Are you preterist or merely 'modified post-trib'?

[Grace777x70]

I gave it a listen. It was good. He definitely is on the right track. Very little to argue with. However, I have additional insight and a slightly different take on part of Dan 9. I agree, however, that the entire 70 weeks were fulfilled with the stoning of Stephen. I disagree with comments about a future antiChrist (Man of Sin - yes) but let's not get side tracked.

If you look at Mat 18:21-22 you see that Jesus taught we are to forgive our brethren 70 x 7 for their sins, IF they repent. But what if they don't repent?? JUDGMENT!!

Therefore in Dan 9 when you see this:

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city...

The word, "determined" is better translated "decreed." God is giving Israel 490 years to accomplish these things: to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, etc...

Israel did not do these things - CHRIST HAD TO DO THEM. Therefore, Israel was to face Judgment.

Ok....Thanks.

So, because Israel leaders rejected Christ - judgment was still in the works for them which came about by the Romans in 70 AD? Is that what you think?

Jesus did weep for Jerusalem because He saw what was coming upon them because of their rejection. This raises another question - was this judgment directly from God? ( It doesn't seem to be so because of Jesus' reaction to it )...or is the judgment a natural consequence of life on this earth that comes with sin itself?

 

[wolfwint]

I don't see a pre trib...

we have had some lovely preterist threads as of late with at least one preterist trying to pretend they were only trying to find out what it was when they actually wanted to talk about their favorite subject

it got old fast as some of the long time members here were acquainted with the one who started the thread and would have none of it

but I digress.............

Oh i like pretrib very much. I really don't understand people who likes to come in tribulation. I mean if you like it go to the places very Christians are persecutet. Then you will have a little taste of tribulation time. I would be glad if i am right with pretrib!

 

[wolfwint]

The "Millennial Kingdom" began in Acts 2.

And when Jesus was sitting on the throne of David in Jerusalem? And where was the peace in this time? And when then came Satan with his army after the 1000 years?
I mean you can believe it, but not be disapointet if it comes different.

 

[Locutus]

I am a Preterist, by definition, but I have heard Preterists say things that I don't believe.

I want to say upfront that I do see scriptures that cause problems with my eschatology. 2 Thessalonians 2, for example, seems to point to a later date than I feel most scripture points to. I readily admit this to be a scripture that I would like to understand more clearly.

All of us would TL. That said, there is a lot of speculation about what Paul is addressing - my own opinion is that his readers of the time would understand the cryptic references in his letter while we today do not have the context to what he may have said in person:

2 Th 2:5 (Young's) Do ye not remember that, being yet with you, these things I said to you?

I think that all the references to the "secret of the lawlessness" which was already working places the spoken of scenario in the life time of the Thessalonians.

2 Th 2:7 for the secret of the lawlessness doth already work, only he who is keeping down now will hinder -- till he may be out of the way,

 

[zone]

I am a Preterist, by definition, but I have heard Preterists say things that I don't believe.

I want to say upfront that I do see scriptures that cause problems with my eschatology. 2 Thessalonians 2, for example, seems to point to a later date than I feel most scripture points to. I readily admit this to be a scripture that I would like to understand more clearly.

I believe that Jesus and the Apostles proclaimed a quicker fulfillment than most Christians believe in today.

I believe that the greatest abomination in earth history was when God's Chosen turned over Immanuel (God with us) over to the Romans to be hung on a tree and saying we have no King but Caesar.

The Abomination that causes desolation.

I would also like to point out that many say that there is only one mass resurrection, but Matt 27:52-53 says, "[FONT="][FONT=Arial][B]52 [/B][/FONT]The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. [/FONT]I believe that this is referred to in Ezekiel 37. If Paul is referring to a resurrection that had not occurred (at the time that he wrote 2 Thessalonians), which he seems to be, then that would be two separate resurrections.

I do not hold a view of the 1,000 year reign. I have theories, but nothing that I hold to strongly enough to proclaim.

I think that one has to reach to claim that Jesus was referring to another generation than the one He was speaking to.

I find it unacceptable to place 2,000 years between the 69th and the 70th week of Daniel 9.

I believe that Revelation means "soon", "quickly", and "there will be delay no longer".

