP question is no.
"Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." (I Corinthians 10:11)!

"How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" (Jeremiah 8:8)!

"I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past." (Ecclesiastes 3:14-15).

"GOD DOESN'T CHANGE" (Malachi 3:6)!
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
7,166
2,053
113
Thank you but I asked :
  • Was not Deborah Judge/ prophetess?
  • And is a judge/prophet in context to a pastor of the New Testament?
  • Due to Deborah was called prophetess can we assume that is transferred to a Pastor in the New Testament?
FYI a preacher is an action not an office like PASTOR OR PROPHET

Thank you,
in advance for your answering my questions.

let be clear :

A person called Preacher doesn't need to hold an office because the name identifies with the action of one who preaches under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Thank you

in advance of answering my above questions again.
 
Apr 18, 2021
97
5
8
Brother old Major :)

I like what you stated below and will add my comments below your two statements for review.

This is why you stated “I will give you what I think is the reason behinds God's direction.”

1.
The creation order is the first reason Paul gives for prohibiting women from teaching or exercising authority in the church
.
Paul doesn’t ground his command in cultural considerations or a particular problem with the women in the Ephesian church. Rather, he grounds his command in creation. He says that the reason women are not to teach or exercise authority over men in the church is that....
“Adam was formed first, then Eve”. Paul means that God established Adam as the head and authority of his wife, Eve. God designed men to lead.

Brother, I think it was partly cultural and the best way he knew to try to establish order. Just like when Israel found themselves in the deserts and they thought abandoned by Moses they went with what they knew. Started making golden idols like in Egypt.

However, let’s go with what you stated, Adam was first then Eve. Now if this correct? Then my question is this. Since the church is seen as the bride of Christ, which has come from the same lineage as Israel. Us being born again becoming betrothed to the Son. That we are married to the the groom Jesus the Christ which is the head of the church. Then being all women and subservient now, who amount is then is made worthy to speak on behalf of the head? Is the bride divided? What do we see in the teachings of how a man should treat a woman and how a woman should treat a man in marriage? Then if being born again we are now being given the dower of marriage paid by Jesus, holding to a contract for the marriage supper being the bride of Christ, and therefore subservient to our groom the head Jesus. Then again, who is the woman and who is the head?


2.
The nature of women is the second reason Paul gives for prohibiting them from teaching or exercising authority in the church.
Paul says, “Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor” (1 Tim 2:14). Paul is saying something about the natural constitution of men and women, that men as a class are naturally more fitted to teach and have authority in the church, but women are not.
Dr. Wayne Grudem says, “This is by far the most common viewpoint in the history of the interpretation of this passage” (Evangelical Feminism & Biblical Truth 70).
Brother, what happened when Adam told God she made me do it? Was he any less guilty then her? She didn’t make him eat it. She offered it, he ate it. We are all born sinners and lost. We must realize we are all sinners and from whence we have fallen so we can repent, be forgi n and return. If we are all sinners and it is apparent God didn’t accept, “she made me do it” as a valid argument for sin. I think this argument of authority due to who sinned first is null and void. She did fall first and led him to temptation, but he still did it. That doesn’t make her any less in God’s eyes does it? For if out of the womb of flesh came death, but also out of the womb of flesh came forth the salvation of man and life everlasting. Then who if anyone has made amends in the flesh?

A brother in Christ[/QUOTE]

If a woman isn't married, then what? Isn't she subject to Christ? What makes a married woman any different when speaking of Spiritual things? That's the problem today in Christianity, people are mixing natural things with Spiritual things. When a woman is subject to a man it's in the natural and NOT in the Spirit (Romans 8:9).

"...as though she was never married..." is all I can hear God saying!
 
Apr 18, 2021
97
5
8
Thank you but I asked :
  • Was not Deborah Judge/ prophetess?
  • And is a judge/prophet in context to a pastor of the New Testament?
  • Due to Deborah was called prophetess can we assume that is transferred to a Pastor in the New Testament?
FYI a preacher is an action not an office like PASTOR OR PROPHET

Thank you,
in advance for your answering my questions.
"SENT" by GOD is "SENT"

"He whom GOD has SENT the Spirit is given without measure" (John 3:34).

The Word doesn't specify!
 
Apr 18, 2021
97
5
8
let be clear :

A person called Preacher doesn't need to hold an office because the name identifies with the action of one who preaches under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Thank you

in advance of answering my above questions again.
SENT" by GOD is "SENT"

"He whom GOD has SENT the Spirit is given without measure" (John 3:34).

The Word doesn't specify!
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
7,166
2,053
113
"SENT" by GOD is "SENT"

"He whom GOD has SENT the Spirit is given without measure" (John 3:34).

The Word doesn't specify!
Ok sent doesn't transfer to Pastor, does it?
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
7,166
2,053
113
SENT" by GOD is "SENT"

"He whom GOD has SENT the Spirit is given without measure" (John 3:34).

