ask Word of Faith! WOF

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Ariel82

Guest
Hi welcome sister! i agree with you whole heatedly and it is sad that some have taken the ideas of WOF way out of context. but its not a focus on one aspect, i assure you, what in general have you seen wrong though?

please go back and see my response to you, i did not disagree with your correction, just you method.
Whole heatedly? Interesting telling typo, but I will tell you what I have heard of word of faith so far:

It teaches name it, and claim it doctrine.

It teaches people to honor lusts of their flesh instead of put it to death.

It makes prayer into a magic wand and God into a genie in a bottle of human desires....

So what do you really teach and believe?
 
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Ariel82

Guest
True faith is taking God at his word. The scriptures tell us that the Lord will supply all of our needs. Faith in that is what we need to develop.
Our needs and not our wants, but if are wants are in line with his will now there's a double blessing.
Imo only through trail and perseverance does our faith grow and that measure is given by God.
I serve a God of the impossible and I know this. I've seen his handy work performed immediately, and over time.
We are just vessels nothing more he is the giver of all good things and life it's self.
One of the worst things a Christian can do is get confused on who's the servant and who's the master.
Like this life...we don't really need it, but we live it for God's glory. If He was to call us home right now, how many of us would be ready to go with Him?
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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whats up, i'm part of a WOF church, actully Rhema one of the biggest! and i go to there bible college and plan to minister ast a WOF pastor one day. i thought it would be nice to answer and questions you might have, confirm WOF teaching to you, and clear up any misconceptions might be out there,
I believed in spiritual gifts. I grew up Pentecostal.

I'd occasionally see one of the well-known WOF preachers on TV as a teenager. I couldn't stand to watch more than a few minutes of them. One of them seemed angry or something, and I found his personality abrasive. But what bothered me more was how often in a short period of time, I'd hear the preacher go on about how a verse didn't really mean what it said. There were preachers preaching against saying 'if it be thy will.'

I got a little older and had a look at one of Kenneth Hagin, Sr.'s booklets. In it, he basically argued that God doesn't do 'bad' stuff to people. He said someone he knew said there was a certain Hebrew grammatical feature that could be translated to either mean 'cause' or 'allow', and it seemed like he just used that as an excuse to take all those Old Testament passages in the Old Testament where God does some things that are 'bad' or unpleasant from the perspective of the individuals on the receiving end of it, and said God allowed it. It seems like, in Hagin's belief system, or at least in the belief system of any rhema grads, the Devil did all the unpleasant stuff.

A problem with this is that it doesn't seem like Kenneth Hagin, Sr. took the time to go see if all the cases in the Old Testament of when God did these things to see if that feature of Hebrew grammar was used, or to see if the argument made sense. If God caused the Egyptians to drown by the breath of his nostrils, does it make sense to say he didn't do it because he 'allowed' the breath of his nostrils to breath the water on them, instead of 'causing' it to happen. That would be a rather foolish argument.

No, God is responsible for drowning the Egyptians in the Red Sea. He took credit for it. Israel praised Him for it. We should not give the glory of God to the Devil. I'm not sure if Kenneth Hagin ever said the Devil did that specific thing, but it sure seems in line with the WOF way of thinking.

Kenneth Copeland gave a teaching about the idea that Adam gave up the rights and power over the earth when he fell. But it was a theory, not something that could be proven from the Bible, parts of it at least. It seems like this idea is core to some of WOF teachings about the power of the Devil and the believer's authority. But the Bible says that the earth is the LORD's and the glory thereof.

There are Pentecostals who will say that God never causes sickness, and probably have been since the beginning of the movement, since there were probably people in the 'faith cure' movement that went that far. But Pentecostals tend to read the Bible, not just a hundred or two hundred or so verses on faith and prosperity. So it seems like most don't go that far. The Bible does show God is responsible for some illness.

Deuteronomy 7:15 says,
And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all them that hate thee.

That's a great verse about health, right? But according to the verse, who put sicknesses upon the Egyptians? That destroys the argument of some of the WOFers that would try to give the Devil glory for some of the judgments of God.

