ask Word of Faith! WOF

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notuptome

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May 17, 2013
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We might want to be a little careful in stating those kinds of "facts"... when we have the clear example of Mark 8: 22-26 placed in the Bible for us to read. That is the case where Jesus had to do a second "healing" because the man's sight was only partially restored on the first pass.
Just like when a man gets born again. Salvation restores life and then the discipleship begins. Restores sight then corrects the vision.

I suggest if it had served Jesus purpose He would have done the healing entirely and instantly. Jesus was not having an off day and had to go back and correct a mistake.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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LaurenTM

Guest
Let us not get confused about creating models of things in our heads.
When you paint a room a different colour, often you will imagine in your head what it will
look like.

When I am solving a difficult computer problem, I visualise the concepts and see how
they fit together.

So it is a tool by which we an inspect and look at things.

What is error is when people link visualising something and then jumping into the idea
it will exist because you have imagined it. That is the step into insanity, but it is
attractive, because if you can imagine it in detail, all the desires and coveting over
the object can be amplified. So then preachers say, God will give this to you, if you
now give him or me x amount of dollars. This is pure emotional manipulation.

It is why God banned graven images. The difference in our minds between a statue
and a person is very small if the image is all we take in. So out of rock and wood the
impression of life can be created when it is in reality all empty and dead. The whole
emotional interplay between real life and our hopes and dreams is very important, and
the Lord wants the best for us.

This is my take on visualisation, and how it relates spiritually. So it is not in scripture
in one form, but certain applications and vulnerabilities certainly are.



I actually agree with this. It is also my view on the use of visualization to obtain things from God

Don't do it!
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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I haven't read this whole thread, and maybe I'm just a simpleton, but I don't understand why we have to have labels and movements like WOF.

Christianity isn't a gimmick, or a formula. This feels kind of gimmicky to me.

Why can't we just be Christians who love Jesus for who He is and what He has done for us, and spread His Gospel to all?
 
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CharlieGrown

Guest
Back in 1998, when I first got Rheumatoid Arthritis, I was in extreme pain and getting deformities. Two old and close friends, who had been Pentecostal, told me that if I wasn't healed, I didn't have enough faith. So they prayed for me, and when I was not healed, they told me I was somehow blocking the will of God.

That started one of the worst times in my life. I love Jesus with all my heart, soul, body and mind, but instead of the comfort and joy of the Lord, I had a horrible burden I could not bear with RA, and judgement and condemnation by two people thoroughly immersed in this evil heresy. I did not read my Bible or pray for 2 years, I was so depressed from the pain, and feeling totally abandoned by God.

Then, the one woman, who was an evangelist, and ordained by Kenneth Copeland and had a huge church on Vancouver Island, got breast cancer. She refuses chemo and radiation. But her whole church claimed healing according to the tenets of the Word Faith movement. She spent all her time in praying, and "praying" the Word over herself. The doctors begged her to take treatment, but she told them she was healed.

Ten months later, she died, after the cancer metastasized, and drove her insane when it entered her brain. Very sad to lose a friend, who might not have had to die, had she not been in this terrible heretical cult.

The second friend started having prostate problems, which he was prayed for. He was not healed, and he was in such pain he finally got someone to drive him to the ER, where he was immediately taken for surgery. He has not had another problem, probably 15 years later, although he does have to do regular check ups. That sort of turned him away from WF, although he remains a Pentecostal.

So there you have it - Word Faith doctrine, discouraging me, killing one friend, and another realizing how wrong it is.

I have an excellent pamphlet written by one of the top Greek scholars in the world, Gordan Fee, who is a Pentecostal, who remains committed to divine healing, but never on command. He is of course, totally against the prosperity gospel. The pamphlet goes through both Prosperity and Word of Faith healing, and takes them apart. Healing is NOT included in the atonement, a very wrong reading of Isaiah 53. Prosperity is just wrong, although God does provide for our needs.

I will say, that despite the on-going health issues, that God has always provided for my husband and I and our children in marvelous ways. I praise him for that! But, I have never claimed it, just thanked God for his daily provision.

As far as healing, I know people are healed. But I was not, and I grew more from having RA, than in the 20 years of my Christian walk when I was healthy.