I would love to discuss these things with people who have actually studied the bible, but most really haven't studied and if they are well studied they either flee or refuse to have a civil, back and forth discussion.

PS I had never heard the term "Preterist" before I was labeled as one on CC.
PPS I am not calling Jesus the Abomination, but Caiaphas/the Jews standing before Pilate (which was forbidden under the Law) and this event did, by the way, put an end to the sacrifice-along with the destruction of the Temple.

bump.........

 

[abcdef]

bump.........

1 Cor 15:23-28,

There are only 2 resurrections.

The first was Jesus, with the 144000, and the multitude that no man could number. Eph 4:8.

The 2nd is at His coming for the Pentecost Kingdom.

Then comes the end, (of the resurrections, implied).

Death is destroyed, Rev 20:14-15

The finished kingdom is delivered up to God.

--

All events that take place on planet earth, must take place place between the 1st and 2nd resurrection.

That would be the trib., the mill, trumpets, etc.

 

[Timeline]

2 Timothy 1:8-11
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, 10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.

 

[Locutus]

2 Timothy 1:8-11
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, 10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.

TL - I see you quoted the NASB - have you tried using Young's Literal for the new testament?

I would recommend it especially in regards to time statements that are often not translated correctly in many versions.

 

[MattTooFor]

I am a Preterist, by definition, but I have heard Preterists say things that I don't believe.

I want to say upfront that I do see scriptures that cause problems with my eschatology.

I guess a couple of opening questions I would have for preterists are...

...when the disciples in the Olivet Discourse, ask Jesus "what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age"...why would anyone leap to a conclusion that all the comments from Jesus that followed those questions, refer to events that already happened?

In the Jewish thinking there are TWO ages -- the age of man and the endless age of God.

Why would anyone think the "end of the age" (of man) has already occurred?

And again --when the disciples asked "what will be the sign of Your coming?" WHY would anyone think that all the events which Jesus described in answering the question...was describing events that have already occurred?? Jesus has not returned...thus one could at least preliminarily conclude, all these attendant events He is describing (attendant to His second coming) would be events YET IN THE FUTURE...because Jesus' return is yet in the future.

Just a couple of opening observations.

I have never understood what is the original impulse behind preterism. It makes no sense in the context of the disciples' questions.

 

[Locutus]

In the Jewish thinking there are TWO ages -- the age of man and the endless age of God.

Why would anyone think the "end of the age" (of man) has already occurred?

I believe the two ages the Jews believed in were the age of Moses and the age of Messiah.

Paul lived in "this age", the age of Moses and the rulers of the Mosaic age:

1 Co 2:7 (Young's)but we speak the hidden wisdom of God in a secret, that God foreordained before the ages to our glory,

1 Co 2:8 which no one of the rulers of this age did know, for if they had known, the Lord of the glory they would not have crucified;

But Paul also stated that the end of "this age" he lived in was coming to an end:

1 Co 10:11 And all these things as types did happen to those persons, and they were written for our admonition, to whom the end of the ages did come.


Mat 24:14 and this good news of the reign shall be proclaimed in all the world, for a testimony to all the nations; and then shall the end arrive

The gospel had been preached "in all the world" during Paul's ministry:

Col 1:23 if also ye remain in the faith, being founded and settled, and not moved away from the hope of the good news, which ye heard, which was preached in all the creation that is under the heaven, of which I became -- I Paul -- a ministrant..

Rom 10:18 but I say, Did they not hear? yes, indeed -- 'to all the earth their voice went forth, and to the ends of the habitable world their sayings.'

When the old temple was destroyed the age of Moses came to a close, therefore we are in the age of Messiah.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello John,

Neither the 144,000 nor the great multitude which no man can count, have come into being yet. These two groups will be here on the earth during that last seven years. The multitude which no man can count, are those who come out of the great tribulation, which has not yet begun and is therefore yet future.

"Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Jesus described the great tribulation as taking place from the setting up of the abomination and lasting 3 1/2 years leading up to his return to the earth. That said, the great tribulation has not begun yet and therefore, neither the 144,000 nor the great multitude have been resurrected.

Then comes the end, (of the resurrections, implied).

