atheists

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Kerry

Guest
Why can't lightning strike some pond scum and create a single cell amoeba today. Where is the half shark half whale. I mean if you mate horse and donkey you a mule ( which is great work animal) but, the mule can't reproduce. Where is the proof. I guess the first one that evolved with the power to write, should have wrote a book explaining how he changed. I mean christianity has an ancient book explaining creation. well I guess they could write but were to busy collecting bananas.
 
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Tethered

Guest
How come chimps aren't turning into humans today. I mean they did it millions of years ago. Why can't they do it now?
And how come we still have english people, shouldn't they evolve into americans? They did it 200+ years ago!
 
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Grey

Guest
A Question! (Kinda)
Atheists come to christian sites for a variety of reasons MaranathaSoonQuick.
Some do it merely to antagonize the ~fundies~ (as they like to call us).
Some, to display what they consider a superior intellect - as obviously no right minded or intelligent individual could believe in a "god".
Some show up just to be adversarial regarding ANY position a christian might take on any topic or issue. (Oddly enough MaranathaSoonQuick, I see a few who say they are christian do exactly the same thing. Odd,huh?)
Some come because they are ~doubting~ their belief system and the Spirit leads them here to find answers. THESE MaranathaSoonQuick, are who we are to speak to about Jesus.
:D
And some were Christians themselves on here, and when they became atheists, figured theres no reason they have to leave considering that theres a box on your profile for labeling yourself Christian or not.
 
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Grey

Guest
How come chimps aren't turning into humans today. I mean they did it millions of years ago. Why can't they do it now?
Because we didn't evolve directly from them, we share a common ancestor, not to mention both of us are still evolving. Humans may not necessarily "the fittest" for living in the bush.
 
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Grey

Guest
Why can't lightning strike some pond scum and create a single cell amoeba today. Where is the half shark half whale. I mean if you mate horse and donkey you a mule ( which is great work animal) but, the mule can't reproduce. Where is the proof. I guess the first one that evolved with the power to write, should have wrote a book explaining how he changed. I mean christianity has an ancient book explaining creation. well I guess they could write but were to busy collecting bananas.
And why have you presented us with an argument made of straw?

1. See Miller Urey Experiment
2. A shark is a fish a whale is a mammal, they aren't going to be incredibly closely related.
3. I have no idea where you're going with this but, yes multiple animals (of different species) can produce fertile offspring.
4. We're literally drowning in proof.
 
Aug 25, 2013
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Bryancampbell said:
Funny cuz we humans don't have instinct, we are not bound to live a fenced mindset to keep us surviving.
Following is a list of proposed human instincts:

[h=3]SUSTENANCE[/h] 1. eat and drink; seek food and water 2. seek sweet and fatty (nutritious) foods
3. avoid eating smelly or bitter things 4. be cautious about novel foods 5. seek better resources than presently available 6. seek neighborhoods that are green and flowery [h=3]SEX[/h] 7. be interested in girls or boys (usually of opposite sex) 8. seek sexual contact and excitement; "do the deed" - but in privateand not with your children or parents 9. love children and the cute (female more than male) 10. compete for resources (wealth, fame, etc.) 11. pair up; find longterm partners (female more than male) 12. compete for the best (and, for males, the most) partners (eg, show off, dress up) 13. be aggressive, use force to gain advantage (male more than female) [h=3]DEFENSE[/h] 14. blink; flinch; flee 15. frown; snarl; attack for advantage (male more than female) 16. keep yourself alive; ensure your genetic survival 17. protect your own family 18. grades of importance: own children > spouse > siblings > clan, etc 19. obtain and defend resources: jobs, land, property, hunting rights, sex partners, etc. (male more than female) [h=3]SOCIALITY[/h] 20. bond with your group, hangout with your family 21. try to reduce conflict within your group (female more than male) 22. compete for leadership in groups 23. imitate others: beliefs, knowledge and skills 24. be wary of and dislike `outsiders' 25. teach youngsters (female more than male) 26. smile; laugh; mope; frown; strut; cry 27. celebrate; share gifts (esp food); hug; grieve 28. display emotions: anger, happiness, disgust, sadness, fear, surprise [h=3]KNOW/LEARN [/h] 29. be curious about stuff, make sense of things 30. learn about your surroundings 31. play with toys (objects, pets, tools, machines, etc) 32. explore new places, find more efficient methods 33. be more adventurous - especially when young [h=3]TALK[/h] 34. learn new words and more effective speech (especially the young) 35. chitchat; commiserate; boast; scold; make jokes; entertain 36. organize others' behavior; lead your fellows (male more than female) 37. tell and listen to stories
38. make music, make artistic objects


These may very well be instinctual in humans. For example you never hear chimps cry, but human children seem to do it instinctually. I am quite certain they don't have to be taught. We begin as babies whenever we are uncomfortable: whether we are too hot or cold, wet, hungry or fearful.