The Word doesn't specify!
are not those in the fivefold ministries have distinction? The Spirit without Measure does that mean Saul was a prophet because He prophesied or Just a King as the office he was anointed to do?


Thank you for your answer in advance
 

Aidan1

Active member
Mar 17, 2021
335
117
43
I didn’t say that elders and deacons are the same; I said that the requirement “husband of one wife” is the same for both.
I am finnishing here. Believe it if you want that woman pastors are biblical.
Even, there is no proof for it.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
17,478
9,584
113
I am finnishing here. Believe it if you want that woman pastors are biblical.
Even, there is no proof for it.
You seem ticked off; that's unfortunate. You had seemed like you were engaged in the conversation.

Oh well. Since you conclude that there is no proof for "women pastors", you must also conclude that there is no proof for gentile pastors either. ;)
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
499
262
63
London
That is a lot of work. Why didn't YOU just ask me????

Romans 16:1.........
"I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea" (KJV).​
"I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deaconess of the church at Cenchrea" (Revised Standard Version).​
In this passage the word diakonos appears in the Greek text and is translated "servant" in the King James Version and "deaconess" in the Revised Standard Version. It is also translated "servant" in the American Standard Version, New American Standard Version, New King James Version, New International Version and Diaglott as well as some others.

Among those that translate diakonos to mean "deaconess" are the following translations:
Williams, Moffatt, Macknight and Living Oracles. It also appears in the margin of the ASV as "deaconess."

  1. Ordinarly it simply means a "servant" or "minister." In the case of diakonos being translated "deacon" in Philippians 1:1 and I Timothy 3:8-11, the context demands (or at least justifies) that such be done. Note: The context of Romans 16:1 does not demand (nor justify) that diakonos be translated "deaconess."
  2. There are no specific qualifications given for deaconesses. If the New Testament does authorize deaconesses, we do not know which women should be selected and appointed to be deaconesses.
Source: Does the New Testament Authorize Deaconesses? (lavistachurchofchrist.org)
I imagine the qualifications necessary are the same as for deacons
 
Dec 13, 2013
1,372
227
63
It has plenty to do with those who say women must stay silent and may not take a leadership role.

Gladys Ayleward was rejected by the Inland China Mission as unsuitable for work in China before the war. But she knew God was calling her. Now listen

There are many, many women in this place. Everybody tells them NO, you are not suited, not qualified and they point to these scriptures. Those scriptures are hard, there is no getting around that but they can be softened by a more balanced reading of scripture.

The call persists ... Gladys went to China anyway, nor was it easy.

There in the mountainous inner land eventually she established christian assemblies where the gospel never had been preached and God worked in miracles. What is she then? apostle? evangelist? pastor? teacher? among folks who never heard the gospel?.

It has been said on this thread that the pentecostals are to blame but it is a fact that on the mission fields of the world the women have always been valued.

The question is not can the women lead up a work but may they? I say they can and they may.
Whatever you say, your view cannot overide the scriptures to be correct. I have noted that those who claim the scripture supports female elders seem to ignore Timothy and Titus regarding the instructions Paul gave Timothy in appointing Elders. I have asked this several times without receiving an adequate answer and that is how can a woman be the husband of one wife?
 
Whatever you say, your view cannot overide the scriptures to be correct. I have noted that those who claim the scripture supports female elders seem to ignore Timothy and Titus regarding the instructions Paul gave Timothy in appointing Elders. I have asked this several times without receiving an adequate answer and that is how can a woman be the husband of one wife?
I suppose that the argument would be that Paul was reminding them of the specifications for a man who wished To be an elder, Perhaps addressing situations where a male Elder Had been setting an ungodly example - his letters often were replies, responding to concerns brought to his attention, and dealt with situations and details we are not privy to.

A woman who wished to be an elder wouldn’t have had to worry about having more than one husband as it wasn’t the done thing, and so wouldn’t have needed to be brought up. Perhaps there were women elders but the general behaviour of them wasn’t raising concerns at that time?

A lot of ifs and buts and maybes...

The thing is you do have to ignore - or put an assuming spin on - certain scriptures to Justify holding a view one way or the other on this issue.

It is right to be convinced in our own mind of our convictions, but that’s as much as anyone can honestly say they are on such matters.

Where scripture appears to disagree, you have to cover all of the texts and explain why you disregard some in favour of making doctrine of others, and to do so with both meekness and wisdom and leave the Holy Spirit persuade others - if indeed you are right. Few can do this without becoming insulting, angry and dismissive, and ignoring the manner in which we should share our understanding, as laid out in 2 Timothy 2 in the process.

“The wisdom that comes from above” is invaluable, but equally important to not is the way “wisdom” is delivered is a strong indication of How wise it really is and if it is from God or not.
 

Major

Active member
Dec 12, 2020
644
139
43
Why would GOD choose the woman Deborah as Judge and rule over Israel if women can't rule?

