Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians

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cv5

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What point are making here TDW? I think you agree that sleep is another word death. Stephens body died but Stephen left his body prior to it dying the same as Enoch left his body before his body died. Jesus said if you believe in him, you will never die and that’s true for those before and after Christ.
Stephen went to sleep and they buried him. Enoch did not go to sleep and they did not bury him.

I am always bewildered at how you can fail to comprehend the simplest of concepts.
 
Mar 26, 2020
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This is a special case. Most will not see a vision of Jesus before dying and will remain asleep until the resurrection.
My maternal great grandfather was a firm believer and when he was dying in his bed, my mother said he sat bolt upright and said, 'The Governor is here' and then sank back down and died. He always referred to Jesus as 'The Governor'.

I've heard about this from others too; that when their sister/mother died and they were firm believers, they saw and acknowledged Jesus as their souls were leaving their bodies. My podiatrist actually saw his sister's soul leave her physical body.

I don't think it is a 'vision' they see; I think it is really the Lord Jesus.
 
Mar 26, 2020
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As for the Resurrection, I believe this is a step, either forward or back depending on the individual, in the evolution of the whole human race "..some to eternal life and some to eternal shame" and that it happens as described in the bible "in the twinkling of an eye", i.e. at (pretty well) the same time for all.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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[to Post #702:) ] Yes, Paul in 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 (esp vv.2-4) is speaking of a couple of things:

--"UNCLOTHED" -- to be apart from the body, for a time, UPON DEATH of the believer

--"CLOTHED UPON" -- to be immediately "clothed upon" with our glorified bodies APART from having to DIE first (this takes place at the Rapture, for the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" part of "the Church which is His body")



Paul is saying we are "earnestly desiring" to be "CLOTHED UPON" (be "changed" without having to DIE first; i.e. the experience at our Rapture);
but that he is "WILLING" to die, if the Lord so wills it (nobody is "earnestly desiring" to have to die), because either way, the outcome is to "be present with the Lord" (a WONDERFUL THING!)

And yes, Paul is disclosing "doctrine" here (which pertains to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY") and not merely "wishful thinking," as some are suggesting.

"... KNOWING that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord... We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

--V.4 "...CLOTHED UPON, that MORTALITY [still-living persons being referred to here] might be SWALLOWED UP of LIFE" (not "die"/"death" here, in this phrase--this is referring to the "change" which will occur at the time of "our Rapture," for the "still-living" part of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," specifically, in this phrase).
 
Nov 23, 2013
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You are one mixed up person. The wages of sin is death for the unsaved. Only for the unsaved.

Matt 22:32
‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”
If God is the God of the living then why do you keep preaching that God's people die?
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Stephen went to sleep and they buried him. Enoch did not go to sleep and they did not bury him.

I am always bewildered at how you can fail to comprehend the simplest of concepts.
I'm amazed at how you FAIL to take the WHOLE council of God to prop up your false doctrines. "These all died!"

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

The bold, underlined red text is the part you are throwing out the window as if it doesn't even exist. If this was in a court of law you would be convicted of PERJURY. Listen up cv5, you will be in The Court of Law standing before a righteous JUDGE explaining EXACTLY why you said the EXACT OPPOSITE of Hebrews 11:13.

Enoch's body DIED just like every single body past, present and future will die. It is appointed unto man once to DIE. Enoch did not SEE death, he was translated just like every other believer in Christ is translated just prior to this body dying. God is not the God of the DEAD! God's people DO NOT experience death.

Why is your rapture heresy more important than the word of God?
 
Nov 23, 2013
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[to Post #702:) ] Yes, Paul in 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 (esp vv.2-4) is speaking of a couple of things:

--"UNCLOTHED" -- to be apart from the body, for a time, UPON DEATH of the believer

--"CLOTHED UPON" -- to be immediately "clothed upon" with our glorified bodies APART from having to DIE first (this takes place at the Rapture, for the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" part of "the Church which is His body")



Paul is saying we are "earnestly desiring" to be "CLOTHED UPON" (be "changed" without having to DIE first; i.e. the experience at our Rapture);
but that he is "WILLING" to die, if the Lord so wills it (nobody is "earnestly desiring" to have to die), because either way, the outcome is to "be present with the Lord" (a WONDERFUL THING!)

And yes, Paul is disclosing "doctrine" here (which pertains to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY") and not merely "wishful thinking," as some are suggesting.

"... KNOWING that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord... We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

--V.4 "...CLOTHED UPON, that MORTALITY [still-living persons being referred to here] might be SWALLOWED UP of LIFE" (not "die"/"death" here, in this phrase--this is referring to the "change" which will occur at the time of "our Rapture," for the "still-living" part of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," specifically, in this phrase).
Absolute nonsense. Paul doesn't say anything remotely close to "to be apart from the body for a time". In fact he says the exact OPPOSITE of that.