I think a strong cases can be made for other items on the list, but crying seems an open and shut case. Babies are not taught to cry -- it is something we just seem born to do.

see: Port's Instinct List
 
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Kerry said:
How come chimps aren't turning into humans today. I mean they did it millions of years ago. Why can't they do it now?
Grey said:
Because we didn't evolve directly from them, we share a common ancestor, not to mention both of us are still evolving. Humans may not necessarily "the fittest" for living in the bush.
Kerry has a valid question. Why don't chimps evolve into something more resembling humans? My answer is -- perhaps they are.

And what would our fitness for living in the bush have to do with the evolutionary path of chimps? Just nit-picking. :)

You are right to point out that evolutionary theory does not say chimps evolved into humans. Many creationists seem not to understand this.
 
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Bryancampbell

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Following is a list of proposed human instincts:

SUSTENANCE

1. eat and drink; seek food and water 2. seek sweet and fatty (nutritious) foods
3. avoid eating smelly or bitter things 4. be cautious about novel foods 5. seek better resources than presently available 6. seek neighborhoods that are green and flowery SEX

7. be interested in girls or boys (usually of opposite sex) 8. seek sexual contact and excitement; "do the deed" - but in privateand not with your children or parents 9. love children and the cute (female more than male) 10. compete for resources (wealth, fame, etc.) 11. pair up; find longterm partners (female more than male) 12. compete for the best (and, for males, the most) partners (eg, show off, dress up) 13. be aggressive, use force to gain advantage (male more than female) DEFENSE

14. blink; flinch; flee 15. frown; snarl; attack for advantage (male more than female) 16. keep yourself alive; ensure your genetic survival 17. protect your own family 18. grades of importance: own children > spouse > siblings > clan, etc 19. obtain and defend resources: jobs, land, property, hunting rights, sex partners, etc. (male more than female) SOCIALITY

20. bond with your group, hangout with your family 21. try to reduce conflict within your group (female more than male) 22. compete for leadership in groups 23. imitate others: beliefs, knowledge and skills 24. be wary of and dislike `outsiders' 25. teach youngsters (female more than male) 26. smile; laugh; mope; frown; strut; cry 27. celebrate; share gifts (esp food); hug; grieve 28. display emotions: anger, happiness, disgust, sadness, fear, surprise KNOW/LEARN

29. be curious about stuff, make sense of things 30. learn about your surroundings 31. play with toys (objects, pets, tools, machines, etc) 32. explore new places, find more efficient methods 33. be more adventurous - especially when young TALK

34. learn new words and more effective speech (especially the young) 35. chitchat; commiserate; boast; scold; make jokes; entertain 36. organize others' behavior; lead your fellows (male more than female) 37. tell and listen to stories
38. make music, make artistic objects


These may very well be instinctual in humans. For example you never hear chimps cry, but human children seem to do it instinctually. I am quite certain they don't have to be taught. We begin as babies whenever we are uncomfortable: whether we are too hot or cold, wet, hungry or fearful.

I think a strong cases can be made for other items on the list, but crying seems an open and shut case. Babies are not taught to cry -- it is something we just seem born to do.

