Are WOMEN Pastors Biblical??

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Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Good excuses, but they will not sustain an argument against God's HOLY LAW.

What exactly do you hate about the LAW? ...

When you jump on your pedestal and proclaim loud and long that the LAW is of no value to Christians, then no Christian is saved because salvation is determined BY THE LAW.
I have not stated or implied anywhere that I hate anything about the Law, and I have not stated or implied anywhere that the Law is of no value to Christians. If you want to act the idiot by making such baseless implications, I'm not interested in continuing this discussion. If you want respectful and fruitful dialogue, then you can begin by responding to what I HAVE said, not to what I haven't. Otherwise, you're just the male version of Blik... and that's not a compliment.
 
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Biblically-literate Christians understand that the Law is written on our hearts, and that the Holy Spirit is working within us to conform us to Christ. Self-willed obedience to the Law only makes people self-righteous. Further, because it is IMPOSSIBLE to obey the Law, it is pointless to try. Jesus offered us a better way.


Some uninformed people perhaps do believe that. Biblically-literate Christians don't.


Irrelevant to this discussion.


Also irrelevant, though I am inclined to agree with you on this point.


I agree; neither saves, and I haven't suggested otherwise. What does save is belief in the Person and finished work of Jesus Christ.


Clearly you have issues with some branches of the Church. That's fine; so do I. however, don't make the asinine mistake of assuming that everyone who disagrees with you on any point is ignorant of scriptural truth.


This is speaking about the world system, not the Church.


Because it wasn't intended to be "good enough" for the Church. The Law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, not a taskmaster to bring us to heaven.
[/QUOTE]

Literacy implies knowledge of and application of LITERATURE - specifically the Bible.

When I write about Christian Biblical illiteracy I speak to those who comfortably rip out half the Bible (OT) and falsely assume some sort of magic will illuminate their empty skulls with knowledge they haven't worked for or deserve.

This sort of gnostic heresy was common in the early church and is warned against in the epistles.

Twisting words into a new meaning not originally intended is the devil's work and is not consummate with good scholarship. Unfortunately it is consistent with the modern post protestant church.

Ignorance is not evidence of divine inspiration. It only proves stupidity.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,401
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Literacy implies knowledge of and application of LITERATURE - specifically the Bible.

When I write about Christian Biblical illiteracy I speak to those who comfortably rip out half the Bible (OT) and falsely assume some sort of magic will illuminate their empty skulls with knowledge they haven't worked for or deserve.

This sort of gnostic heresy was common in the early church and is warned against in the epistles.

Twisting words into a new meaning not originally intended is the devil's work and is not consummate with good scholarship. Unfortunately it is consistent with the modern post protestant church.

Ignorance is not evidence of divine inspiration. It only proves stupidity.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
If you have a problem with "most Christians", take it up with God. I'm not "most Christians" and I'm not interested in discussing what you believe about them.
 
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I have not stated or implied anywhere that I hate anything about the Law, and I have not stated or implied anywhere that the Law is of no value to Christians. If you want to act the idiot by making such baseless implications, I'm not interested in continuing this discussion. If you want respectful and fruitful dialogue, then you can begin by responding to what I HAVE said, not to what I haven't. Otherwise, you're just the male version of Blik... and that's not a compliment.
Everything you've written is in opposition to what I've attributed to the LAW.

You've denied it point by unfounded point. Stating later that you aren't opposed to the LAW doesn't erase those posts. I can only assume you are quite confused about your theology.

I'm only attempting to correct that situation, misandric accusations notwithstanding.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,401
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Everything you've written is in opposition to what I've attributed to the LAW.
Exactly! That means I have addressed your errors.

You've denied it point by unfounded point.
My points are very well-founded on Scripture.

Stating later that you aren't opposed to the LAW doesn't erase those posts.
I didn't state that either. I'm beginning to think you ARE Blik.

I can only assume you are quite confused about your theology.
That goes right along with all your other ridiculous and unwarranted assumptions.

I'm only attempting to correct that situation, misandric accusations notwithstanding.
"Misandric accusations"? Wow... for all your verbosity, you haven't learned how to relate to people. I'm done with your brand of stupid.
 
Aug 16, 2020
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Literacy implies knowledge of and application of LITERATURE - specifically the Bible.

When I write about Christian Biblical illiteracy I speak to those who comfortably rip out half the Bible (OT) and falsely assume some sort of magic will illuminate their empty skulls with knowledge they haven't worked for or deserve.

This sort of gnostic heresy was common in the early church and is warned against in the epistles.

Twisting words into a new meaning not originally intended is the devil's work and is not consummate with good scholarship. Unfortunately it is consistent with the modern post protestant church.