2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

You're view puts a believer in a temporary state of NAKEDNESS standing before God when we die. You seriously can't believe that's true.

2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Mortality is a function of this EARTHLY BODY, when we shed this earthly body, mortality IS SWALLOWED UP by eternal life. I'm trying to drive this point home to you, so again, mortality is a function of this EARTHLY BODY, when we shed this earthly body, mortality IS SWALLOWED UP by eternal life.

They say things said three times sinks in to the subconscious so.... Mortality is a function of this EARTHLY BODY. Once a believer sheds this earthly body, mortality IS SWALLOWED UP by eternal life. Mortality is DONE, FINISHED, OVER, SWALLOWED UP, DOESN'T EXIST ANYMORE.

Believers DO NOT DIE! We shed this body that is bound by MORTALITY just PRIOR to the death of this mortal body, then mortality is SWALLOWED UP. Then we will be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye and we will be CAUGHT UP together with the DEAD IN CHRIST that have been in heaven since the resurrection Christ and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Therefore COMFORT one another with these words and stop believing in the heresy of the FALSE RAPTURE... get on board with the REAL RAPTURE. These are true words of comfort for every believer, not just the heretical dispensationalist, futurist.
 

cv5

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If God is the God of the living then why do you keep preaching that God's people die?
Good grief man it is you that keeps preaching that people (Christians) die!
I preach that they fall asleep. Most of them not all of them.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Good grief man it is you that keeps preaching that people (Christians) die!
I preach that they fall asleep. Most of them not all of them.
Sleep is a euphemism for death, they both mean exactly the same thing so you saying they fell asleep is EXACTLY the same as saying they died. But they didn't die, they were translated just prior to death just like Enoch was and Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all of the other people who believed in Christ.

Why do you find that so hard to grasp? The bible says Enoch died, but Enoch never saw that death, how many are options are there to explain this? Ignoring the verse that says Enoch died IS NOT an option.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Absolute nonsense. Paul doesn't say anything remotely close to "to be apart from the body for a time". In fact he says the exact OPPOSITE of that.
2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
You're view puts a believer in a temporary state of NAKEDNESS standing before God when we die. You seriously can't believe that's true.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Mortality is a function of this EARTHLY BODY, when we shed this earthly body, mortality IS SWALLOWED UP by eternal life. I'm trying to drive this point home to you, so again, mortality is a function of this EARTHLY BODY, when we shed this earthly body, mortality IS SWALLOWED UP by eternal life.
They say things said three times sinks in to the subconscious so.... Mortality is a function of this EARTHLY BODY. Once a believer sheds this earthly body, mortality IS SWALLOWED UP by eternal life. Mortality is DONE, FINISHED, OVER, SWALLOWED UP, DOESN'T EXIST ANYMORE.
Believers DO NOT DIE! We shed this body that is bound by MORTALITY just PRIOR to the death of this mortal body, then mortality is SWALLOWED UP. Then we will be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye and we will be CAUGHT UP together with the DEAD IN CHRIST that have been in heaven since the resurrection Christ and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Therefore COMFORT one another with these words and stop believing in the heresy of the FALSE RAPTURE... get on board with the REAL RAPTURE. These are true words of comfort for every believer, not just the heretical dispensationalist, futurist.
Nope.

Paul is making the same point here in 2Cor5:2-4 that the following passage is speaking to -->(about "THIS MORTAL must *put on* IMMORTALITY [v.53b]" ...[and speaking of the same thing in the same 1Cor15 text-->] "and [when] THIS MORTAL shall have *put on* IMMORTALITY [v.54b]") <--which corresponds with the part of "the Church which is His body" that v.51 had just spoken of, saying, "we shall NOT ALL *SLEEP*, but we SHALL ALL be *CHANGED*..." (but whereas vv.53a and 54a and 52a were speaking of the part of "the Church which is His body" who WILL HAVE *died* [*sleep / slept*] prior to the point in time being spoken of, in this text--i.e. "this CORRUPTIBLE must put on INCORRUPTION" [<--speaking here of "the DEAD in Christ"--those who WILL HAVE died prior to the point in time being spoken of in this text]).





But you [instead] are saying, yes we shall all "sleep / die" [coz our bodies will ALL die], but Paul is saying the OPPOSITE of what you are suggesting, see. ;)
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Nope.

