Are WOMEN Pastors Biblical??

[CS1]

I agree that women can teach, pray and worship and do all things, except Pastor a church either alone or as a co-pastor with her husband.

With all due respect, That idea is NOT Biblical but instead it is a denominational teaching to get around the directions given by Paul.

“A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent” (1 Timothy 2:11–12)

Verse 11 says, “Let a woman quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.”
The Greek adversative “de” (“but” in English) links verse 12 back to 11. Paul wants women to learn in the entire submissiveness.

Some even say that the Greek words “gyne” (woman) and “andros” (man) mean wife and husband. This would render the verse as, “But I do not allow a wife to teach or exercise authority over a husband, but to remain quiet.” (1 Tim. 2:12). Supporters of this argument then conclude that this would not prevent a woman from being a pastor since this is not speaking of women in general but only wives in relation to their husbands. Is this argument sound? No, it isn’t.

WHY????

If a wife were a pastor and her husband were in the congregation, then when she taught, she’d be teaching her husband. This can’t work–unless the husband has to leave the church each time his wife teaches. Ridiculous? You bet!

In all of the 17 English translations of the Bible I have (Darby, ASV, ESV, HCSB, ISV, KJV, NASB95, NASB, NCV, NIV, NKJV, NLT, NRSV, WUESTNT, RSV, GNB, WorrelNT, YLT), none translate the verse as wife and husband, so why do people assert that it is about a husband and wife?

again that is your opinion you do not know what the office of pastor does nor do you understand the word of a pastor one can do.

The pastors wife helps the Pastor in the office of HIS calling. God calls both the Husband and wife. They b both must be willing to submit to the call. YOU see a Pastor job only at the Pulpit that is your issue. The Pastors wife doesn't work in that way because they are not called to that. BUT the ice of the Pastor is doing things that are for the pastor to do each day. Why? Because the Pastor can't it all. many Pastors prefer their wife over other women,en working on their staff. You are taking a hard line and assume that the husband and wife who are Pastoring a Church is unbiblical is just wrong.

 

[oyster67]

These offices/positions were always male among God's people: ["God", as Jesus], "Husband" (as Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, etc), "Father", "Son", "Priest/High Priest" (Aaron, etc), "King" (David, Solomon, etc), "Apostle" (Peter, James, John, Paul, etc), "Bishop/Elder" (John, etc), "Deacon" (Stephen, etc).

These offices/positions could be either male or female: "Teachers", "Prophets" (Daniel or Deborah, Amos or Anna, Isaiah or his wife, Malachi or Miriam, Hosea or Huldah, David or daughters of Philip, etc), and these gifts could go to either as well: "workers of miracles", "gifts of healing", "tongues/languages", "interpretation of tongues/languages".

These office/positions could only be female: "Queen" (Esther, etc), "wife" (Eve, Sarah, etc), "mother", "daughter".

Must the "Male" be a married male?

 

[Dino246]

Truth only has "one perspective", while error has plethora.

Hitler, Stalin, and Mao used similar reasoning.

 

[Dino246]

it's a question, and not a point, duh!

There's no need to be a donkey.

 

[Dino246]

That's pretty much it. Why would the KJV translate it as 'man' where it's actually 'if any' or 'whosoever' ! Literal translations translates that passage as 'anyone'

Credit that to a change in English. Until the 1990's (if not later), male pronouns were used inclusively.

 

[Dino246]

I have. Thoroughly.

Let's go in chiastic reverse:

Phoebe.

Rom 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:​

​

Rom 16:1 συνιστημι δε υμιν φοιβην την αδελφην ημων ουσαν διακονον της εκκλησιας της εν κεγχρεαις​

​

Rom 16:1 συνιστημιG4921 V-PAI-1S δεG1161 CONJ υμινG4771 P-2DP φοιβηνG5402 N-ASF τηνG3588 T-ASF αδελφηνG79 N-ASF ημωνG1473 P-1GP ουσανG1510 V-PAP-ASF διακονονG1249 N-ASF τηςG3588 T-GSF εκκλησιαςG1577 N-GSF τηςG3588 T-GSF ενG1722 PREP κεγχρεαιςG2747 N-DPF​

​

"διακονον" N-ASF, is simply the koine Greek word for "servant", and is only used as "Deacon" where it mean a position of office, in regards to specially chosen males among the church of Jesus Christ.​

Consider the word itself in its other uses:

G1249
διάκονος
diakonos
Total KJV Occurrences: 30

minister, 14​

Mat_20:26, Mar_10:43, Rom_13:4 (2), Rom_15:8, Gal_2:17, Eph_3:7, Eph_6:21, Col_1:7, Col_1:23, Col_1:25, Col_4:7, 1Th_3:2, 1Ti_4:6​