"More than that, we rejoice in our suffering, knowing that suffering produces endurance, endurance produces character and character produces hope. And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured out by the Holy Spirit who has been given to us." Romans 5:3-5

That is my life verse, and it has shown me that character, which is eternal, is so much more important than physical healing. I would love to be healed, but if I never am, I will rejoice in the blessings God has given me, the most important of which is knowing Christ.

Sorry to all of you who have heard this story over and over. If you want to actually discuss the false doctrine, and why the Word of Faith is wrong, deceiving, and not Biblical I would be happy to argue Scripture. I don't see that happening at all in this thread, so I won't get into it, unless someone wants to know the truth about what the Bible actually says.
This describes WOF as I know and have experienced it. It drives a wedge in relationship with The Lord, and heaps condemnation and guilt on it's victim. Why did Abraham plead for Sodom? He was the first man of faith, why didn't he just use his WOF to turn away the wrath of the Most High? What Abraham did was use his mind and logic to seek what the will of the Father was in that situation, and after he understood the judgement would fall, he logically and successfully pleaded (prayed) his desire.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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We might want to be a little careful in stating those kinds of "facts"... when we have the clear example of Mark 8: 22-26 placed in the Bible for us to read. That is the case where Jesus had to do a second "healing" because the man's sight was only partially restored on the first pass.
Did it last month, year or week? No.

Jesus healed his vision first and then, in one minute, the brain working with visuals. It takes some time for brain to accomodate to vision, for example in children. Jesus made this quickly, another miracle.

So this were not "two phases of healing" but one healing and then one fast change of man´s brain.

But he was healed immediatelly. It would only take time to get used to it, naturaly.
 
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trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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I agree with this and this brings up a good point!

sometimes in this life, healing is partial or done over time...either way, I firmly believe God's will is done IF we submit to Him and look to Him

being bold in prayer, does not mean loosing sight of just Who God is

I'm pretty sure you know that

we can have all kinds of wonderful moments with God, but He is still omnipotent and knows what is best and in this life we do not, nor are we even allowed, to have all the answers

I believe that God gave us what we need to know, enough to search Him out and stand on, and enough to understand where Truth is and can be found
God created our body with the ability to recover itself during time.

But when we talk about miraculous healing, it never takes time, days, weeks, months. Because it is a miracle.

When somebody was prayed for and a doctor can see the cancer in tests, he was not healed. No "actions of faith" needed to "obtain it" or something like that.
He may recover, the medical treatment can have effect or he may be miraculously healed later. But he is not in healed that moment. The end of medical treatment will kill him.

Actually, many TV preachers or WoT pastors could and should be in prison for killing people.
 
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Desertsrose

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2016
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Desertsrose,

Not all Charismatic churches are into WOF. A lot of them are turned off my some of the same things. The same is true with Pentecostals, though you'd probably find more Pentecostals that are more critical of WOF than among independent Charismatic churches in the US.
Hi Presidente,

One of the Charismatic churches we attended didn't focus on the name it claim it, nor did they demand healing. One of the errors they did have was the thinking that You're not baptized in the Holy Spirit if you don't speak in tongues. Some went so far as to say you aren't even saved if you don't speak in tongues. So they're not the typical word of faith, but had some aspects of it.

Do you know of one Charismatic church that isn't word of faith or have some aspects of the word of faith doctrines? You say a lot of them are turned off by some of the same things. Do you have a list of churches you know of that are turned off by these things?

I ask, because I don't know of one locally nor do I know of one through information via television or through research. And you say there's a lot. If there really is a lot that don't adhere to WOF, I would think that I would have heard of them. But maybe not.

 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
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WOW lol hey guys i'm back, and i'm gonna start responding to you! even LaurenTm lol just give me some time
 
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LaurenTM

Guest
God created our body with the ability to recover itself during time.

But when we talk about miraculous healing, it never takes time, days, weeks, months. Because it is a miracle.

When somebody was prayed for and a doctor can see the cancer in tests, he was not healed. No "actions of faith" needed to "obtain it" or something like that.
He may recover, the medical treatment can have effect or he may be miraculously healed later. But he is not in healed that moment. The end of medical treatment will kill him.

Actually, many TV preachers or WoT pastors could and should be in prison for killing people.
yeah.

I do and don't agree with this...for example, in healing of the mind, it takes time..and I have seen recovery that took time where surely if God had not intervened, death would have occured

I don't think we should confine 'miraculous' to a specific moment...

