Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians

[tanakh]

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord that we which are alive and
remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent those who are asleep
For the Lord himself shall decend from heaven with a shout with the voice of
the archangel and with the trump of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first
wherefore comfort one another with these word But of the and the seasons
brethren ye have no need that I write to unto you For yourselves know perfectly
that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they say Peace
and safety then sudden destruction cometh upon them as travail upon a woman
with child and they shall not escape. But ye brethren are not in darkness that that
day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light and the children
of the day we are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep as do
others let us watch and be sober For those who sleep sleep in the night and they that
be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us who are of the day be sober putting on
the breastplate of faith and love and for an helmet the hope of salvation. For God has
not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 4: 15 - 18, 5: 1-9 KJV

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened and the
moon shall not give her light and the stars shall fall from heaven and the powers
of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven
and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn and they shall see the Son of Man the coming
in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a great
sound of a trumpet and they shall gather the elect together the from the four winds from one
end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24: 29-31 KJV

Howl ye for the day of the Lord is at hand it shall come as a destruction
from the Almighty. Therefore shall all hands be faint and every mans heart
shall melt. And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them
they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at
another their faces shall be as flames. Behold the day of the Lord cometh cruel
both with wrath and with anger to lay the land desolate and he shall destroy sinners
thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations therof shall not give
their light the sun shall be darkened in his going forth and the moon shall not cause
her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil and the wicked for their
iniquity and I will cause the arrogancy to cease and will lay low the haughtiness of
the terrible

Isaiah 13: 6-11 KJV

The earth shall quake before them The heavens shall tremble
the sun and moon shall be dark and the stars shall withdraw
their shining. And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army
for his camp is very great for he is strong who executive his word
for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible and who can abide it

Joel 2:10-11 KJV

The great day of the Lord is near ,it is near and hasteth greatly
even the voice of the day of the Lord the mighty man shall cry
there bitterly That day is a day of wrath a day of trouble and
distress a day of wasteness and desolation a day of darkness
and gloominess a day of thick clouds and darkness. A day of
the trumpet and the alarm against the fenced cities and against
the high towers.

Zephaniah 1: 14-15 KJV

In Thessalonians Paul mentions the day of the Lord twice in the passage above.
He also mentions the Lord coming with a shout the sound of a Trumpet and
j
sudden destruction which he likens to womans birth pains. This passage is
used over and over by Pre Tribbers to support their position.

Jesus described his coming as the sun moon and stars falling from heaven. He also mentioned the sound of a trumpet.
He said that all this would happen after the tribulation. If you compare the details of the thessalonian and Matthew passages
with the OT passages you will find that the day of the Lord and Gods wrath happen after the tribulation period. The rapture I
believe happens at the same time as the second coming. There is no secret silent rapture.

The trumpet blown

 

[cv5]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Matthew 25:46 represents the GWT, no human bodies are left to populate earth, eternity dosent have mortals human present for 1,000 years, judgement is complete.

There is no mortal Millennial Kingdom Seen, None!

Matthew 25 sheep/goats judgement is nothing more than a "Parable" of the Great White Throne judgement seen in Revelation 20:11-15

As is clearly seen in Matthew 25:46 the final judgement takes place, as the wicked are judged to everlasting punishment, and the righteous enter eternal life, in the "ETERNAL KINGDOM"!

Matthew 25:46KJV
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

You may have failed to note that there is no resurrection anywhere noted in Matthew 25, therefore it cannot be speaking of the WTJ, where a resurrection is mandated. Furthermore there are no righteous being judged at the GWT, nor are there any rewards given, nor is there any commendation. IMO the sum total of all of the redeemed /righteous have already been dealt with at the point of the WTJ.

 

[Runningman]

[and, by the way, the passages speaking of "one shall be taken, the other LEFT" is what will take place at the time of His Second Coming TO THE EARTH (not a Rapture context, here), where just like in Noah's day, the ones "taken" are "taken away in judgment," and the ones "left" will be "left to enter the earthly MK age" in their mortal bodies, JUST LIKE IN NOAH'S DAY ]

The post-trib view is that that the rapture occurs at the second coming of Christ because there are verses that reference the second coming in conjunction with people being taken away and others left behind or being caught up into the clouds in the sky when Christ returns. The second coming is also when post-trib believe the great white throne judgement of sheep and goats occurs either simaltaneously or shortly thereafter. That's also the end of the battle of Armageddon. I believe I was the one who referred to it as the end of the world because everything comes to a head.

