Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Enoch was justified by grace through faith, after which he walked with God, and was then translated to Heaven -- God's Heaven. The Bible clearly says the he did not "see" or experience death. That is how it will also be for the saints who are raptured. They will not experience death.

Enoch did not see the 2nd death. But yes the wages for sin are death, even for Enoch.

And as for your unmerited confidence on a future rapture or event please keep in mind Proverbs 27:1

Proverbs 27:1
Do not boast about tomorrow, for you do not know what a day may bring.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So then yes, Enoch was a sinner. And the wages for sin is death. So Enoch died, he died the 1st death.
What Enoch did not experience was the 2nd death.

2 Corinthians 5 -

13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is to God; or if we are sober-minded it is for you.
14 For the love of Christ compels us, having concluded this, that One has died for all, therefore all have died.
15 And He died for all that those living no longer should live to themselves, but to the One having died for them and having been raised again.

["And He died for ALL"... "that those living" (<--which is not "all")...]


...how so?



Romans 7 - [for those knowing law] -

1 Or are you ignorant brothers (for I speak to those knowing the law), that the law rules over the man for as long as the time he is alive?
2 For the married woman is bound by law to the living husband; but if the husband should die, she is cleared from the law of the husband.
3 So then, if she is to another man, the husband being alive, she will be called an adulteress; but if the husband should die, she is free from the law, so as for her not to be an adulteress, having been to another man.
4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have been put to death to the Law through [/by means of] the body of Christ, for you to belong to Another, to the One having been raised out from the dead, so that we should bear fruit to God.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Proverbs 27:1
Do not boast about tomorrow, for you do not know what a day may bring.

There is no need to boast about the Rapture or anything else. The truth is presented from Scripture, and people are welcome to believe it or not believe it. The Bible already tells us that there will be scoffers in the last days saying "Where is the promise of His coming?" (2 Peter 3:3,4).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The Bible already tells us that there will be scoffers in the last days saying "Where is the promise of His coming?" (2 Peter 3:3,4).

And what an interesting passage that is:

3 first knowing this, that in the last days scoffers will come with scoffing, following according to their own evil desires,
4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For from the time that the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.”
5 For this is concealed from them willingly, that heavens existed long ago and the earth, having been composed out of water and through water, by the word of God,
6 through which the world at that time perished, having been deluged with water.
7 But by the same word now the heavens and the earth exist, having been stored up for fire, being kept unto the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

The Day of the Lord
8 But beloved, do not let this one thing be hidden from you [/be not ignorant OF THIS ONE THING], that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.


[Hosea 5:14-6:3 (not "a singular 24-hr 'DAY' / 'DAYS'"); Exodus 31:13,17 "A SIGN" (re: the 7th day / sabbath); Hebrews 4:9 "sabbatismos"]

 

[KJV1611]

Yes, of course, but this does not address what I wrote.

You here are saying Enoch needed the sacrifice of Christ to enter heaven.

So then yes, Enoch was a sinner. And the wages for sin is death. So Enoch died, he died the 1st death.

What Enoch did not experience was the 2nd death.

Enoch didn't experience ANY death, God took Enoch out of his body just prior to his death. God gave the example of Enoch so that we would know what happens to us just prior to our death. The same thing that happened to Enoch happened to every single Old Testament saint, but God chose Enoch to illustrate this process because he was the 7th from Adam but he was not the only one to experience that.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

2 Corinthians 5 -

13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is to God; or if we are sober-minded it is for you.
14 For the love of Christ compels us, having concluded this, that One has died for all, therefore all have died.
15 And He died for all that those living no longer should live to themselves, but to the One having died for them and having been raised again.

["And He died for ALL"... "that those living" (<--which is not "all")...]


...how so?



Romans 7 - [for those knowing law] -

1 Or are you ignorant brothers (for I speak to those knowing the law), that the law rules over the man for as long as the time he is alive?
2 For the married woman is bound by law to the living husband; but if the husband should die, she is cleared from the law of the husband.
3 So then, if she is to another man, the husband being alive, she will be called an adulteress; but if the husband should die, she is free from the law, so as for her not to be an adulteress, having been to another man.
4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have been put to death to the Law through [/by means of] the body of Christ, for you to belong to Another, to the One having been raised out from the dead, so that we should bear fruit to God.

The wages of sin is dead. 1st death and 2nd death. But those in Christ are saved from the second death.

 

[cv5]

Yes, of course, but this does not address what I wrote.

You here are saying Enoch needed the sacrifice of Christ to enter heaven.

So then yes, Enoch was a sinner. And the wages for sin is death. So Enoch died, he died the 1st death.

What Enoch did not experience was the 2nd death.

You are one mixed up person. The wages of sin is death for the unsaved. Only for the unsaved.

Matt 22:32
‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

There is no need to boast about the Rapture or anything else. The truth is presented from Scripture, and people are welcome to believe it or not believe it. The Bible already tells us that there will be scoffers in the last days saying "Where is the promise of His coming?" (2 Peter 3:3,4).