Death is destroyed, Rev 20:14-15

Death is not destroyed until after the thousand year reign of Christ and during the great white throne judgment, which from right now is at least over a thousand and seven years away. We would have had to first seen the wrath of God, the return of Jesus to the earth, his millennial kingdom and then the great white throne judgment, before death is thrown into the lake of fire. We haven't gone through any of those events yet.

 

[Locutus]

I'd have to disagree that the 144k are yet to come:

They are according to the scripture:

Rev 7:4 (Young's) And I heard the number of those sealed, (144 thousands were sealed out of all the tribes of the sons of Israel):

Rev 14:4 these are they who with women were not defiled, for they are virgin; these are they who are following the Lamb whithersoever he may go; these were bought from among men -- a first-fruit to God and to the Lamb

John says they are first fruit to God and the Lamb - this would place them among the first Jewish Christians to whom James writes his letter:

James 1:1 (Young's) James, of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ a servant, to the Twelve Tribes who are in the dispersion: Hail!

James 1:18 having counselled, He did beget us with a word of truth, for our being a certain first-fruit of His creatures.

 

[DiscipleDave]

I included the answer in the same post. Jesus is the One opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets, followed by the bowl judgments. Therefore, Jesus is responsible for the resulting fatalities of the seals, which would include them as being apart of God's wrath. this understanding is arrived at by deduction and not by a specific scripture which states it.

It is written:

Gal_6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Is that also ONLY going to take place during the 7 year Tribulation Period? You ASSUME that if any kind of wrath that comes from God, it must only come during the time of the 7 year Tribulation Period. This is not accurate, there are many example of His Wrath upon the Earth, Sodom and Gomorrah. Flooding of the Earth. And even the verse i stated above plainly teach if you sow to the flesh of the flesh you SHALL reap corruption, Many would think this is WRATH of God as well, would they not. They sow to the flesh, and GOD see to it that His Word is TRUTH, and they get corruption in the flesh. What then? That wrath is reserved for the 7 year Tribulation Period? You believe the 7 seals are during the 7 year Tribulation Period, and you base that belief on the premise that because they are His Wrath, that it MUST be during the 7 year Wrath of God period. This premise is not in line with Scriptures. Because Scriptures teaches His wrath all over the place, NOT ONLY during the 7 year Tribulation Period. And yes Jesus opens up the Seals, And where does He open the seals from? HEAVEN. And where is Jesus right now? In Heaven. There is nothing in all of Scriptures which teach that the 7 seals are opened during the 7 year Tribulation Period. There is nothing in Scriptures that teach that some of the seals have not already been opened IN HEAVEN.

The only reason that you put seals 1 thru 5 as taking place prior to the the beginning of the seven years, is because of the announcement at the opening of the 6th seal which says "the great day of their wrath has come." But because you don't understand that the words "has come" also includes everything that happens previous to the opening of the 6th seal, you exclude them.

i exclude them, because you do not understand what the words "DAY of" Which most certainly is referring to a specific DAY, NOT anything previous to that DAY as you are suggesting.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are three sets of seven judgments of God's wrath and are not meant to be separated. All three sets of plagues will all take place within that seven year period, with the 1st seal initiating God's wrath.

And if you can show Scriptures that back up that belief, i am ready to see them. If there is one verse that suggests all seven seals, all seven trumpets, all seven vials are during the 7 year Tribulation Period, then i am all ears, but if you can, then you are only assuming these things, is that not correct?

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

What i am asking for, is not an, analysis of what is in the diagram, but asking for Scriptures that proves something in the diagram is not TRUE.

[/FONT][/COLOR]End-time events require comparing and cross-referencing all of the related scriptures in order to come to a proper conclusion. You're not going to find any scriptures that say "here it is, it happens right here!"