​

ministers, 6​

1Co_3:5, 2Co_3:6, 2Co_6:4, 2Co_11:15 (2), 2Co_11:23​

​

servant, 4​

Mat_23:11, Mar_9:35, Joh_12:26, Rom_16:1​

​

deacons, 3​

Php_1:1 (2), 1Ti_3:8, 1Ti_3:12​

​

servants, 3​

Mat_22:12-13 (2), Joh_2:5, Joh_2:9​

So the word simply means one who serves or ministers to another. It can specify an office, such as "Deacon", but only when it refers to the males among the Church. See Philippians 1:1; 1 Timothy 3:8,12.

Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:​

See the two offices/positions?

[1] Bishops/Elders​

​

[2] Deacons.​

These are identified as special positions, among "all the saints which are at Philippi". For not everyone carries the office of "Bishop/Elder" or "Deacon" therein.

1Ti 3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;​

​

1Ti 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.​

In vs twelve, we see the distinction between a "deacon" which is "the husband" (male), which "rule(s)" "their children" and "their houses" (home church) well, and the "wife" (female) who is not a "deacon" in such office as the Husband is. She may indeed be a server, one who ministers to others, in the church, but is not classed as a "Deacon" (office/position). The "deacons" are of the some qualifications as "Elders" in 1 Timothy 3:1-7.

​

1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;​

​

1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;​

​

1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)​

The head of household, is the husband, which is why the translators translate the words as "man" (vs 5) and "his" (vs 4,5) and "he" (vs 7), rather than 'one' (meaning any person). The context is the "husband" (vs 2; G435, "ανδρα"), which is only a male according to scripture.

Fallacy: circular reasoning.

 

[Scribe]

Basically correct. Women can teach just fine, even from 'the pulpit', 'street corner', etc. The matter of church office/position is differing entirely from such. They cannot be in the office/position of "Priest/High Priest", "Apostle", "Elder/Bishop/Presbyter", "Deacon". Paul was dealing with matters 'authority' and incorrect use thereof. Teaching is basically instructing. It is not commanding. The same position that a woman as a wife has in the home church, is the same she can hold in the larger church (congregation) gathering. Can she teach her children in the home? Yes, so then she can teach in the church. Doe the woman/wife take the postion of the head of the home, the husband? No, thus she cannot take such a place in the larger context. To do so, is the same theological position Lucifer had in regards the Son of God in Heaven. He sought to usurp authority and poition that did not belong to him. That is stepping beyond the bounds/position granted him. Could Lucifer teach, and disseminate information from Christ in Heaven? Yes. When he was cast out, he took his theology and gave it to Eve, and she bought into that same lie. She thought she could rise above her sphere/office/position, and because of such fell far below her original position (she became a sinner subject to a sinner - satan). So will all women who seek to do the same in knowledge (not speaking of the ignorant, for God winks there, and calls all to repent).

There were female deacons in the first churches.

And women are included when he calls us Kings and Priests that shall reign on the earth.

So.. there is that.

 

[Magenta]

am I typing in a foreign language that no one understands ?
"Has anyone" is the question.
Is it some sort of trick question ?

It seems to be you who does not understand what is meant to be asked, what was the point of asking?

Unless you do things for no reason at all

 

[Sipsey]

One more comment I'll add, regarding the thread title: strictly speaking, "women pastors" are not biblical; there aren't any women identified as pastors in the New Testament. However, the New Testament does not have any record of a male who was identified as a pastor either.

All discussions swerve to the ditches when words are used differently. One first must agree upon the terms discussed before any truth can be revealed.

A serious study of the term”Pastor” will reveal that it is a word used interchangeably in Scripture with several others.

There are four Greek words rendered by seven English words. Here are the Greek, English, Strong's reference, and scripture examples

• 1. επισκοπος (episkopos)
  overseer (bishop)
  1985 cf 1983-4
  Titus 1:7, Philippians 1:1, Acts 20:28
• 2. ποιμην (poimeen)
  shepherd (pastor)
  4166 cf 4165-8
  Ephesians 4:11, 1Peter 2:25, 1Peter 5:1-4, Acts 20:28
• 3. πρεσβυτερος (presbuteros)
  elder (presbyter)
  4245 cf 4243-7
  1Peter 5:1, Titus 1:5, Acts 20:17, 1Timothy 4:14
• 4. προιστημι (proisteemi)
  VERB to rule
  4291
  1Thessalonians 5:12, 1Timothy 5:17

A comparison of these passages will show that the terms overseer, bishop, shepherd, pastor, elder, presbyter, and ruler, are synonymous and interchangeable. They are simply different words for the same thing.