Basically Christ returns, takes his people and wipes everyone else out like in the great flood. And like the great flood of Noah's day, Noah and his family were safe in the ark during God's judgement of the earth, not taken away. Christ is symbolic of the ark in Matthew 24 and his returned in compared to the great flood.

Again, we just disagree on the timing of things in my estimation.

 

[cv5]

Normally the success rate is very very low when dealing with cults. Cultist ignore plain easy to understanding verbiage like it is appointed to man once to die. You don’t believe that whatsoever because your cult, not the Bible, has taught you that the bodies of special groups like Enoch and Elijah and your special group will never die.

Cults are never interested in biblical truth.

You fail even at the point of "it is appointed to man once to die". Everybody knows of the exceptions, variations and the permutations to this verse and how and why.

 

[cv5]

The post-trib view is that that the rapture occurs at the second coming of Christ because there are verses that reference the second coming in conjunction with people being taken away and others left behind or being caught up into the clouds in the sky when Christ returns. The second coming is also when post-trib believe the great white throne judgement of sheep and goats occurs either simaltaneously or shortly thereafter. That's also the end of the battle of Armageddon. I believe I was the one who referred to it as the end of the world because everything comes to a head.

Basically Christ returns, takes his people and wipes everyone else out like in the great flood. And like the great flood of Noah's day, Noah and his family were safe in the ark during God's judgement of the earth, not taken away. Christ is symbolic of the ark in Matthew 24 and his returned in compared to the great flood.

Again, we just disagree on the timing of things in my estimation.

No, Christ takes His people BEFORE the flood aka the tribulation period aka time of God's wrath.
And there is plenty of precedent for this is happening as we all well know.

 

[Runningman]

The post-trib view is that that the rapture occurs at the second coming of Christ because there are verses that reference the second coming in conjunction with people being taken away and others left behind or being caught up into the clouds in the sky when Christ returns. The second coming is also when post-trib believe the great white throne judgement of sheep and goats occurs either simaltaneously or shortly thereafter. That's also the end of the battle of Armageddon. I believe I was the one who referred to it as the end of the world because everything comes to a head.

Basically Christ returns, takes his people and wipes everyone else out like in the great flood. And like the great flood of Noah's day, Noah and his family were safe in the ark during God's judgement of the earth, not taken away. Christ is symbolic of the ark in Matthew 24 and his returned in compared to the great flood.

Again, we just disagree on the timing of things in my estimation.

Also to add, missed the edit time frame.

After the second return of Christ a millennial kingdom is mentioned so that's when that happens. Everything comes to an end in the twinkling of an eye.

 

[cv5]

Also to add, missed the edit time frame.

After the second return of Christ a millennial kingdom is mentioned so that's when that happens. Everything comes to an end in the twinkling of an eye.

Nope. I see no connection between the millennial kingdom and the twinkling of an eye in my Bible.

 

[KJV1611]

You fail even at the point of "it is appointed to man once to die". Everybody knows of the exceptions, variations and the permutations to this verse and how and why.

Name one person in the Bible who’s body NEVER DIED. I’m NOT asking you to name one person in the Bible who was TRANSLATED just prior to their bodies dying. No I want you to find averse that contradicts this verse. Emphasis on “These ALL DIED”.

Heb 11:13 (KJV) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

 

[Runningman]

No, Christ takes His people BEFORE the flood aka the tribulation period aka time of God's wrath.
And there is plenty of precedent for this is happening as we all well know.

I think the great tribulation will contain some of God's wrath as mentioned in Revelation, but the majority of it will be the devil's wrath. Christians won't be subject to God's wrath during the GT, but they will be persecuted by the forces of evil. God's full wrath seems more like what will occur to goats on judgement day.

Yes, I get it. We disagree and that's fine. I understand your pre-trib view I think. I'm just speaking of it the way I understand it from a Biblical perspective. What we really need is a verse that plainly states in no uncertain terms a numbered list of events. I don't think we have that.