Something that has bothered me over time about the WOF movement is that there have been so many cases of teaching doctrines that contradict specific verses, like teaching against praying, 'if it be Thy will' when Christ prayed that and the Lord's prayer says 'Thy will be done.' Preaching against that seemed common in the 1980's. That's one of the beefs I have with the 'hypergrace' people, pushing their philosophy to such an extreme it violates specific scriptures.

With WOFers, it seems like some of their preachers like shock value. So they try to preach a passage in a way that seems new, extreme, and innovative, and it seems to push the doctrine off in weird directions. Other preachers imitate the famous preachers. It seems like some of the preachers have several verses they camp on, and focus on faith, healing, and prosperity, ignoring a lot of important Biblical teaching.

I had a friend who used to quote WOF preachers a lot, and had one of those narrow WOF mindsets. I sat around with him till late at night or the wee hours of the morning a few times talking Bible with him and asking questions that poked holes in his belief system. Years later, he told me how thankful he was for that, and how it really helped him get out of that mindset.

I did know a missionary who went to Rhema, and if you heard him preach, you wouldn't know it, because he sounded like a 'normal preacher' and would preach on a variety of topics, not just a handfull of verses on faith, healing, and prosperity. That did broaden my perspective a bit and let me know that not all people with a WOF background were narrow in their view.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
Not every person with cancer, dies. Nor does EVERY cancer person who has (or hasn't) been prayed for, die.. Some do, some don't and only God knows why.. But don't feel guilty for not praying for them. If it's God's will for them to die, then all the prayers in the world, for them to survive, won't matter.
And if you believe the Bible, DEATH of this body is but the beginning of eternity with Christ.

It puzzles me why people seem to forget God's promises so easily,
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Some people might have gotten the idea about the Hebrew with the "cause" and "allow" from this scholar from the 1800's. This quote is in his book on the scriptures regarding the Hebrew.

"Young's Analytical Concordance - Hints and helps for Bible Interpretations - 70 (b) - Active verbs frequently express permission - not a causative sense."

Of course there will be other "scholars" that say the complete opposite - so everyone needs to rely on the Holy Spirit for interpreting the scriptures to reveal the work of Christ to us. It is not going to come from our own natural minds.

The faith that you have - have it before God and be content to allow others to have their own too. People are allowed to have a different view on some subjects that are "non-essential" without the ripping them apart because they believe something different then what we do.
 
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Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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Back in 1998, when I first got Rheumatoid Arthritis, I was in extreme pain and getting deformities. Two old and close friends, who had been Pentecostal, told me that if I wasn't healed, I didn't have enough faith. So they prayed for me, and when I was not healed, they told me I was somehow blocking the will of God.

That started one of the worst times in my life. I love Jesus with all my heart, soul, body and mind, but instead of the comfort and joy of the Lord, I had a horrible burden I could not bear with RA, and judgement and condemnation by two people thoroughly immersed in this evil heresy. I did not read my Bible or pray for 2 years, I was so depressed from the pain, and feeling totally abandoned by God.

Then, the one woman, who was an evangelist, and ordained by Kenneth Copeland and had a huge church on Vancouver Island, got breast cancer. She refuses chemo and radiation. But her whole church claimed healing according to the tenets of the Word Faith movement. She spent all her time in praying, and "praying" the Word over herself. The doctors begged her to take treatment, but she told them she was healed.

Ten months later, she died, after the cancer metastasized, and drove her insane when it entered her brain. Very sad to lose a friend, who might not have had to die, had she not been in this terrible heretical cult.

The second friend started having prostate problems, which he was prayed for. He was not healed, and he was in such pain he finally got someone to drive him to the ER, where he was immediately taken for surgery. He has not had another problem, probably 15 years later, although he does have to do regular check ups. That sort of turned him away from WF, although he remains a Pentecostal.

So there you have it - Word Faith doctrine, discouraging me, killing one friend, and another realizing how wrong it is.