"GOD DOESN'T CHANGE" (Malachi 3:6)!

"Judges 4:1-24 and 5:1-31. Deborah was the only woman Judge or Ruler of Israel. She ruled about 1237BC—1198BC, she was also a prophetess. She was the wife of Lapidoth and held court under the palm tree of Deborah. Deborah seems to have held her court under the palm tree of Deborah for a number of years, this may have been for more than thirty years."

"Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." (I Corinthians 10:11)!

"How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" (Jeremiah 8:8)!
It has nothing whatsoever to do with Deborah. You are trying to use an example that has NO application in any way.

She was not an ordained Pastor or deacon or Priest.
 

Major

Active member
Dec 12, 2020
644
139
43
  • Was not Deborah Judge/ prophetess?
  • And is a judge/prophet in context to a pastor of the New Testament?
  • Due to Deborah was called prophetess can we assume that is transferred to a Pastor in the New Testament?

Thank you,
in advance for your answering my questions.
1. Yes she was.

2. NO.

3. NO.

Deborah was truly remarkable: a judge, a military strategist, a poet, and a prophet. But she was not an ordained Pastor and neither was she a Priest!

I’m not sure that I’ve ever heard anyone narrowly equate “leadership in the church” with “preaching from the pulpit”. To say that Deborah was a prophetess and a leader in Israel, does not say anything about whether or not women should be preachers in the church.

Suppose I had a cat named Lucy. Suppose I told you that because Lucy is a cat and because cats are animals and because dogs are animals, therefore Lucy is a dog. I’m not sure you would find that convincing because, while all cats are animals, not all animals are cats. My argument is built upon a significant category error as is your assumption.
 

Major

Active member
Dec 12, 2020
644
139
43
I suppose that the argument would be that Paul was reminding them of the specifications for a man who wished To be an elder, Perhaps addressing situations where a male Elder Had been setting an ungodly example - his letters often were replies, responding to concerns brought to his attention, and dealt with situations and details we are not privy to.

A woman who wished to be an elder wouldn’t have had to worry about having more than one husband as it wasn’t the done thing, and so wouldn’t have needed to be brought up. Perhaps there were women elders but the general behaviour of them wasn’t raising concerns at that time?

A lot of ifs and buts and maybes...

The thing is you do have to ignore - or put an assuming spin on - certain scriptures to Justify holding a view one way or the other on this issue.

It is right to be convinced in our own mind of our convictions, but that’s as much as anyone can honestly say they are on such matters.

Where scripture appears to disagree, you have to cover all of the texts and explain why you disregard some in favour of making doctrine of others, and to do so with both meekness and wisdom and leave the Holy Spirit persuade others - if indeed you are right. Few can do this without becoming insulting, angry and dismissive, and ignoring the manner in which we should share our understanding, as laid out in 2 Timothy 2 in the process.

“The wisdom that comes from above” is invaluable, but equally important to not is the way “wisdom” is delivered is a strong indication of How wise it really is and if it is from God or not.
You said............
"Where scripture appears to disagree, you have to cover all of the texts and explain why you disregard some in favour of making doctrine of others, and to do so with both meekness and wisdom and leave the Holy Spirit persuade others - if indeed you are right. "

However, in this debate there are NO conflicting Scriptures to disagree with.

1 Timothy 3:1-2..........
"This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach"

There are NO Scriptures which state that a woman is allowed to be ordained as a Pastor/Deacon......NONE!
 

Major

Active member
Dec 12, 2020
644
139
43
Because HE CAN!

But that does not mean that women today are called to be Pastors because the Word of God says that ....."If a MAN desires to be a bishop"!
 

Major

Active member
Dec 12, 2020
644
139
43
Why is this an issue at all in today's Christianity?

"God is not the author of confusion" (I Corinthians 14:33). True Christians "Worship in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24). "For there is no respect of persons with God" (Romans 2:11). "There is neither male nor female in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28).

"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" (Jeremiah 8:8).

When there is a dispute concerning the gospel of Christ (Hebrews 6:1-3)

"Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein" (Jeremiah 6:16).

Is there going to be a male section in heaven?

Ask yourself, why would God choose Judge Deborah to rule over Israel if women are not to rule?

"This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men" (Daniel 4:17).

"...till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will (Daniel 4:25).

"...until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will (Daniel 4:32).

In the New Covenant Chapter of Jeremiah 31 (v22) God said "...for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man."

Consequently "the old path" (Jeremiah 6:16) has spoken! Will you "walk therein" (Jeremiah 6:16)?

"FORGET NOT" (Hebrews 13:16)!

'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" (Jeremiah 8:8).
WHY?????????

1 Timothy 4:1-5 ...........
"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer."

God said MAN is to be a Pastor but we....lead by women who what authority say the opposite! Men have wives and mothers so they cower down to the womans desires and here we are......like it or not, there it is!