 

[cv5]

I think the great tribulation will contain some of God's wrath as mentioned in Revelation, but the majority of it will be the devil's wrath. Christians won't be subject to God's wrath during the GT, but they will be persecuted by the forces of evil. God's full wrath seems more like what will occur to goats on judgement day.

Yes, I get it. We disagree and that's fine. I understand your pre-trib view I think. I'm just speaking of it the way I understand it from a Biblical perspective. What we really need is a verse that plainly states in no uncertain terms a numbered list of events. I don't think we have that.

Wrong again! In the book of Revelation, conduct a word search on the term "wrath".

God's wrath is mentioned 11 times, The wrath of the Lamb is mentioned once, and the wrath of the devil is mentioned once.

It is the time of God's wrath. Believe it!

 

[Runningman]

Wrong again! In the book of Revelation, conduct a word search on the term "wrath".

God's wrath is mentioned 11 times, The wrath of the Lamb is mentioned once, and the wrath of the devil is mentioned once.

It is the time of God's wrath. Believe it!

The frequency of the word wrath being used isn't an indicator that the great tribulation is God's wrath. Christians are not appointed to wrath, rather it is a forgone conclusion that we will endure trials and tribulations.

Acts 14:22
"...where they strengthened the believers. They encouraged them to continue in the faith, reminding them that we must suffer many hardships to enter the Kingdom of God."

Please note that hardships are not damnation, definitively an example of God's wrath. The Bible is clear in it's distinction between the wrath of God and worldly persecution, hardhips, and tribulation.

Look up the Greek for Tribulation and compare it to contexts of wrath.

A question, if the great tribulation event is God's wrath then how are there armies of people available to fight the war of Armageddon as mentioned in Revelation?

If the great flood only spared 8 people in Noah's day then by comparison the great tribulation would hold no comparison. What I am positing is that the second coming of Christ will be like the great flood and no one will survive this time except God's elect. Matthew 24 compares the second coming of Christ to the great flood. Are you beginning to atleast see what I am trying to show you?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ I would just like to mention here (although I have reasons I've present before about how I see His "wrath" starting at the FIRST Seal, at the START of the trib, when you compare the wording between 2Th2:7b-8a with that of Lam2:3-4 [see its "wrath" words there also]), I also see where 1 Thessalonians 1:10 is not exactly specifying what kind or whose "wrath," it just states, "[out-]from [ek] THE WRATH COMING" (that is, "coming" at a particular time-period, and not here stating a specified "wrath"... [I think it pertains to all the categories of it we see in Rev]):

"and to await His Son [out-]from [ek] the heavens, whom He raised out-from [ek] the dead--Jesus, the one delivering us [out-]from [ek] the wrath coming."


[along with 1Th5 also speaking of the fact that "God has not appointed US unto wrath..." (in the context of Paul's referring to "the Day of the Lord" and its ARRIVAL being like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" of a woman in labor... (it is not "ONE and DONE" as far as "PANGS" go... , but its ARRIVAL is as the INITAL birth PANG [SINGULAR], like Jesus spoke of...[in the PLURAL, of these])]

 

[tanakh]

This is a continuation of my post 621 I had some gliche with my computer. I wonder who arranged that!!!

What I wanted to say is the trumpet blown at the second coming is I believe the seventh mentioned in Revelation. It is literally
the last trump both in Revelation and the bible as a whole.

The wrath of God takes place at the second coming. In the Bible there are two main groups of people mentioned. The Israelites/Jews
and the Church. In Dispensationalism the whole 70th week is seen as the tribulation/wrath of God so to avoid the church going through the supposed wrath a Pre Trib rapture is created. This solves the wrath problem. But it creates another one. Who are the people who come out of the tribulation who cannot be numbered? Their answer is to create a kind of second class Christian known the tribulation saint. These people missed the boat the first time around so the only way they can make it is to be killed by antichrist.
No wedding cake for them!