I have an excellent pamphlet written by one of the top Greek scholars in the world, Gordan Fee, who is a Pentecostal, who remains committed to divine healing, but never on command. He is of course, totally against the prosperity gospel. The pamphlet goes through both Prosperity and Word of Faith healing, and takes them apart. Healing is NOT included in the atonement, a very wrong reading of Isaiah 53. Prosperity is just wrong, although God does provide for our needs.

I will say, that despite the on-going health issues, that God has always provided for my husband and I and our children in marvelous ways. I praise him for that! But, I have never claimed it, just thanked God for his daily provision.

As far as healing, I know people are healed. But I was not, and I grew more from having RA, than in the 20 years of my Christian walk when I was healthy.

"More than that, we rejoice in our suffering, knowing that suffering produces endurance, endurance produces character and character produces hope. And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured out by the Holy Spirit who has been given to us." Romans 5:3-5

That is my life verse, and it has shown me that character, which is eternal, is so much more important than physical healing. I would love to be healed, but if I never am, I will rejoice in the blessings God has given me, the most important of which is knowing Christ.

Sorry to all of you who have heard this story over and over. If you want to actually discuss the false doctrine, and why the Word of Faith is wrong, deceiving, and not Biblical I would be happy to argue Scripture. I don't see that happening at all in this thread, so I won't get into it, unless someone wants to know the truth about what the Bible actually says.
 
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CeileDe

Guest
Let's not get into that straw man argument. Just because something isn't in the bible doesn't mean that we condemn it. Too many people throw out random stuff such as... oh cars, computers, fish tanks, etc aren't in the bible. These statements are not applicable to any argument.

When it comes to spiritual understanding and practice in the order that God gives, then yes, it must line up with the scriptures. Also, before someone states this, a terrible argument is that this will put God in a box. Why? God already tells us what He will and will not do in terms of biblical practice and principle.

The original intent behind WoF may have been scriptural, but it has progressed rather sadly into something that is not biblical. When the WoF movement finally denounces these practices and has their churches return to the biblical intent and context of what the Lord has said in His word, then we will stop standing against it.
Sure they are when someone starts stating that something isn't in scripture so therefore it isn't relevant or not Godly. Just because it doesn't fit into your mold of what is relevant or not doesn't mean it isn't.
 

Desertsrose

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2016
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My husband and I were saved in a Baptist church, but there were 2 couples there whom we love very much. They were into the word of faith doctrines. We knew nothing. We were just good 'ol heathens that just got saved so what did we know?

One couple took us under their wing to show us the way to believe.
When I didn't get the gift of speaking in tongues, I was pressured to just blurt out whatever. I felt so bad and felt like I didn't have real faith and like there was something I just wasn't doing right.....something was wrong with me.

Later at another charismatic church, they did the same thing, saying to just blurt it out. They believe that you must speak in tongues or you don't have the Holy Spirit. some of them go so far as to say you're not even saved.

I had a gall bladder attack and had to have my gall bladder removed the month after being saved. Within 3 months I had fibromyalgia. At first the Doctors thought it was lupus. I was told not to confess I was sick and to claim my healing. That was 35 years ago and the fibromyalgia is still with me.

I've been a part of 5 different charismatic churches in the past, but no more. They don't teach the bible accurately.

They say things like - if God tells you to give $500 then give $1000. One pastor we saw in a home improvement store. We were new to the church and we were chatting with him. He told us during this conversation how he gets people to give more and more money to the church. I couldn't believe he was telling us this, but he said they'll paint a wall and ask people to give more so they can do more improvements to the building. He'll carpet one of the rooms so people will give more and more.

If we wanted things we were told to claim (not ask for) them and to tithe more. So we were to demand things from God.

We were taught that we're the head and not the tail. We were taught that nothing negative can happen and if it does, its the devil and tell him where to go.

They also would say to bind things and loose things. It was always bind the devil and loose money into my pocket.

Sin is never mentioned and everything is Satan's fault.

Quite a few years ago, we even got involved in the crazy laughter thing at the last church we were part of.

I could go on, but I'll just say that we've dusted our feet from the false doctrines they teach.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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whats up, i'm part of a WOF church, actully Rhema one of the biggest! and i go to there bible college and plan to minister ast a WOF pastor one day. i thought it would be nice to answer and questions you might have, confirm WOF teaching to you, and clear up any misconceptions might be out there,
Withdraw yourself from that movement.. It is false..