I agree about hirelings going to prison though...I guess their reward is on this earth, eh?

anyway, the discussion on healing may actually be a good topic for another thread...the topic always and I mean always, comes up when the subject/topic of WOF comes up

whether in this forum or another...
 
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LaurenTM

Guest
WOW lol hey guys i'm back, and i'm gonna start responding to you! even LaurenTm lol just give me some time

no need to mention me specifically since there are now folks here with stronger objections than mine



you took party to mocking me with someone else in another thread

I am not of the mind to continue to overlook that kind of un-Christian behavior or put up with insults and name calling...you have not done that but it is done all too often in the BDF and folks need to get called out on it

people need to stop...if you can't remember, I will pm you...don't want to introduce it here

let me know
 
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CharlieGrown

Guest
Hi Presidente,

One of the Charismatic churches we attended didn't focus on the name it claim it, nor did they demand healing. One of the errors they did have was the thinking that You're not baptized in the Holy Spirit if you don't speak in tongues. Some went so far as to say you aren't even saved if you don't speak in tongues. So they're not the typical word of faith, but had some aspects of it.

Do you know of one Charismatic church that isn't word of faith or have some aspects of the word of faith doctrines? You say a lot of them are turned off by some of the same things. Do you have a list of churches you know of that are turned off by these things?

I ask, because I don't know of one locally nor do I know of one through information via television or through research. And you say there's a lot. If there really is a lot that don't adhere to WOF, I would think that I would have heard of them. But maybe not.

I think you and I might have gone to the same church. ;). That is a HUGE false teaching, that speaking in tongues is the sole evidence of having the Holy Spirit. And it was used on us as well, it causes fear and doubt in one's salvation. What other reason would one go to church then to be reassured of our rightful standing with The Lord? But, creating these doubts are great control mechanisms, very efficient. :confused:
 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
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Withdraw yourself from that movement.. It is false..

1 Timothy 6:KJV
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
if you ask me, and come to know me, before you judged what you thought i was in you might know i wasn't lost.

[h=1]Hebrews 11:1King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.[/FONT]
 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
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no need to mention me specifically since there are now folks here with stronger objections than mine



you took party to mocking me with someone else in another thread

I am not of the mind to continue to overlook that kind of un-Christian behavior or put up with insults and name calling...you have not done that but it is done all too often in the BDF and folks need to get called out on it

people need to stop...if you can't remember, I will pm you...don't want to introduce it here

let me know
Lauren you have been straight cruel to men and others in this thread, but with what i have read i see you, and trust me i have a good 1 Corinthians 3:1 rebuking for you sister, i love you and it is not un-Christian, but trust me its even in your testimony.
 
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CharlieGrown

Guest
Lauren you have been straight cruel to men and others in this thread, but with what i have read i see you, and trust me i have a good 1 Corinthians 3:1 rebuking for you sister, i love you and it is not un-Christian, but trust me its even in your testimony.

[video=youtube;U9t-slLl30E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9t-slLl30E[/video]
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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Why is it that whenever someone speaks cold, hard, straight truth, they get called names like mean, bitter and cruel? I'm sorry, but there are MANY here who are mean, bitter and cruel most of the time. But personally I would not use those 3 specific words to describe Lauren. :)
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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yeah.

I do and don't agree with this...for example, in healing of the mind, it takes time..and I have seen recovery that took time where surely if God had not intervened, death would have occured

I don't think we should confine 'miraculous' to a specific moment...

I agree about hirelings going to prison though...I guess their reward is on this earth, eh?

anyway, the discussion on healing may actually be a good topic for another thread...the topic always and I mean always, comes up when the subject/topic of WOF comes up

whether in this forum or another...
When some local WoF church teaches or tries to persuade its members not to go to doctor, to end the treatment etc, I think it is a real criminal act like the instigating to commit suicide is.

I wonder why the police does not act in such cases. I think in Russia it took place and some people were put to prison.
 
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kaylagrl

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Why is it that whenever someone speaks cold, hard, straight truth, they get called names like mean, bitter and cruel? I'm sorry, but there are MANY here who are mean, bitter and cruel most of the time. But personally I would not use those 3 specific words to describe Lauren. :)
LadyBlue

are you picking on people again?! tsktsk
 

wanderer6059

Senior Member
Oct 27, 2013
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My husband and I were saved in a Baptist church, but there were 2 couples there whom we love very much. They were into the word of faith doctrines. We knew nothing. We were just good 'ol heathens that just got saved so what did we know?