The truth as I see it is this second class group are in fact the Church still on earth waiting for the second coming and being persecuted
by the wrath of Satan the antichrist and the false prophet. The persecution will intensify over a period of time but will come to a head when the Antichrist is revealed and claims himself to be God. This present time could the rumbling preparation for his appearence and empire. I wouldnt swear to it or put a date on it but the thing for certain is that the world cant go on as it is forever and every year that goes by gets worst both in nature and in every avenue of human activity. Remember the Scout Motto 'Be Prepared'

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

This is a continuation of my post 621 I had some gliche with my computer. I wonder who arranged that!!! [...<snip to condense>...]]
This solves the wrath problem. But it creates another one. Who are the people who come out of the tribulation who cannot be numbered? Their answer is to create a kind of second class Christian known the tribulation saint. These people missed the boat the first time around so the only way they can make it is to be killed by antichrist.
No wedding cake for them!

The bolded items ^ show what I believe to be a misunderstanding of a couple of things.

Yes, the "a great multitude... of all the nations" that cannot be numbered are said to be "coming out of THE GREAT tribulation..." (that is, coming out of the SECOND HALF part of it). This does not mean, as I see it, that ALL "saints" (who will have come to faith IN/DURING the trib, FOLLOWING our Rapture) will be killed. No. A great many will be, yes, but not ALL of them will be killed (I had provided something like 10-12 different types of passages ALL speaking of "STILL-LIVING" saints at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, that will ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies ["death" and "resurrection" not having been applied to them; yet they "SHALL NEVER DIE" because Jesus will be reigning, and He says so! lol]).

One such set of passages are "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" passages [aka the "G347" the "MEAL"], which IS the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth (see again Luke 12:35,36-37,38,40,42-44 [and its parallels], saying, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347]").

This means that, ALL saints who will have DIED [tho not all will have died] up to the point of His Second Coming to the earth, will have been "resurrected" IN TIME FOR them [us] to ALL be PRESENT AND ACCOUNTED FOR, to enjoy and experience "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [on the earth, where it will be located]. It is only "the MARRIAGE" itself, that takes place up in Heaven, prior to said "RETURN" [to the earth] (Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44, etc).

NO "saints" will miss out on "wedding cake"! [EVERY "saint" will be PRESENT to enjoy and experience the "MK age," see]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Oh, and I had wanted to point out one more thing...

where you'd said:

Who are the people who come out of the tribulation who cannot be numbered? Their answer is to create a kind of second class Christian known the tribulation saint.

It's not that they are "a kind of second class 'Christian/saint'"... it's that they "come to faith" at a different/distinct time-frame from when we in this present age have come to faith, and at a distinct time-frame from when OTHER 'saints' have come to faith (in the same way that WE [today / in this present age] are not called "OT saints" because we did not exist that that particular time-period [of the past / OT time period] to have "come to faith" back then, see). It's not a matter of "second class"... it's merely a matter of "when" they [that is, at what point in time and history they exist on the earth, and] come to faith.

Jesus explains this, in a way... when He refers to "the GUESTS [PLURAL]," He is not referring to "the BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]"... same for the fact that the "10 VIRGINS [PLURAL]" are ALSO not "the BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]," see. In our modern-day "wedding ceremonies" (though differing from theirs in that day, in significant ways I won't get into here), even our 5-year-old children can discern that the "[PLURAL] BRIDESMAIDS [/VIRGINS-PLURAL]" are NOT "the BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]".

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

...and don't forget that in that same chapter (Revelation 7), "the 144,000" of all "the tribes of the children of Israel [SINGULAR NATION]" that are listed there, are set in contradistinction to the "a great multitude... of ALL THE NATIONS [PLURAL]" (the ones not able to be numbered for the multitude of them)... why is this, when they are, both groups, "saved" persons?

I believe I know why, and the "pre-trib viewpoint" explains it snugly.


[btw, to be clear, neither of these ^ are "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ALL those "saved" in this present age [singular], Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence])]

 

[tanakh]

...and don't forget that in that same chapter (Revelation 7), "the 144,000" of all "the tribes of the children of Israel [SINGULAR NATION]" that are listed there, are set in contradistinction to the "a great multitude... of ALL THE NATIONS [PLURAL]" (the ones not able to be numbered for the multitude of them)... why is this, when they are, both groups, "saved" persons?

I believe I know why, and the "pre-trib viewpoint" explains it snugly.