Oh He will come, but how He comes you or I don't know.

 

[cv5]

Enoch didn't experience ANY death, God took Enoch out of his body just prior to his death. God gave the example of Enoch so that we would know what happens to us just prior to our death. The same thing that happened to Enoch happened to every single Old Testament saint, but God chose Enoch to illustrate this process because he was the 7th from Adam but he was not the only one to experience that.

Out of his body? There are a lot of heresies and heretics that start at that point.
As for the rest of the post, no, you are dead wrong yet again. Enoch's bodily rapture was a unique case, As the Bible makes clear.

 

[KJV1611]

Oh He will come, but how He comes you or I don't know.

Look at the death of Stephen, that's how he comes.

 

[KJV1611]

Out of his body? There are a lot of heresies and heretics that start at that point.
As for the rest of the post, no, you are dead wrong yet again. Enoch's bodily rapture was a unique case, As the Bible makes clear.

You're not calling me dead wrong your calling the bible dead wrong where it says that it is appointed unto man once to die. You don't believe that... I don't know why, your beliefs puzzle me. It's like you pick and choose the verses that you want to believe and toss out the ones you don't believe.

 

[KJV1611]

And what an interesting passage that is:

3 first knowing this, that in the last days scoffers will come with scoffing, following according to their own evil desires,
4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For from the time that the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.”
5 For this is concealed from them willingly, that heavens existed long ago and the earth, having been composed out of water and through water, by the word of God,
6 through which the world at that time perished, having been deluged with water.
7 But by the same word now the heavens and the earth exist, having been stored up for fire, being kept unto the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

The Day of the Lord
8 But beloved, do not let this one thing be hidden from you [/be not ignorant OF THIS ONE THING], that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.


[Hosea 5:14-6:3 (not "a singular 24-hr 'DAY' / 'DAYS'"); Exodus 31:13,17 "A SIGN" (re: the 7th day / sabbath); Hebrews 4:9 "sabbatismos"]

The irony of the whole thing is that you're the scoffer. Jesus is appearing to believers at the time of their death and taking them to heaven every day since the time of Enoch and before Enoch. From the time that the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation. Believers like Enoch are being translated to heaven just prior to their deaths... but you're helping people be ignorant to this by cloaking it in a false rapture theory.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The irony of the whole thing is that you're the scoffer. Jesus is appearing to believers at the time of their death and taking them to heaven every day since the time of Enoch and before Enoch. From the time that the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation. Believers like Enoch are being translated to heaven just prior to their deaths... but you're helping people be ignorant to this by cloaking it in a false rapture theory.

In one of the passages Paul is speaking of our "SNATCH"/harpagēsometha , he says, "the DEAD in Christ shall [future tense] rise FIRST" (you do not agree with what the Holy Spirit wrote through Paul's pen, that is your choice), before he goes on to say, "Then [epeita - 'ONLY THEN'] WE [PLURAL] which ARE ALIVE and remain unto the coming of the Lord" (THIS part is speaking of those of us/of 'the Church which is His body' who will NOT have DIED prior to that point in time, but which you are wanting to change this into saying, "when your body is getting ready to DIE and Jesus is coming for your own [INDIVIDUAL] spirit/soul [but leaving your body to bury-dead] to "change" you [INDIVIDUALLY] with "glorified body" at that time [distinct from when other saints/believers will DIE *INDIVIDUALLY* and be "caught up" DISTINCTLY/INDIVIDUALLY/SEPARATELY"]," then I must say that this idea does NOT agree with what Paul is actually conveying, but completely disregards the grammar, the wording, and the understanding of just what [/who] is "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" and WHEN it came into existence--Ephesians 1:20-23.

But you are free to believe as you wish.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For from the time that the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.”






["correctly apportion the word of truth"]


["the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" - Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence) ; "HAVING BEEN CREATED *IN* Christ Jesus"... "so that He might CREATE *IN* HIMSELF the two into ONE NEW MAN" ]

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Look at the death of Stephen, that's how he comes.

True.

 

[KJV1611]

True.

That process is what they are calling the rapture.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

KJV1611 said:
Look at the death of Stephen, that's how he comes.

True.

Of Stephen, in v.60, "he fell asleep [G2837]"... same word used of BOTH of the following:

--those who died BEFORE the Cross: Matt27:52 "many bodies which slept [G2837]..." ; John 11:11 "Our friend Lazarus sleepeth [G2837 - but verse 14 clarifies "Lazarus IS DEAD"]; 2 Peter 3:4 "since the fathers fell asleep [G2837]; and

--those who died/die AFTER the Cross: 1Cor7:39 "but if her husband be dead [G2837]"; 1Cor15:6 "but some are fallen asleep [G2837]; 1Cor15:18 "they... which are fallen asleep [G2837] in Christ..."