Much (not all) of the diagram was told to me by God in conversation. What i am asking is Can anyone show any Scriptures which PROVES that something in the diagram is not correct. i am positive thousands of people will disagree with things in the diagram, based on their own interpretation, their own studies, their own thinking. What i am asking, please try to understand this, is NOT your opinions, NOT what you THINK something should be or should not be, i want to see Scriptures.
NOTE: i will not change one iota in the diagram, based on someones opinions, thoughts, interpretations, or what have you. You showed me Scriptures earlier, that allowed me to correct the diagram. It will ONLY be Scriptures that i do so. So all this stuff you are saying that is based on your opinions, your own thoughts, your own interpretations, is moot to the question i am asking. i am seriously not trying to be rude, although it may very much look like that. But it is not, i have been very adamant in asking the question that i need to see Scriptures that prove something in the diagram to be incorrect. This is the ONLY thing that will make me change the diagram.
i will not change the diagram to line up with what you or anyone else believes. i will only change the diagram to line up with SCRIPTURES. That is why i have been saying over and over again, this very thing. SCRIPTURES, NOT your opinions, your beliefs.

i am not saying your beliefs are wrong, nor are we debating about any of that. i am asking here, about the diagram. if you think something is wrong, then show the Scriptures which prove it to be wrong, and i will change it. However, you can write till your blue in the face and write a thousand posts concerning what you believe, why you believe, how you came up with it, and it is MOOT. i am not asking for what YOU believe, why you believe it, or how you came up with it. i am asking for Scriptures that proves something in the diagram is wrong. Please try to do that. Thanks.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

Listen. The Great Tribulation of Mat 24:21 was indeed in 66-70 AD and is over!! I'm nearly finished reading "War" by Josephus and unless you've read it, you really have no business commenting about the Great Tribulation because absolutely EVERYTHING that Jesus foretells in Mat 24 happened in 66-70 AD. Indeed, it was the Great Tribulation and Great Wrath of God against that wickedest of generations.

But the resurrection is yet future to us. Yes, some awoke with Christ some ~40 years before the Great Tribulation and they walked around the city. Either these were first fruits with Christ or they died again having been close enough in their graves for the power of His resurrection to awaken them. Either way, the main resurrection is yet future and is in conjunction with the last day.

A future "tribulation" is coming. This is the final wrath tribulation hinted at in Mat 24:28. This tribulation is where the wicked (not righteous!!!) are taken as discussed in Mat 24:40-41. This Tribulation is not for us. We are left behind to be gathered. There simply is no rapture to heaven to avoid anything. This doctrine is false and quite unnecessary. We are not appointed to this wrath.

You say the Great tribulation of Mat 24:21 happened in 66-70 AD and yet you say Mat 24:28 is the final wrath that is yet to come.

Know you not that all verses 4-51 in the chapter is an answer to what the Disciples asked Him?

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Verses 4-51 is an ANSWER to their question that they asked Him. They asked Him what shall be the sign of thy coming (Rapture) and the end of the world. To this question He gave an answer in verses 4-51. But it seems you say that verse 21 is neither about His Coming (Rapture) nor about the end of the world? But about a time around 66-70 AD. Why would Jesus answer their question concerning His coming, and the end of the world with an answer concerning the time around 66-70 AD? He wouldn't and He didn't. His answer to His Disciple concerning the Question about His Return and the end of the world is every verse 4 through 51, and verse 21 is no exception to the answer that He gave.

Disciples "Jesus what will be the sign of thy coming, and the end of the world"
Jesus responds with something that is going to happen in 70 AD. illogical. People don't listen to this stuff. verses 4-51 is an answer to the Question that the Disciples asked Jesus about. To say one verse is about a time period around 66-70 AD Which answers neither of the questions presented to Jesus, is illogical, and a great example of taking out of context. The whole context of the chapter is in answering the Disciples question as to the sign of His Coming, and the end. Saying one verse out of that answer He gave is referring to a time around 66-70AD is most certainly taking it out of context.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

Originally Posted by DiscipleDave

Attachment 165314

If anyone can show any Scriptures which proves anything here to be incorrect, i welcome the attempt.
Please keep personal views, interpretations, and the such out of it. Just show me Scriptures which proves this diagram to be incorrect. Thanks

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

Well, for one thing...where does Jesus' statement "no one knows the day or the hour" fit into this chart? Everything I'm seeing on this chart would indicate people WOULD know the very day. It would be on exactly the 1260th day...according to your chart. And THAT would be counter-biblical.

Really, everything you see in this chart would indicate people would know the very day? Please reveal to me that day and hour according to the Chart?