 

[Major]

again that is your opinion you do not know what the office of pastor does nor do you understand the word of a pastor one can do.

The pastors wife helps the Pastor in the office of HIS calling. God calls both the Husband and wife. They b both must be willing to submit to the call. YOU see a Pastor job only at the Pulpit that is your issue. The Pastors wife doesn't work in that way because they are not called to that. BUT the ice of the Pastor is doing things that are for the pastor to do each day. Why? Because the Pastor can't it all. many Pastors prefer their wife over other women,en working on their staff. You are taking a hard line and assume that the husband and wife who are Pastoring a Church is unbiblical is just wrong.

I agree that a Pastors wife can help her husband in many ways. BUT the BIBLE prohibits her from being in the pulpit in authority over the men.

I am not taking a heard line or a soft line or actually any line at all my brother. I simply posted what the Bible says.

In my church today we have a woman music minister. The director of education is a woman. The treasurer is a woman.
Not one single woman in our church would ever stand in the pulpit and preach to the men of the church because every single woman know what the Bible actually says.

YOU are free to change the Word of God any way you want to but I personally can not do that.

 

[Major]

There were female deacons in the first churches.

And women are included when he calls us Kings and Priests that shall reign on the earth.

So.. there is that.

But.......that does not say that women can be Bishops/Pastors now does it.

Romans 16:1 is the only reference to Phoebe with the same word Paul uses in 1 Timothy 3:12. It is unclear, though, whether Paul is saying Phoebe is a deacon or whether he is just saying she is a servant.

In the early church, women servants cared for sick believers, the poor, strangers, and those in prison. They instructed women and children. Phoebe may not have had the official designation of “deacon” but Paul thought enough of her to entrust her with the tremendous responsibility of delivering the epistle to the Romans to the church in Rome

 

[Major]

Isn't gonna happen. Do yourself a favor and move to the next subject. This has been done to death. Seriously, let it go already. We must have a hundred threads on this subject.

Then one more won't hurt will it?

 

[Major]

Has anyone read 1 Timothy 2, verse 9 - 12 ?

Yes and it confirms my post that women can not be Pastors.

 

[Major]

It's easy to understand logic, when it's so concisely exposed like you just did, people are just not listening to common sense. Not only husbands are to instruct their wives what to do. ANY MAN in church has authority to tell ANY woman what to do and she needs to be quiet, whether she's married to him or not. So completely unknown guys also have rights to insert themselves into people's marriage and tell the wife whatever they see fit. Divorced and widowed adult and elderly women are to go back to their fathers to be under their supervision, but if their father is dead, then it is proper that ALL men in the congregation, young or old, should boss them around, they are women and cannot make mature or spiritual decisions after all.

What you are doing is called "Facetious". Now what is an example of facetious language?

An example of facetious is someone saying that people whose homes have burned down don't have to worry about whether the housekeeper did a good job.

The Bible does not say what you just posted. There are NO words that say ANY MAN in church has the authority of ANY woman.

 

[Magenta]

In the early church, women servants cared for sick believers, the poor, strangers, and those in prison. They instructed women and children. Phoebe may not have had the official designation of “deacon” but Paul thought enough of her to entrust her with the tremendous responsibility of delivering the epistle to the Romans to the church in Rome

The first person Jesus entrusted with carrying the good news of His resurrections was a woman

 

[Major]

hmm wouldn't that interpretation mean that if a woman is a pastor, she either needs to be unmarried or her husband must attend a different church? weird.

NO it does not.

Biblically, there are NO women pastors so the point is mute.

If a church has placed a woman in place as a Pastor, they are in error and are then actually under the judgment of God according to the Scriptures.

 

[Major]

The first person Jesus entrusted with carrying the good news of His resurrections was a woman

Correct! Excellent point! And the mother of Jesus was a woman....(LOL)!

However.....she was not an ordained Pastor. She was a believer, a servant as I would hope that we all are.

 

[Magenta]

Correct! Excellent point! And the mother of Jesus was a woman....(LOL)!

However.....she was not an ordained Pastor. She was a believer, a servant as I would hope that we all are.

One need not have an "official" position with the body of Christ to carry the good news.

Someone said something about a woman at the pulpit as if that in itself were exercising authority over men.

How is a woman at the pulpit exercising authority over men? Do you know? Just curious

 

[Major]

Must the "Male" be a married male?

1 Timothy 3:2........
"“A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;”

 

[Major]

One need not have an "official" position with the body of Christ to carry the good news.

Again.....Excellent point!

All we need to be is obedient.