see: Port's Instinct List

1. "Man does not live on bread alone, but every word that proceeds from the mouth of God" - Jesus. Humans can fast.
2. People on diets tend sometimes learn to adapt to their sustain from certain foods.
3,4. People, not all, some accept foods bitter or bland (example tofu). This concludes that humans try "new" things as they grow up [experiment tastes] and happily accept what they like, unlike animals who stick mainly to a specific diet.
5. Although humans, not all, seek resources presentable, but some, not all, take what they see or of being lazy and with weak notions of caring. We got division between the two as common instead of a common ground.
6. This is usually labelled feminine in modern society, with is sometimes not a norm among groups of people. (Don't know what the word sex represented in that)
7. That is common, as it said usually opposite sex, even though homosexuality and bestiality is known among sinful human.
8. Some men and women become or born as eunuchs (also referred to as celibate) which would not cause passion for another under great discipline, sometimes for some no discipline.
9. Families known for sacrificing children (Incas, Moloch, etc) with merciless hearts, because of their reprobated hearts that have been seered with a hot iron.
10. Coming to change, synonym for repentance, can change a ego to a let go, and desire another's well-being instead your own.
11. - See also 8<<
12. -.See also 10<<
13. Meek and those with low self-esteem don't always automatically gain this ability.
14. That is the same as breathing, though one can stop anytime they want, and are aware. Animals aren't usually seen to want to hold their breath, stop blinking, and know not to finch since they can't comprehend to the reason why they should or would want to [if such a thought could be in their minds]
15. Known humans can smile in situations that don't match an emotion, for an animal they won't giggle in a situation of were they are beaten and are abused, but the mentally insane human can, or just any human (I use to get spankings till I learned to laugh through them which confused my parents).
16, 17. Everyone needs to survive, but one problem, suicide is known among humans, animals aren't always that imaginable. Humans can kill themselves in almost every kind of way, animals aren't stupid, they see danger they run or try to escape, even in an aggressive way sometimes by abandoning their young (such as deer, zebras, monkeys, etc) out of instinct.
18. People are known for taking things against their family's honor, such as being overpowered by love, by dreams and achievements, or doing what's right, etc.
19. I went out with a girl and she didn't defend me in front of her family out of being madly in love for 13 months. Some people, even suicidal give up in defending anything.
20. People, not all, like peaceful serenic living alone, but I guess in this we agree that everyone has a need and want to bond.
21. Some or most want to start conflict, drama, fights, etc. Which both types, peaceful and conflicting people are divided. Not one specific.
22. Some are made followers, and enjoy second place. Second command, second best.
23. Some want to be ignorant of what's really out there, and grow and teach what they believe and want (we have a lot of that among anybody, groups aren't limited).
24. It's always been popular among some humans to enjoy the outcast, the law breaker. Some are put in a position by society, groups, or people.
25. This is true, teaching youngsters is a good feeling.
26. That's completely changeable in any circumstance, animals don't want to smile (if they can) when their predator is chasing them. But humans can laugh in fear by independent choice.
27. Sharing is not very common among sinful men sometimes.
28. That's not an instinct, that's facial expressions.
29, 30. Curiosity was always built in man, some animals get curious, but their attention span doesn't last for that one thing unlike a man, and his dreams and goals in life.
31. Interactions comes through almost anything, so this is actually natural, but I wouldn't classify it in very instinct as well.
32. Some people are afraid to see the bigger world, or discovering something new (example is people thinking the world was flat, in that, no one was brave enough to sail the seas except explorers and such)
33. Curiosity. A given, not an instinct.
34. Improvement and growth isn't an instinct.
35. Read posts before this one of the same matter.
36. Some choose others to do that for them, some with lots of money as well. Brings some people to the lack of doing. Being unorganized.
37. Not an instinct, but a gift. Some children never hear stories or even teach them. Literature and education in modern society has.helped and improved our mentality.
38. Music isn't an instinct.

With all this being said, we see humans are divided mainly in two or more options in almost everything. We cannot specify one general thing for the average human when numbers for opposing sides change throughout the ages, and number of people participating in a certain "culture" which also effectively goes against instinct.

We don't have instinct, we have influence. Influence is exponential or gradual [expanding, drastically changing, not in order], instinct is finite and limited [kept within perimeters].
 
Aug 25, 2013
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How come chimps aren't turning into humans today. I mean they did it millions of years ago. Why can't they do it now?
Hi Kerry, nice to chat with you.

Grey has the right of it. Evolutionary theory states that chimpanzees and humans had a common ancestor, chimps did not evolve into humans; but you do have a valid question. Why don't chimps evolve into human-like creatures?

I think the simple answer is they probably could given tens of millions of years. Another possibility is that they are doing so as we speak. That is not an evolutionary claim, it is a personal one made by myself. Unfortunately they are endangered and may only be around a few decades more in the wild.

There are two distinct populations of chimpanzees: the common chimp and the bonobo (you may already know this). Bonobos look very similar to the common chimpanzee but their behaviour is quite different, and remarkably human. They also have one important physical difference that make them appear more human-like in their behaviour. In bonobo females the angle of the vagina is midway between that of common chimp females and human females. Whereas male common chimps can only mount from the rear, male and female bonobos are just as likely to mount face-to-face. They have the option of doing it either way. When bonobo females evolved this physical trait I don’t know, but I would think this may show they are more closely related to humans than are the common chimps, or they evolved this trait more recently, and if so perhaps they are evolving into human-like creatures.

Their social structure is different from common chimps as well. The females bond in strong social groups that prevent the males from dominating them. Among common chimps an alpha male is in charge, but not among the bonobos. Females tighten these female to female social bonds by engaging sexual activity with on another. Common sexual activity among bonobos includes ‘French’ kissing and oral sex. I think I will stop there. Wikipedia has a good article on the bonobo chimpanzee, you might want to have a look at it.
 