Paul is making the same point here in 2Cor5:2-4 that the following passage is speaking to -->(about "THIS MORTAL must *put on* IMMORTALITY [v.53b]" ...[and speaking of the same thing in the same 1Cor15 text-->] "and [when] THIS MORTAL shall have *put on* IMMORTALITY [v.54b]") <--which corresponds with the part of "the Church which is His body" that v.51 had just spoken of, saying, "we shall NOT ALL *SLEEP*, but we SHALL ALL be *CHANGED*..." (but whereas vv.53a and 54a and 52a were speaking of the part of "the Church which is His body" who WILL HAVE *died* [*sleep / slept*] prior to the point in time being spoken of, in this text--i.e. "this CORRUPTIBLE must put on INCORRUPTION" [<--speaking here of "the DEAD in Christ"--those who WILL HAVE died prior to the point in time being spoken of in this text]).





But you [instead] are saying, yes we shall all "sleep / die" [coz our bodies will ALL die], but Paul is saying the OPPOSITE of what you are suggesting, see. ;)
When a Christian dies is he mortal or immortal at that point?
 

TheDivineWatermark

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When a Christian dies is he mortal or immortal at that point?
Well, besides the point that "we SHALL NOT ALL *sleep/die* like Paul just said in 1Cor15:51, I'll repeat what I just said... for the third time ;)


--re: the "we which are ALIVE AND REMAIN UNTO"-- THIS part applies (as well as 2Cor5:4c):
"THIS MORTAL must *put on* IMMORTALITY [v.53b]" ...[...<snip>...] "and [when] THIS MORTAL shall have *put on* IMMORTALITY [v.54b]") <--which corresponds with the part of "the Church which is His body" that v.51 had just spoken of, saying, "we shall NOT ALL *SLEEP*,



--re: "the DEAD in Christ" (who have DIED or will have DIED / "slept" / "fallen asleep in Jesus"), who "shall rise first":
"THIS CORRUPTIBLE must put on INCORRUPTION" ..."and when THIS CORRUPTIBLE shall have *put on* INCORRUPTION"
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Well, besides the point that "we SHALL NOT ALL *sleep/die* like Paul just said in 1Cor15:51, I'll repeat what I just said... for the third time ;)


--re: the "we which are ALIVE AND REMAIN UNTO"-- THIS part applies (as well as 2Cor5:4):





--re: "the DEAD in Christ" (who have DIED or will have DIED / "slept" / "fallen asleep in Jesus"), who "shall rise first":
You wont answer because you know that when a Christian dies he becomes an IMMORTAL BEING which means this mortal has put on immortality and this totally blows your rapture heresy away. I'm beginning to loose respect for you guys, you're not interested in the truth, you're only interested in promoting your heresies. SMH
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Jesus said, "25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead [/even if he should DIE (subjunctive- "S")], yet shall he live: "

https://biblehub.com/text/john/11-25.htm [<--read the words here carefully]


So, you'd asked "what my point" was on the other post (#700), last page, it was to address your previous notion of the difference before and after the Cross ["before=they died" but "after=they do not die" (your previous point, earlier in the thread)]

https://christianchat.com/threads/a...ime-among-some-christians.192730/post-4287533
 

TheDivineWatermark

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You wont answer because you know that when a Christian dies he becomes an IMMORTAL BEING which means this mortal has put on immortality and this totally blows your rapture heresy away.
I did just answer.

"THIS MORTAL" putting on "IMMORTALITY" speaks of the "we SHALL NOT ALL *DIE [/sleep]*" / "we which are ALIVE AND REMAIN unto..." [-part]

but

"THIS CORRUPTIBLE/CORRUPTION" putting on "INCORRUPTION" speaks specifically of the ones that WILL HAVE "DIED/slept/sleep" [-part]


I'm beginning to loose respect for you guys, you're not interested in the truth, you're only interested in promoting your heresies. SMH
What is Paul saying in 1Cor15:51 "we SHALL NOT ALL SLEEP" ?? (at the particular point-in-time [singular point-in-time] that v.52 is specifically addressing)
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Jesus said, "25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead [/even if he should DIE (subjunctive- "S")], yet shall he live: "

https://biblehub.com/text/john/11-25.htm [<--read the words here carefully]


So, you'd asked "what my point" was on the other post (#700), last page, it was to address your previous notion of the difference before and after the Cross ["before=they died" but "after=they do not die" (your previous point, earlier in the thread)]

https://christianchat.com/threads/a...ime-among-some-christians.192730/post-4287533
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Old Testament saints that died in Christ. Though they were dead, they rose with Christ and lived again.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Those that are alive and remain AFTER THEIR RESURRECTION shall NEVER DIE.
 

cv5

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I'm amazed at how you FAIL to take the WHOLE council of God to prop up your false doctrines. "These all died!"