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Notes on "ENOCH" (to go alongside the commentary excerpt I put yesterday, by a different person) -

ENOCH:

--ONE MAN

--taken BEFORE the flood judgment unfolded upon the earth

--whose NAME means: "dedicated" (as in H2585 - Chanok/Enoch - Gen5:21-22; and similar to the "H2596 - chanak" word in the following verse), or meaning: "initiated"/"initiating":

Deut20:5 - "Furthermore, the officers are to address the army, saying, “Has any man built a new house and not dedicated [H2596 - chanak] it? Let him return home, or he may die in battle and another man dedicate [H2596 - chanak] it." [under the section of: "The Laws of Warfare"/"The Laws in Time of War" Deut20]


--whose name also means: "initiated/initiating" or "to train up" ('teaching') [note Paul's word in Phil 4:12 "*G3453" (see below, at bottom)]; BDB- "Aramaic חֲנַךְ dedicate, חַנֵּיךְ as Late Hebrew; Ethiopic II. perceive, understand (Di108, initiatio is loan-word Id.ib.))"; "Definition - to initiate into the mysteries, hence to instruct"

--Enoch, see under #2 here: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/lexImage.cfm?tv=1592259145869&a

--Enoch ('the seventh from Adam') "prophesied" (Jude 1:14) something in particular, "Behold, the Lord cometh... to execute judgment..." (but he did not himself experience it, he was "translated" prior to that "deluge judgment")

--is the seventh name in the listing of ten names that spell out a sentence in Genesis 5 (From Adam to Noah [with "Noah" meaning "rest" or "comfort," for example] the sentence itself pointing to Christ)


[ *G3453 - "3453 [e] (1x) - memyēmai / mueó -
μεμύημαι - I have learned the secret - V-RIM/P-1S" -
"Definition: to initiate into the mysteries, to instruct
Usage: I initiate, instruct; pass: I am disciplined, learn (a lesson)" ]

 

[cv5]

Notes on "ENOCH" (to go alongside the commentary excerpt I put yesterday, by a different person) -

ENOCH:

--ONE MAN

--taken BEFORE the flood judgment unfolded upon the earth

--whose NAME means: "dedicated" (as in H2585 - Chanok/Enoch - Gen5:21-22; and similar to the "H2596 - chanak" word in the following verse), or meaning: "initiated"/"initiating":

Deut20:5 - "Furthermore, the officers are to address the army, saying, “Has any man built a new house and not dedicated [H2596 - chanak] it? Let him return home, or he may die in battle and another man dedicate [H2596 - chanak] it." [under the section of: "The Laws of Warfare"/"The Laws in Time of War" Deut20]


--whose name also means: "initiated/initiating" or "to train up" ('teaching') [note Paul's word in Phil 4:12 "*G3453" (see below, at bottom)]; BDB- "Aramaic חֲנַךְ dedicate, חַנֵּיךְ as Late Hebrew; Ethiopic II. perceive, understand (Di108, initiatio is loan-word Id.ib.))"; "Definition - to initiate into the mysteries, hence to instruct"

--Enoch, see under #2 here: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/lexImage.cfm?tv=1592259145869&a

--Enoch ('the seventh from Adam') "prophesied" (Jude 1:14) something in particular, "Behold, the Lord cometh... to execute judgment..." (but he did not himself experience it, he was "translated" prior to that "deluge judgment")

--is the seventh name in the listing of ten names that spell out a sentence in Genesis 5 (From Adam to Noah [with "Noah" meaning "rest" or "comfort," for example] the sentence itself pointing to Christ)


[ *G3453 - "3453 [e] (1x) - memyēmai / mueó -
μεμύημαι - I have learned the secret - V-RIM/P-1S" -
"Definition: to initiate into the mysteries, to instruct
Usage: I initiate, instruct; pass: I am disciplined, learn (a lesson)" ]

Adam --------- Man
Seth ---------Appointed
Enosh ---------Mortal
Kenan ---------Sorrow
Mahalalel ---------The Blessed God
Jared ----------Shall come down
Enoch ----------Teaching
Methuselah ----------His death shall bring
Lamech -----------The despairing
Noah ----------- Rest, or comfort

 

[KJV1611]

Of Stephen, in v.60, "he fell asleep [G2837]"... same word used of BOTH of the following:

--those who died BEFORE the Cross: Matt27:52 "many bodies which slept [G2837]..." ; John 11:11 "Our friend Lazarus sleepeth [G2837 - but verse 14 clarifies "Lazarus IS DEAD"]; 2 Peter 3:4 "since the fathers fell asleep [G2837]; and

--those who died/die AFTER the Cross: 1Cor7:39 "but if her husband be dead [G2837]"; 1Cor15:6 "but some are fallen asleep [G2837]; 1Cor15:18 "they... which are fallen asleep [G2837] in Christ..."

What point are making here TDW? I think you agree that sleep is another word death. Stephens body died but Stephen left his body prior to it dying the same as Enoch left his body before his body died. Jesus said if you believe in him, you will never die and that’s true for those before and after Christ.