One couple took us under their wing to show us the way to believe.
When I didn't get the gift of speaking in tongues, I was pressured to just blurt out whatever. I felt so bad and felt like I didn't have real faith and like there was something I just wasn't doing right.....something was wrong with me.

Later at another charismatic church, they did the same thing, saying to just blurt it out. They believe that you must speak in tongues or you don't have the Holy Spirit. some of them go so far as to say you're not even saved.

I had a gall bladder attack and had to have my gall bladder removed the month after being saved. Within 3 months I had fibromyalgia. At first the Doctors thought it was lupus. I was told not to confess I was sick and to claim my healing. That was 35 years ago and the fibromyalgia is still with me.

I've been a part of 5 different charismatic churches in the past, but no more. They don't teach the bible accurately.

They say things like - if God tells you to give $500 then give $1000. One pastor we saw in a home improvement store. We were new to the church and we were chatting with him. He told us during this conversation how he gets people to give more and more money to the church. I couldn't believe he was telling us this, but he said they'll paint a wall and ask people to give more so they can do more improvements to the building. He'll carpet one of the rooms so people will give more and more.

If we wanted things we were told to claim (not ask for) them and to tithe more. So we were to demand things from God.

We were taught that we're the head and not the tail. We were taught that nothing negative can happen and if it does, its the devil and tell him where to go.

They also would say to bind things and loose things. It was always bind the devil and loose money into my pocket.

Sin is never mentioned and everything is Satan's fault.

Quite a few years ago, we even got involved in the crazy laughter thing at the last church we were part of.

I could go on, but I'll just say that we've dusted our feet from the false doctrines they teach.
sister i'm sorry that sounds like a horrid experience! but that's not how it is supposed to be.

tongues is supposed to be natural and fluid not forced, it took me months to get it, and my fiance a year, its a gift from God, He gives it and we receive it.

and healing has been a topic that has been very badly miss conveyed. ill give you an example thought. my mother had breast cancer, when we were told, we stayed positive, admitted she was ill, and then prayed and said it was Gods will for her to be healed, and we thanked God for it after that, and through modern medicine she received her healing.

that pastor is off to, what our pastor does is tell us where our tithes will be spent, he shows us what the church uses money for and keeps us informed to make no room for the appearance of evil.

and i do think the devil is the reason for so much chaos and death, thats the reason he is here, but we do take the same approach to sin that we do illness, we clam the word over it.
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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LOL, Kayla.. Just making the point that people who are straightforward, like Lauren, myself, and many others here, get called names for daring to speak truth that not everyone wants to hear..


LadyBlue

are you picking on people again?! tsktsk
 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
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The W.O.F. forgot one letter- "L"- for it should stand for WOLF- as in wolf in sheep's clothing- which is what all false teaching is. They teach that God WANTS all of His people to have health and wealth no matter what. This is not true. God purposely did not take away Paul's "thorn" in his flesh. Paul left Timothy sick even though he had the power to heal him, because it was God's will. God said that those who give sparingly will reap sparingly- how then can one say God wants all His children to be wealthy?

It is NOT God's Will for us to be rich. He even says if your intention is to be rich, that you most certainly will not go unpunished. It is not wrong to have possessions, it is wrong to love money. Status symbols portray this attitude- it's not enough to have a new car without rust that runs good, you have to pay many times more just for the name brand- that is a definite sign of someone wanting to be rich. But God says to be poor in spirit- which means no matter how much you have, it is not the desire of your heart to please yourself, but to please God.

This false religion teaches that it's ok to be self-seeking- that God approves and will help you achieve it. When the Bible clearly shows that God wants us to be selfless, and to look to doing for others, not for ourselves. We can't do good for others if we don't first do good for ourselves- for how would we be able to feed others if we ourselves are lying on the ground unable to move from such a lack of food?

The DIFFERENCE is the focus is on taking care of myself so that I can take care of others. But the attitude of this false religion is to put the target goal on one's self instead of on others. Sure, they will share a dollar when they have a million, but but it is God's will for us to sacrifice something to Him that makes a noticeable difference in what we lack because it was sacrificed. Cain gave a genuine sacrifice, but God was not pleased with it. Cains focus was on himself- not on pleasing God.
 
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