1 Timothy 6:KJV
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
 
Jan 15, 2011
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Sure they are when someone starts stating that something isn't in scripture so therefore it isn't relevant or not Godly. Just because it doesn't fit into your mold of what is relevant or not doesn't mean it isn't.
Once again, the context is through spiritual enterprise, the way we worship God. That is the focus of our discussion, and for those things, if it doesn't line up with scripture, we throw it out. We're not talking about tangible items that have no bearing on our spiritual walk unless we make an idol of them.

So no, stating that a computer isn't in scripture doesn't fall under the same category of analyzing our worship of God to see if it lines up with His word.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,165
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Desertsrose,

Not all Charismatic churches are into WOF. A lot of them are turned off my some of the same things. The same is true with Pentecostals, though you'd probably find more Pentecostals that are more critical of WOF than among independent Charismatic churches in the US.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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I could go on, but I'll just say that we've dusted our feet from the false doctrines they teach.
My only observation is you went to 5 different charismatic churches and obviously were happy
with them enough to leave one and join the other.

What was it about the fellowships you liked? What were there strengths?

I love the worship, seeing people moved and touched by the Holy Spirit.
It is what we do with this that makes the real difference.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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Back in 1998, when I first got Rheumatoid Arthritis, I was in extreme pain and getting deformities. Two old and close friends, who had been Pentecostal, told me that if I wasn't healed, I didn't have enough faith. So they prayed for me, and when I was not healed, they told me I was somehow blocking the will of God.

That started one of the worst times in my life. I love Jesus with all my heart, soul, body and mind, but instead of the comfort and joy of the Lord, I had a horrible burden I could not bear with RA, and judgement and condemnation by two people thoroughly immersed in this evil heresy. I did not read my Bible or pray for 2 years, I was so depressed from the pain, and feeling totally abandoned by God.

Then, the one woman, who was an evangelist, and ordained by Kenneth Copeland and had a huge church on Vancouver Island, got breast cancer. She refuses chemo and radiation. But her whole church claimed healing according to the tenets of the Word Faith movement. She spent all her time in praying, and "praying" the Word over herself. The doctors begged her to take treatment, but she told them she was healed.

Ten months later, she died, after the cancer metastasized, and drove her insane when it entered her brain. Very sad to lose a friend, who might not have had to die, had she not been in this terrible heretical cult.

The second friend started having prostate problems, which he was prayed for. He was not healed, and he was in such pain he finally got someone to drive him to the ER, where he was immediately taken for surgery. He has not had another problem, probably 15 years later, although he does have to do regular check ups. That sort of turned him away from WF, although he remains a Pentecostal.

So there you have it - Word Faith doctrine, discouraging me, killing one friend, and another realizing how wrong it is.

I have an excellent pamphlet written by one of the top Greek scholars in the world, Gordan Fee, who is a Pentecostal, who remains committed to divine healing, but never on command. He is of course, totally against the prosperity gospel. The pamphlet goes through both Prosperity and Word of Faith healing, and takes them apart. Healing is NOT included in the atonement, a very wrong reading of Isaiah 53. Prosperity is just wrong, although God does provide for our needs.

I will say, that despite the on-going health issues, that God has always provided for my husband and I and our children in marvelous ways. I praise him for that! But, I have never claimed it, just thanked God for his daily provision.

As far as healing, I know people are healed. But I was not, and I grew more from having RA, than in the 20 years of my Christian walk when I was healthy.

"More than that, we rejoice in our suffering, knowing that suffering produces endurance, endurance produces character and character produces hope. And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured out by the Holy Spirit who has been given to us." Romans 5:3-5

That is my life verse, and it has shown me that character, which is eternal, is so much more important than physical healing. I would love to be healed, but if I never am, I will rejoice in the blessings God has given me, the most important of which is knowing Christ.