Ignorance is not evidence of divine inspiration. It only proves stupidity.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
If you have a problem with "most Christians", take it up with God. I'm not "most Christians" and I'm not interested in discussing what you believe about them.[/QUOTE]

You should be interested in something other than your own opinion. There's a big world out there beyond your keyboard.

You need to do more reading outside these limited pages.

Many pastors theologians and scholars beginning with the last half of the twentieth century to the present day have written and spoken about the dilution of the gospel, the rampant illiteracy of the average church member, and the increasing political and social impact on Biblical righteousness - otherwise referred to as LAWful living.

Even statistics bear this out. As I wrote earlier the church is suffering a dwindling attendance as described by PEW and Gallup poll organizations. Regular attendance described as once a month has shriveled in 2010 to 50% of 1949 levels. It's projected to fall to 10% by the year 2050.

The main reason for this reduction in attendance is LACK of a firm foundation in religious belief and living. The Judeo-Christian foundation is the LAW of Moses. It is and has been that and that alone. When secular humanism and political correctness is injected into the church experience the whole matter is seen by secular folks as a cheap theatric production. Indeed every Sunday morning is a dog and pony show as close to a Vegas style production number as the local budget will allow.

Add to this sorry state of affairs the FACT that major denominations have DENIED the Bible as THE INSPIRED WORD OF GOD and you've got a recipe for disaster.

I went to a biker bar once to preach about Christ. One of the fellows there said that they were better than church people
"Why," I asked.
"Because we know we are sinners and we know what we're doing. People in church don't have a clue," he said.

He may have been lacking a high school diploma, but his opinion was theologically truthful and accurate.

....and the situation is getting worse.....

Denying it or crying foul of the message does nothing at all to glorify God or add credence to a corrupt church.

I'm sorry if you don't like the truth. You should get out more and see what's going on.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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I just wanted to recommend some good books on women and leadership. They do use some Greek and Hebrew, but with solid instructions about what the words mean. Some are very theological, others simpler.

Finally Feminist: A Pragmatic Understanding Of Gender: Why Both side are Wrong - and Right" John G. Stackhouse, Jr.

"What Paul Really Said About Women: An Apostle's Liberating Views on Equality I hope Marriage, Leadership and Love." John Temple Ristow

"Half the Church: Recapturing God's Global Vision for Women:" Carolyn Curtis James

"Women in the Church: A Biblical Theology of Women in Ministry: Stanley J. Grenz & Denise Muir Kjesbo (Grenz is my favourite theologian, and most used text in first year seminary.)

"Men & Women in the Church: Building Consensus on Christian Leadership." Sarah Sumner PhD.

"Why Not Women? A Biblical Study of Women in Missions, Ministry and Leadership. Loren Cunningham & David J. Hamilton.

"Slaves, Women and Homosexuals: Exploring the Hermeneutics of Cultural Analysis." William J. Webb


These are a few books you should be reading to understand why women should be equal in church and leadership. Enjoy!
 
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If there's anyone who's avatar matches their writing style, it is Choirloft.
:ROFL::ROFL:
It is interesting to note that Christians, who like to tell themselves they are little 'lights of God', tend to devolve into creatures obsessed with ridicule when they fail to 'show the way' to those who've gone off the rails. They fail because they do not know the way themselves and so they express their hate for those who do.

Jesus experienced the same sort of ridicule in His day. As a follower of His I welcome it. By these things do I know and understand I'm in the right.

Thank you for your insults and ignorant remarks. I am gratified that they prove the truth of what I've been writing all along.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 
Aug 16, 2020
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I just wanted to recommend some good books on women and leadership. They do use some Greek and Hebrew, but with solid instructions about what the words mean. Some are very theological, others simpler.

Finally Feminist: A Pragmatic Understanding Of Gender: Why Both side are Wrong - and Right" John G. Stackhouse, Jr.

"What Paul Really Said About Women: An Apostle's Liberating Views on Equality I hope Marriage, Leadership and Love." John Temple Ristow

"Half the Church: Recapturing God's Global Vision for Women:" Carolyn Curtis James

"Women in the Church: A Biblical Theology of Women in Ministry: Stanley J. Grenz & Denise Muir Kjesbo (Grenz is my favourite theologian, and most used text in first year seminary.)

"Men & Women in the Church: Building Consensus on Christian Leadership." Sarah Sumner PhD.

"Why Not Women? A Biblical Study of Women in Missions, Ministry and Leadership. Loren Cunningham & David J. Hamilton.