What? You can't. Why? Because the chart does NOT reveal no day nor hour when He will return as you are suggesting. Neither have i done such a thing in the diagram.

Have you found anything in the diagram that is incorrect according to Scriptures, or is this the only thing you are going to reply about?

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

I'd have to disagree that the 144k are yet to come:

They are according to the scripture:

Rev 7:4 (Young's) And I heard the number of those sealed, (144 thousands were sealed out of all the tribes of the sons of Israel):

Rev 14:4 these are they who with women were not defiled, for they are virgin; these are they who are following the Lamb whithersoever he may go; these were bought from among men -- a first-fruit to God and to the Lamb

John says they are first fruit to God and the Lamb - this would place them among the first Jewish Christians to whom James writes his letter:

James 1:1 (Young's) James, of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ a servant, to the Twelve Tribes who are in the dispersion: Hail!

James 1:18 having counselled, He did beget us with a word of truth, for our being a certain first-fruit of His creatures.

What people do not understand today, is that the 12 tribes of Israel is still in effect today. Abraham was told that his seed would be as the sand on a seashore. Just because you do not know your lineage, does not mean God does not know to which Tribe you belong to according to your lineage. The New City Jerusalem that comes down from Heaven will have twelve floors Each floor belonging to one the twelve Tribes of Abraham. They are for US.
As i said before, you and i may not know which Tribe our lineage is, But God knows which Tribe we belong to. The 144,000 that are sealed 3 1/2 years prior to the 1,000 year millennium, Are 12,000 chosen from each Tribe of the Last Day Generation.

If you traced back your lineage to over 4,000 years ago, and it is through one of the twelve Tribes of Israel, than that is the Tribe you belong to, whether you know which one it is or not. So then when God does start sealing 12,000 from each Tribe, it may very well be one of your children.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[Timeline]

I guess a couple of opening questions I would have for preterists are...

...when the disciples in the Olivet Discourse, ask Jesus "what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age"...why would anyone leap to a conclusion that all the comments from Jesus that followed those questions, refer to events that already happened?

In the Jewish thinking there are TWO ages -- the age of man and the endless age of God.

Why would anyone think the "end of the age" (of man) has already occurred?

And again --when the disciples asked "what will be the sign of Your coming?" WHY would anyone think that all the events which Jesus described in answering the question...was describing events that have already occurred?? Jesus has not returned...thus one could at least preliminarily conclude, all these attendant events He is describing (attendant to His second coming) would be events YET IN THE FUTURE...because Jesus' return is yet in the future.

Just a couple of opening observations.

I have never understood what is the original impulse behind preterism. It makes no sense in the context of the disciples' questions.

I don't believe that they had all already happened at the time that Jesus spoke the words of Matt 24. They may have happened by the time that Matthew was written or shortly thereafter.

I believe that Jesus is answering the question that was asked. I do not believe that the context allows this to be discussing the End of the World (in terms that we tend to think of it).

I became a "preterist" because that is where the Bible guides us. Granted most of the Bible was written before the end of the Israelite/Jewish Age, but I think you will have a hard time denying that the writer's of the New Testament are expecting something to happen immediately. Some believe that they were just wrong; Others believe that they were just trying to keep the urgency of turning to Jesus in the minds of the readers. I believe it is because they actually believed in immediate fulfillment - and rightfully so. I believe that most of the problems revolve around misreading scripture and applying misconceptions to prophecies.

I did not read any preterist material before being accused of being one. I grew up attending Church. I believed a lot of the futurist teachings until I started reading the Bible myself.

 

[Timeline]

TL - I see you quoted the NASB - have you tried using Young's Literal for the new testament?

I would recommend it especially in regards to time statements that are often not translated correctly in many versions.

I will take a look at Young's - I do prefer NASB, but I know it's not perfect.

 

[tanakh]

The Tribulation is not a Punishment from God for believers but a time of testing. The test being whether we are faithful to the end or throw in our lot with the Antichrist and Babylon The OT has a number of stories that are shadows and testings that point to the Great tribulation and/or the seven trumpets the Rapture and the return of Christ. I dont have time to go into this in detail now but will later . My position on the Rapture is that it happens at the seventh and last Trumpet in Revelation.