May 18, 2010
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what does evolution say led up to the ape like, earlier humans? (just out of curiosity)
 
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1. "Man does not live on bread alone, but every word that proceeds from the mouth of God" - Jesus. Humans can fast...
Thirty-eight points. That's a lot to respond to and for much of it I don't see how it's related to whether or not humans are born with natural instincts, which is a topic you raised.

The one point in Port's Instinct List that grabbed my attention immediately you made no reference to in your rebuttal. I get that creationists don't like the idea that humans have natural instincts. You want to believe we were part of a special creation and are not members of the animal kingdom. If we share characteristics with the animals that are too obvious then it will look more likely that we did evolve. If, on the other hand, we have no innate instincts that would sets us apart from the animal kingdom and help safeguard the claim to special creation; but it looks to me as though we do have instincts – perhaps lots of them.

Let’s start with just one: crying. Crying does seem instinctive among humans. We begin as soon are we are born. We are not taught to cry. It comes naturally to us. Whenever we are uncomfortable as infants we cry: if we are too hot or cold we cry; too wet, we cry; too hungry or fearful, we cry. It’s a natural response. It has all the earmarks of an innate instinct that we have no control over.

This, to my thinking, is proof that humans have at least one obvious instinct. I think there are more, but let’s settle this one first, shall we?
 
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what does evolution say led up to the ape like, earlier humans? (just out of curiosity)
It would be a primate of some sort -- something resembling a monkey I would think. The ape fossil record is getting quite large, but our pre-ape ancestors were smaller and much further back in time. Go to the rainforest today and try and find a dead monkey anywhere -- you'll be hard-put. Then try and find a fossil of a species currently living in that same forest -- good luck! When you die in a rainforest your body tends to get recycled instead of preserved.

Some possible monkey-like ancestor fossils have been found, but I think too few to give a true picture. More will turn up for sure. We just have to wait.
 
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VanIsland

Guest
I am an atheist.

"If atheists don't believe in God, then why do they:

1) get mad at Him?” --> I don’t get mad at your god.
2) Blame Him for everything --> I don’t blame him for everything
3) can't tolerate other religious views other than their own --> I’m happy to tolerate other religions within reason. If you would like to practise your religion thats fine. If you want to impose your religious views on public education and politics then there is an issue.

With regards to the topics in biology (note atheism is in no way dependant on science. Some atheists use their understanding of science to justify their position, but some christians are able to keep their faith without disregarding modern science):

1) Why do they call it a theory, but still teach it through books and school? --> Please learn the appropriate jargon. A “theory” is different from a “scientific Theory”. I think you have confused Scientific Theory with an unverified hypothesis.


Examples of Scientific theories: Gravitational Theory, Theory of Evolution, General Relativity, Big Bang, Quantum field, germ theory, etc

What is a scientific theory:

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on knowledge that has been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experimentation.

Scientists create scientific theories from hypotheses that have been corroborated through the scientific method, then gather evidence to test their accuracy. As with all forms of scientific knowledge, scientific theories are inductive in nature and aim for predictive and explanatory force.

The strength of a scientific theory is related to the diversity of phenomena it can explain, which is measured by its ability to make falsifiable predictions with respect to those phenomena. Theories are improved as more evidence is gathered, so that accuracy in prediction improves over time. Scientists use theories as a foundation to gain further scientific knowledge, as well as to accomplish goals such as inventing technology or curing disease.
 
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VanIsland

Guest
@ed2



"I realized there is no such thing as an atheist.” --> What makes you say this? All an atheist is, is an individual who doesn’t believe in gods, lacks a belief in gods or believes that there are no gods. I know individuals who claim to hold this position and I myself hold it as well.
 
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phil-uk

Guest
It takes a special kind of atheist to sign up for a Christian chat forum. They don't believe in God yet insist on talking about him all the time! My thoughts on evolution are undecided, yet either way its irrelevant to what salvation in Christ gives you. I say people stop entertaining the atheist trolls and keep your faith strong. This is a detour set up by Satan himself.
 
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megaman125

Guest
It's the old Argument from Evil; following is the basic formula:

If God is all good He cannot be all powerful,
Because He evidently cannot prevent evil.
If He is all powerful He cannot be all good
Because He allows evil to exist.


It's not just atheists who raise this matter. Christians struggle with it as well, as I am sure you know, and they've written about it extensively. Some have even lost their faith because they couldn't resolve the issue.
Yet many times it all just boils down to the fact that they don't like the idea of God holding them accountable for their own sins. It hurts their pride too much, so they try to bury the truth in search of an explaination that tickles their ears more. When they don't find it and are left with the reality that they have to answer for their own sins, sometimes their pride gets in the way and as a result they turn from God and lash out against Him and His followers.