"Slaves, Women and Homosexuals: Exploring the Hermeneutics of Cultural Analysis." William J. Webb


These are a few books you should be reading to understand why women should be equal in church and leadership. Enjoy!
Interesting how people who REFUSE to follow God's Word provide a long list of literary garbage opposing it. Nazis and Communists are especially good at it. So too are those who support American politically correct ideas that corrupt the culture and drive it to destruction.

Read the Bible. It shows God's way and how He dispenses authority. Rebellion against God is SIN, by the way.

It is time to repent and seek God's mercy and truth.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,786
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Interesting how people who REFUSE to follow God's Word provide a long list of literary garbage opposing it. Nazis and Communists are especially good at it. So too are those who support American politically correct ideas that corrupt the culture and drive it to destruction.

Read the Bible. It shows God's way and how He dispenses authority. Rebellion against God is SIN, by the way.

It is time to repent and seek God's mercy and truth.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

I agree the Bible has to be first. But which Bible? The antiquated and obsolete KJV? Or Greek and Hebrew? Or a modern translation?

I have read the entire Bible cover to cover over 50 times. I have also studied it. I've read it in French, the NT in Greek several times, quite a few books of the OT in Hebrew, and I am working through the NT in German!

I know the Bible well enough to recommend books that are based on the Bible. I don't usually recommend books, but this round of this repetitious topic, I thought it would be appropriate for people who want to look into the topic a little more deeply than just hollering the same old same old.

So of course, if you don't want to read them, just keep scrolling. That's Christian maturity! Instead of insisting that people you don't agree with are sinners needing to repent. Talk about attacking the person, instead of the ideas!
 
Aug 16, 2020
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I agree the Bible has to be first. But which Bible? The antiquated and obsolete KJV? Or Greek and Hebrew? Or a modern translation?

I have read the entire Bible cover to cover over 50 times. I have also studied it. I've read it in French, the NT in Greek several times, quite a few books of the OT in Hebrew, and I am working through the NT in German!

I know the Bible well enough to recommend books that are based on the Bible. I don't usually recommend books, but this round of this repetitious topic, I thought it would be appropriate for people who want to look into the topic a little more deeply than just hollering the same old same old.

So of course, if you don't want to read them, just keep scrolling. That's Christian maturity! Instead of insisting that people you don't agree with are sinners needing to repent. Talk about attacking the person, instead of the ideas!
Congratulations on your Biblical scholarship. That being said, I'm sure you must agree that most who profess to be Christians haven't opened the book in years. If they did so, it's just to peruse a few commonly quoted passages. There is little or no real study going on among Christians these days.

Your references to "attacking the person, instead of the ideas" betrays a lack of understanding of scripture despite your many iterations through its pages. Which persons have I attacked? What are their names or screen names or avatar names? Do you know them? If so, please remind me of those I have personally attacked. I doubt you can because I have not done so. This is a false accusation - a false witness against me and a VIOLATION OF THE 9th COMMANDMENT. Perhaps you believe you are above God's LAW and that it doesn't apply to you? It certainly does - to you and I and everyone, always. Very strange attitude for one who claims to have read the Bible fifty times.

For when one of you says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere men?
5What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? They are servants through whom you believed, as the Lord has assigned to each his role. 6I planted the seed and Apollos watered it, but God made it grow.
1 Corinthians 3:4-6

The common error in the church today is dilution of the gospel and failure to acknowledge the basic tenants of Holy Writ.

First and foremost is the idea that one MUST repent to be saved. Apart from the LAW no one can be saved. This is NOT acknowledged by the apostate church today because it has become infested with ideology from secular sources as well as pastors who have no other motivation than to enlarge their religious empire - to obtain greater and greater contribution$. These have one hand on the Bible and the other in someone else's pocket. I've seen the pattern repeated many times. Personalities and religious celebrities do not and can not replace the truth of scripture. Sad to say they often do.

What do you mean by "look into the topic"? I assume you prefer sources outside the Bible and voices and writings that do not agree with scripture. These same sources serve to subvert God's authority, which is clearly stated and which can be clearly understood without establishing a library of differing translations. The lies of the enemy are often shrouded in the words of celebrities.

Your claims to be well read carry no weight with me. I hold a Master's degree in theology from an established seminary and can testify that it means nothing to anyone - certainly not to you. If past accomplishments are to be bandied about as though they meant something, then consider mine as well. I know you will not respect it - only your own opinions.

We now arrive at the bottom line of the discussion. The church today, meaning apostate Christians, cares NOTHING about God's Word or what it commands of us. The church is Ichabod (1 Sam 4:21). American society is drunk on it's own opinion. For the most part our society doesn't care about God at all. These opinions carry no real weight with heaven, only God's Word is of importance. It is therefore our duty to know it and seek it and do it - not masking His truth with our own perversions of ideology however common or accepted they may be.