[btw, to be clear, neither of these ^ are "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ALL those "saved" in this present age [singular], Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence])]

^ I would just like to mention here (although I have reasons I've present before about how I see His "wrath" starting at the FIRST Seal, at the START of the trib, when you compare the wording between 2Th2:7b-8a with that of Lam2:3-4 [see its "wrath" words there also]), I also see where 1 Thessalonians 1:10 is not exactly specifying what kind or whose "wrath," it just states, "[out-]from [ek] THE WRATH COMING" (that is, "coming" at a particular time-period, and not here stating a specified "wrath"... [I think it pertains to all the categories of it we see in Rev]):

"and to await His Son [out-]from [ek] the heavens, whom He raised out-from [ek] the dead--Jesus, the one delivering us [out-]from [ek] the wrath coming."


[along with 1Th5 also speaking of the fact that "God has not appointed US unto wrath..." (in the context of Paul's referring to "the Day of the Lord" and its ARRIVAL being like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" of a woman in labor... (it is not "ONE and DONE" as far as "PANGS" go... , but its ARRIVAL is as the INITAL birth PANG [SINGULAR], like Jesus spoke of...[in the PLURAL, of these])]

this is a typical reply only really to be expected. You must be the only Pre Trib enthusiast who doesnt believe that Paul
was talking about Gods wrath at the second coming. There is at least one person on site who hardly ever fails to quote this
part concerning Gods wrath as the reason for the Pre Trib Rapture as he believes it.


I could argue round in circles with you forever. I have compared plain scripture with scripture and what I have written is the result
of doing so. I leave others to be the judge of it.

 

[cv5]

The frequency of the word wrath being used isn't an indicator that the great tribulation is God's wrath. Christians are not appointed to wrath, rather it is a forgone conclusion that we will endure trials and tribulations.

Acts 14:22
"...where they strengthened the believers. They encouraged them to continue in the faith, reminding them that we must suffer many hardships to enter the Kingdom of God."

Please note that hardships are not damnation, definitively an example of God's wrath. The Bible is clear in it's distinction between the wrath of God and worldly persecution, hardhips, and tribulation.

Look up the Greek for Tribulation and compare it to contexts of wrath.

A question, if the great tribulation event is God's wrath then how are there armies of people available to fight the war of Armageddon as mentioned in Revelation?

If the great flood only spared 8 people in Noah's day then by comparison the great tribulation would hold no comparison. What I am positing is that the second coming of Christ will be like the great flood and no one will survive this time except God's elect. Matthew 24 compares the second coming of Christ to the great flood. Are you beginning to atleast see what I am trying to show you?

Christians are not appointed to wrath true. Because they have been raptured before God's wrath comes. Similar to Lot. And yes they are not appointed eternal punishment either.

 

[acts5_29]

In Matthew 13, Jesus gives TWO parables, both of which carry the same message: the parable of the weeds (24-30, 36-43), and the parable of the net (47-52). That is nice--and indeed, it is probably why Jesus needed to illustrate His point with TWO word pictures, not one--because if the meaning you get is contained within both parables, then that is probably Jesus' intended meaning. But if it is only contained in one, then you are probably going off on an tangent somewhere.

The gist of the parables is something along the lines of, "The rain falls equally on the righteous and the wicked." But in the end, the angels will come and sort them all out. They will not be sorted now--but in the end they will be. The reason why they are not sorted now is because--in the first parable--you will accidentally pull up some wheat if you try and pull the weeds now. In the second parable, if you try and throw out the bad fish while they are still in the net, you will end up ripping the net and lose some of the good fish.

These parables were told 2,000 years ago, so even if the sorting happened over the span of 7 years, that is all the end of the age to them. All this talk about resurrections, or something happening first is going off on a tangent, and not inherent to both parables. The only possible reference to tribulation would be that the good and the bad both have to share the same soil, the same net--and one can reasonably infer that that will have ramifications for how this life is going to look like. But that has nothing to do with a 7-year Tribulation at the end--that's the tribulation we have always faced for all time. Believers have always shared the same soil with the non-believing. If anything at all, it weakly suggests post-trib, because pre-trib suggests that believers and nonbelievers will NOT share the same soil for a period of 7 years.

 

[acts5_29]

Christians are not appointed to wrath true. Because they have been raptured before God's wrath comes. Similar to Lot. And yes they are not appointed eternal punishment either.

Being raptured (or dead...) is *A* way Christians can be spared God's wrath, but not the only way. As you illustrated, Lot was not raptured.