I am one who is quick to point out that saddling Darwin with the obvious fact that he is human is no argument against evolution. Men have been right too many times to make the argument that evolution must be wrong because Darwin is a man, but Creationists still make that argument and think they are saying something important. If you think the theory of evolution is false then attack the evidence propping it up for the man could well be right.
Tell that to all the atheists who say the Bible is false because it was written by man. If you get to use that nonsensical arguement, you can't cry foul when it's used against you. If you don't subscribe to that arguement (because I'm sure that's the next thing you would have posted if it weren't for the rest of this paragraph, you atheists are so predictible) then there would be no reason for you to get so defensive about it. After all, I wasn't directed that post at anyone specific, so the only reason for you to be getting so uppity about it is if it actually does apply to you.

The first book of scripture has all the earmarks of myth upon it. Genesis makes far more sense once it is placed within the context of Bronze Age mythology. That is a statement that needs corroboration. It can't stand alone, but I believe it can be proven. If successful all opposition to evolution would melt away.
That's all just your opinion, and not one that I need, or will, subscribe to.

Why is it only religious people that deny evolution?
I believe in the academic science world the acceptance
level of evolution is over 90 percent. If, however, evolution
was disproved tomorrow I would be fine with it. Science
gets us closer to the truth. Disproving it still doesn't
prove creationism though.
Only religious people accept the claims of evolution. Beliefs about events from "billions of years ago" is nothing more than a religious, faith based belief, no matter how you want to spin it. As for your 90%, scientists aren't allowed to question evolution because if they do, they get fired and blacklisted because of censorship. The evolutionists have to resort to the low-ball tactic of censorship because they know their claims about billions of years ago doesn't stand up to questioning.
 
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It takes a special kind of atheist to sign up for a Christian chat forum. They don't believe in God yet insist on talking about him all the time!
Hi Phil, I know about about seven atheists well enough to tell you that of the bunch I am the only one to bother chatting on Christian forums, so yes, perhaps it does take a certain kind of atheist.

phil-uk said:
I say people stop entertaining the atheist trolls and keep your faith strong. This is a detour set up by Satan himself.
Trolls are what we are to you? I am sorry you feel that way, and I am sorry your solution is to shut the door on discussion as the means of safeguarding your faith.
 
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megaman125

Guest
Trolls are what we are to you? I am sorry you feel that way, and I am sorry your solution is to shut the door on discussion as the means of safeguarding your faith.
1. I bet he feels that way because 99% of atheists that you meet on the internet, especially in religious or atheist forums, are so standard, predictible, typical, richard dawkins puppets, and I can't blame him for calling them trolls.

2. You further go on to demonstrate #1 when you assume he's doing it to "safeguard his own faith," as if you're so high and mighty that you could put his faith in some sort of jeopardy. Of course, you refuse the possibility that maybe, just maybe, he shuts the door on conversations with atheists because of the way atheists act, from claiming absolute knowledge about how the athesits KNOW how the universe began and how they KNOW it wasn't intelligently designed, to constantly throwing around insults to Christians and mocking their beliefs.

Or maybe he's just tired of atheists parroting the same 2 dozen or so typical arguments that have been refuted millions of times. Of course the atheists don't see it that way because they would rather refuse to acknowledge that a perspective other than their own view is reasonable, or even possibly correct. But it's easier for them to sleep at night when they pretend there's no plausable opposition to their mighty atheism, far easier than humbling themselves in any way.
 
Aug 22, 2013
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1. I bet he feels that way because 99% of atheists that you meet on the internet, especially in religious or atheist forums, are so standard, predictible, typical, richard dawkins puppets, and I can't blame him for calling them trolls.

2. You further go on to demonstrate #1 when you assume he's doing it to "safeguard his own faith," as if you're so high and mighty that you could put his faith in some sort of jeopardy. Of course, you refuse the possibility that maybe, just maybe, he shuts the door on conversations with atheists because of the way atheists act, from claiming absolute knowledge about how the athesits KNOW how the universe began and how they KNOW it wasn't intelligently designed, to constantly throwing around insults to Christians and mocking their beliefs.

Or maybe he's just tired of atheists parroting the same 2 dozen or so typical arguments that have been refuted millions of times. Of course the atheists don't see it that way because they would rather refuse to acknowledge that a perspective other than their own view is reasonable, or even possibly correct. But it's easier for them to sleep at night when they pretend there's no plausable opposition to their mighty atheism, far easier than humbling themselves in any way.
Which atheist arguments have been refuted?