Sorry to all of you who have heard this story over and over. If you want to actually discuss the false doctrine, and why the Word of Faith is wrong, deceiving, and not Biblical I would be happy to argue Scripture. I don't see that happening at all in this thread, so I won't get into it, unless someone wants to know the truth about what the Bible actually says.
Its strange to give "like" to such post, but I must say I agree.

We should pray for healing, but when we do not see it, we must take treatment.

We are not healed when the problem still exist! Stop autosuggesting to yourself. When God heals, its immediate and complete, no "acts of faith - not taking pills, breaking glasses", no "confessing I am healed" when doctors still see the problem.

WoF guys, please read the gospel and acts, how the healing happened. And stop judging fellow Christians about their faith.
 
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LaurenTM

Guest
Sure they are when someone starts stating that something isn't in scripture so therefore it isn't relevant or not Godly. Just because it doesn't fit into your mold of what is relevant or not doesn't mean it isn't.



whether or not you have me on ignore does not matter

the fact I disagree with you and for THAT reason you put me on ignore says it all

the no cars in scripture, nor internet, nor babies on life support, is nothing but a diversion to neglecting to ackowledge that the word of God is given for instruction for a reason

so, we have gangs of believers on a high wire act with no net and then they don't know what hit them when they fall off

and I'm not done with what you did yesterday...most of us are so up to here with the name calling and nastiness and I am going to show what you did...how you responded out of anger and malice with nothing to do with what I actually posted

and by the way? that is also typical of those who can't back up what they say with the Bible
 
Feb 7, 2015
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Its strange to give "like" to such post, but I must say I agree.

We should pray for healing, but when we do not see it, we must take treatment.

We are not healed when the problem still exist! Stop autosuggesting to yourself. When God heals, its immediate and complete, no "acts of faith - not taking pills, breaking glasses", no "confessing I am healed" when doctors still see the problem.

WoF guys, please read the gospel and acts, how the healing happened. And stop judging fellow Christians about their faith.
We might want to be a little careful in stating those kinds of "facts"... when we have the clear example of Mark 8: 22-26 placed in the Bible for us to read. That is the case where Jesus had to do a second "healing" because the man's sight was only partially restored on the first pass.
 
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LaurenTM

Guest
Its strange to give "like" to such post, but I must say I agree.

We should pray for healing, but when we do not see it, we must take treatment.

We are not healed when the problem still exist! Stop autosuggesting to yourself. When God heals, its immediate and complete, no "acts of faith - not taking pills, breaking glasses", no "confessing I am healed" when doctors still see the problem.

WoF guys, please read the gospel and acts, how the healing happened. And stop judging fellow Christians about their faith.

just so!

I will just make mention again that I literally saw a woman die because she refused cancer treatment...she could have lived and continued in this life...I believe she went to be with the Lord (as they say)...but she left behind her husband and 3 little children and I do not think that was God's will

she said it would make God angry if she took treatment because that would mean she had no faith! an extreme story you say? NO...not at all ... typical...people have died, had their lives ruined and left the church because of this movement...and it is most certainly still around

people really do not know what God's will is and that it begins and ends with His WORD...Jesus IS the Word...and we have the instructions in the Bible

WOF'es skirt the issue...just deflect the unanswered demands and word visulizations...and go on like it did not happen

within one year, that husband, a pastor actually who did not have the extreme views of head pastor and his wife, re-married...he is still married and now pastoring his own church with his wife. I knew him and he is a kind and reasonable man and his wife, now married over 20 years, is a wonderful woman and a great mother to the children

this, is what is real...I have many more true stories I could relate...would it matter? honestly, I think not to those who want to see things their way

wake up!
 
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LaurenTM

Guest
We might want to be a little careful in stating those kinds of "facts"... when we have the clear example of Mark 8: 22-26 placed in the Bible for us to read. That is the case where Jesus had to do a second "healing" because the man's sight was only partially restored on the first pass.