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

The bold, underlined red text is the part you are throwing out the window as if it doesn't even exist. If this was in a court of law you would be convicted of PERJURY. Listen up cv5, you will be in The Court of Law standing before a righteous JUDGE explaining EXACTLY why you said the EXACT OPPOSITE of Hebrews 11:13.

Enoch's body DIED just like every single body past, present and future will die. It is appointed unto man once to DIE. Enoch did not SEE death, he was translated just like every other believer in Christ is translated just prior to this body dying. God is not the God of the DEAD! God's people DO NOT experience death.

Why is your rapture heresy more important than the word of God?
You are fixated on Hebrews 11:13.
Nope.

Paul is making the same point here in 2Cor5:2-4 that the following passage is speaking to -->(about "THIS MORTAL must *put on* IMMORTALITY [v.53b]" ...[and speaking of the same thing in the same 1Cor15 text-->] "and [when] THIS MORTAL shall have *put on* IMMORTALITY [v.54b]") <--which corresponds with the part of "the Church which is His body" that v.51 had just spoken of, saying, "we shall NOT ALL *SLEEP*, but we SHALL ALL be *CHANGED*..." (but whereas vv.53a and 54a and 52a were speaking of the part of "the Church which is His body" who WILL HAVE *died* [*sleep / slept*] prior to the point in time being spoken of, in this text--i.e. "this CORRUPTIBLE must put on INCORRUPTION" [<--speaking here of "the DEAD in Christ"--those who WILL HAVE died prior to the point in time being spoken of in this text]).





But you [instead] are saying, yes we shall all "sleep / die" [coz our bodies will ALL die], but Paul is saying the OPPOSITE of what you are suggesting, see. ;)
oikétérion: a habitation
https://biblehub.com/greek/3613.htm

This particular term used twice also supports the fallen angels theory.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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oikétérion: a habitation
https://biblehub.com/greek/3613.htm

This particular term used twice also supports the fallen angels theory.
I'm not on the same page with you here, sorry bro. :D

[I have laid out my reasons in past posts, and don't have the time to do so again, nor do I think we should in this thread = ) ]
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Old Testament saints that died in Christ. Though they were dead, they rose with Christ and lived again.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Those that are alive and remain AFTER THEIR RESURRECTION shall NEVER DIE.
Jesus was saying two things here... He said:

--"I AM the Resurrection" to address the part "he that believeth in Me, even if he should DIE, yet shall he live"; and

--"and [I AM] the LIFE" to address the part "he that LIVETH and believeth in Me, SHALL NEVER DIE"



[then, recall that those saying "the resurrection IS PAST" is not a good thing to be doing, thus "overthrowing the faith of some" and "have erred from the truth"--... "who have gone astray concerning the truth, asserting the resurrection already to have taken place; and they are overthrowing the faith of some." 2Tim2:18; "Resurrection" meaning "to stand again [on the earth]"--that is, IN a BODY / BODILY]
 
Nov 23, 2013
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I did just answer.

"THIS MORTAL" putting on "IMMORTALITY" speaks of the "we SHALL NOT ALL *DIE [/sleep]*" / "we which are ALIVE AND REMAIN unto..." [-part]

but

"THIS CORRUPTIBLE/CORRUPTION" putting on "INCORRUPTION" speaks specifically of the ones that WILL HAVE "DIED/slept/sleep" [-part]




What is Paul saying in 1Cor15:51 "we SHALL NOT ALL SLEEP" ?? (at the particular point-in-time [singular point-in-time] that v.52 is specifically addressing)
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Flesh and blood CAN NOT inherit the kingdom of God and for that reason, the Old Testament saints went to the OLD HEAVEN aka Abraham's bosom because Christ had not PREPARED A PLACE for them, the place he prepared is the NEW HEAVEN.
Isa_65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
All believers will not die like the Old Tesatament saints who died and went to the OLD HEAVEN, but believers that are alive and remain AFTER Christ prepared a place for us (The New Heaven), we shall all be changed.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
We will be changed in a moment, at the last trump (the NEW TESTAMENT, the voice of Christ), the first trump being the Old Testament. When the last trump sounds (the voice of Christ walking this earth), the OLD TESTAMENT SAINTS, the DEAD IN CHRIST in Abraham's bosom shall be raised INCORRUPTIBLE and we will be clothed with the righteousness of Christ.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
For this corruptible has put on the RIGHTEOUSNESS of Christ. And we have put on IMMORTALITY because believers in Christ NEVER DIE. We go straight from this body, straight into the NEW HEAVEN with an IMMORTAL BODY.

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
So now DEATH is swallowed up in victory, BELIEVERS NEVER DIE. Believers are translated from this body straight into heaven JUST PRIOR to the death of our mortal bodies.

I don't have time to proof read this so hopefully there aren't too many errors.