It is time to repent, to humbly seek God's forgiveness and will for us and to cease dictating terms to the Most High. It is SINNERs who are destined for destruction - not ideologies. Thus it is of utmost importance for SINNERs to repent....because their will is in direct opposition to God and His purposes.

Time is short and we must all of us seek Him with great diligence. Judgement is not far away from any of us.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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Gen 3:12
And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

A critical verse with regard to the "women pastors" question.....
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,401
13,746
113
Gen 3:12
And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

A critical verse with regard to the "women pastors" question.....
Yes, it tells about one specific event in the life of one specific woman and says nothing whatsoever about pastors of either gender or about women in general.

Or maybe that isn’t the point you wanted to make…. ;)
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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Yes, it tells about one specific event in the life of one specific woman and says nothing whatsoever about pastors of either gender or about women in general.

Or maybe that isn’t the point you wanted to make…. ;)
But do you not realize that these verses are irreducibly conjoined?
Among many many others.

Furthermore, the relationship of the Last Adam to the Church is precisely that of Adam to Eve, Adam being a type of Christ thereby.

1Ti 2:11
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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I agree that women can teach, pray and worship and do all things, except Pastor a church either alone or as a co-pastor with her husband.

With all due respect, That idea is NOT Biblical but instead it is a denominational teaching to get around the directions given by Paul.

“A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent” (1 Timothy 2:11–12)

Verse 11 says, “Let a woman quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.”
The Greek adversative “de” (“but” in English) links verse 12 back to 11. Paul wants women to learn in the entire submissiveness.

Some even say that the Greek words “gyne” (woman) and “andros” (man) mean wife and husband. This would render the verse as, “But I do not allow a wife to teach or exercise authority over a husband, but to remain quiet.” (1 Tim. 2:12). Supporters of this argument then conclude that this would not prevent a woman from being a pastor since this is not speaking of women in general but only wives in relation to their husbands. Is this argument sound? No, it isn’t.

WHY????

If a wife were a pastor and her husband were in the congregation, then when she taught, she’d be teaching her husband. This can’t work–unless the husband has to leave the church each time his wife teaches. Ridiculous? You bet!

In all of the 17 English translations of the Bible I have (Darby, ASV, ESV, HCSB, ISV, KJV, NASB95, NASB, NCV, NIV, NKJV, NLT, NRSV, WUESTNT, RSV, GNB, WorrelNT, YLT), none translate the verse as wife and husband, so why do people assert that it is about a husband and wife?


The idea that Husband and wife cannot minister together is not Biblical.

Aquila and Percilia both ministered in the church setting as husband and wife as a normative in the church setting. This was done before The founding of the SB., or AOG. it in the Book of ACTS, AND PAUL CONFIRMED THEM IN HIS EPISTLES.


While in Ephesus, Priscilla and Aquila instructed the gifted preacher Apollos more accurately about the gospel, particularly about baptism (Acts 18:26). Later, when Claudius’s edict was rescinded, they returned to Rome (Rom 16:3-4).

Priscilla and Aquila are mentioned by name six times in the New Testament, always together as a couple (Acts 18:2-3, Acts 18-19, Acts 26; Rom 16:3-5; 1Cor 16:19; 2Tim 4:19). They exercised leadership among the fledgling churches and were held in high esteem.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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Yes, it tells about one specific event in the life of one specific woman and says nothing whatsoever about pastors of either gender or about women in general.

Or maybe that isn’t the point you wanted to make…. ;)
How does this sound:
Gen 3:12 ties in perfectly with Gen 15, Gen 22, all of Leviticus, and the entire NT.
Perfectly, flawlessly, inexorably, inevitably.

In fact it ties into every other verse in the Bible. One way or another. It is a foundational seminal verse.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,401
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But do you not realize that these verses are irreducibly conjoined?
Among many many others.

Furthermore, the relationship of the Last Adam to the Church is precisely that of Adam to Eve, Adam being a type of Christ thereby.

1Ti 2:11
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Conjoined? Odd choice of words. Irreducibly? Methinks you’ve been reading Michael Behe lately.

I will spare you the explanation which, no doubt, you have read before and dismissed.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,401
13,746
113
How does this sound:
Gen 3:12 ties in perfectly with Gen 15, Gen 22, all of Leviticus, and the entire NT.
Perfectly, flawlessly, inexorably, inevitably.

In fact it ties into every other verse in the Bible. One way or another. It is a foundational seminal verse.
That it ‘ties in’ with all of Scripture is not being argued. That it says that women cannot be pastors is certainly not clear.