I agree with this and this brings up a good point!

sometimes in this life, healing is partial or done over time...either way, I firmly believe God's will is done IF we submit to Him and look to Him

being bold in prayer, does not mean loosing sight of just Who God is

I'm pretty sure you know that

we can have all kinds of wonderful moments with God, but He is still omnipotent and knows what is best and in this life we do not, nor are we even allowed, to have all the answers

I believe that God gave us what we need to know, enough to search Him out and stand on, and enough to understand where Truth is and can be found
 
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LaurenTM

Guest
Some people might have gotten the idea about the Hebrew with the "cause" and "allow" from this scholar from the 1800's. This quote is in his book on the scriptures regarding the Hebrew.

"Young's Analytical Concordance - Hints and helps for Bible Interpretations - 70 (b) - Active verbs frequently express permission - not a causative sense."

Of course there will be other "scholars" that say the complete opposite - so everyone needs to rely on the Holy Spirit for interpreting the scriptures to reveal the work of Christ to us. It is not going to come from our own natural minds.

The faith that you have - have it before God and be content to allow others to have their own too. People are allowed to have a different view on some subjects that are "non-essential" without the ripping them apart because they believe something different then what we do.


misplaced faith is a scary thing

we have teachers for a reason

the Bible is not a free for all interpret any way you want

I think we would be very neglectful if we did not try to correct error...in fact, we are TOLD to do so

false peace is not peace at all and that is not what is required of us...that is a false message


The faith that you have - have it before God and be content to allow others to have their own too. People are allowed to have a different view on some subjects that are "non-essential" without the ripping them apart because they believe something different then what we d
that is so and your relationship with God is between Him and as much as you allow truth to lead...which can be painful

however, WOF does not allow for people to have their view OR faith...it's often telling people that their faith is not enough, not good enough and God does not answer them because of that

well, that simply pushes people away from God
 
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LaurenTM

Guest
Back in 1998, when I first got Rheumatoid Arthritis, I was in extreme pain and getting deformities. Two old and close friends, who had been Pentecostal, told me that if I wasn't healed, I didn't have enough faith. So they prayed for me, and when I was not healed, they told me I was somehow blocking the will of God.

That started one of the worst times in my life. I love Jesus with all my heart, soul, body and mind, but instead of the comfort and joy of the Lord, I had a horrible burden I could not bear with RA, and judgement and condemnation by two people thoroughly immersed in this evil heresy. I did not read my Bible or pray for 2 years, I was so depressed from the pain, and feeling totally abandoned by God.
exactly Angela....and that is what goes on and still folks are gonna say well, you know, we can speak the word and we can be healed and blah blah blah

I am of the very firm opinion that we are missing utterly what God is saying and people have take scripture and twisted it to mean what they either want or poorly understand and then they use it to attempt their own advantage

you see this in people praying soulish prayers that condemn others, rather then lifting them up to God, or praying manipulative prayers that people feel and suffer for ...they pray THEIR will on others and that is soulish at best and demonic at worst

we need to remember the devil comes as an angel of light...suggesting things even from the Bible but with just enough of a twist as to render it no longer the light from God it was meant to be

but I guess that is getting in too deep for some to acknowledge let alone think about it
 
Feb 24, 2015
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There is nothing biblical about driving cars or watching TV. I meditate on the Word of God and visualize as I do. I sometimes visualize the face of Jesus. Is this evil to do so because it doesn't say it in the bible?
Let us not get confused about creating models of things in our heads.
When you paint a room a different colour, often you will imagine in your head what it will
look like.

When I am solving a difficult computer problem, I visualise the concepts and see how
they fit together.

So it is a tool by which we an inspect and look at things.

What is error is when people link visualising something and then jumping into the idea
it will exist because you have imagined it. That is the step into insanity, but it is
attractive, because if you can imagine it in detail, all the desires and coveting over
the object can be amplified. So then preachers say, God will give this to you, if you
now give him or me x amount of dollars. This is pure emotional manipulation.

It is why God banned graven images. The difference in our minds between a statue
and a person is very small if the image is all we take in. So out of rock and wood the
impression of life can be created when it is in reality all empty and dead. The whole
emotional interplay between real life and our hopes and dreams is very important, and
the Lord wants the best for us.

This is my take on visualisation, and how it relates spiritually. So it is not in scripture
in one form, but certain applications and vulnerabilities certainly are.
 
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