"Avenge me! Avenge me!"

[MattforJesus]

The truth is that is the Old Testament,and God allowed Israel to fight to protect their nation,and the truth,and put down the wicked who were physically cruel,and perverted people from the truth,and no other nation is able to do that,and if God allows it to happen,it does not come from Him directly,but He allows the evil spirits to stir up people to take them down.

Isa 31:4 For thus hath the LORD spoken unto me, Like as the lion and the young lion roaring on his prey, when a multitude of shepherds is called forth against him, he will not be afraid of their voice, nor abase himself for the noise of them: so shall the LORD of hosts come down to fight for mount Zion, and for the hill thereof.
Isa 31:5 As birds flying, so will the LORD of hosts defend Jerusalem; defending also he will deliver it; and passing over he will preserve it.

God still allows Israel to fight physically as fighter pilots pave the way for the win in the six day war,which they took control of Jerusalem.

No other nation has the right to fight physically but Israel,and if they do it is not coming from God,and if He allows it to happen,it is coming from them.

Jas 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?

Pro 24:17 Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth:
Pro 24:18 Lest the LORD see it, and it displease him, and he turn away his wrath from him.

Jesus said be harmless as doves,turn the other cheek,do not fear what they can do to the body,but can do no more,feed and clothe your enemies,bless them that curse you,and do good to them that hate you,and pray for them that despitefully use you.

We never ask God to avenge us for we want no harm to come upon anybody,and loving people is the fulfilling of the law.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

But in heaven when they are united with Jesus they can make such a request.

Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

 

[samuel23]

Good topic, are we to roll over and become a doormat for those who want to walk on us? I have a question, except for the time of the cross(something that was necessary), did Jesus EVER roll over and become a doormat for those who wanted to walk all over Him? Actually Jesus NEVER rolled over and allowed Himself to be a doormat(except for the time of the cross).

 

[Depleted]

Take it seriously, but do not take it literally, but spiritually. Because there was a huge shift from material to spiritual reality when Christ came.

If you will take the OT literally and then read the NT literally, you will get many contradictions like "hate your enemy" in the OT vs "love your enemy" in the NT.

Don't take it literally? Oh boy! You've got my dad's religion. And that's not Christianity.

 

[Desertsrose]

Question: "What is imprecatory prayer?"

Answer: First of all, let’s define imprecatory prayer. To imprecate means “to invoke evil upon or curse” one’s enemies. King David, the psalmist most associated with imprecatory verses such as Psalm 55:15, 69:28, and 109:8, often used phrases like, “may their path be dark and slippery, with the angel of the LORD pursuing them” (Psalm 35:6) and “O God, break the teeth in their mouths; tear out the fangs of the young lions, O LORD!” (Psalm 58:6).

Psalms 7, 35, 55, 58, 59, 69, 109, and 139 were written by David to ask God to bring judgment upon his enemies. (The other two imprecatory psalms, 79 and 137, were written by Asaph and an unknown psalmist.) These prayers were written not so much to exact revenge upon one’s enemies, but rather to emphasize God’s abhorrence of evil, His sovereignty over all mankind, and His divine protection of His chosen people. Many of these prayers were prophetic and could be seen taking place later in the New Testament in actual historical events.

When David prayed for God to shatter the teeth of his enemies, likening them to young lions pursuing him to his death, he was making the point that God is holy, righteous, and just, and He will ultimately judge the wicked for the evil they do. Jesus quoted some of the imprecatory psalms during His earthly ministry. In John 15:25, Jesus quotes Psalm 35:19 and 69:4. Paul also quoted an imprecatory prayer in Romans 11:9–10, which is a quote of Psalm 69:22–23. Since Jesus and Paul quoted verses from these imprecatory psalms, it proves those psalms were inspired by God and counters any allegation that they were sinful or selfish prayers of revenge.

Using imprecatory prayers from the Psalms today should only be done against our spiritual enemies (Ephesians 6:12). Praying imprecations on human foes is unjustifiable, as it would require taking these prayers out of context. In the New Testament, Jesus exhorts us to pray for our enemies (Matthew 5:44–48; Luke 6:27–38), but praying for their death or for bad things to happen to them isn’t what He meant. Instead, we are to pray for their salvation first and foremost, and then for God’s will to be done. There's no greater blessing than a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and that’s what Jesus means by praying for and blessing those who curse us.

Praying in that manner allows God to work in our own lives to soften our hearts toward our enemies so that we’ll have compassion on them for their eternal destiny, and to remove bitterness and anger from our hearts. Praying for God’s will to be done means we agree with God and are submitting ourselves to His divine sovereignty, despite not always understanding perfectly what He’s doing in a particular situation. And it means we have given up the idea that we know best and instead are now relying on and trusting in God to work His will. If a personal wrong has truly been done to us, we seek God in prayer about it, and then leave room for God’s judgment and trust Him to do what is best. That is the way to be at peace with God and all men (Romans 12:17-21).

https://www.gotquestions.org/imprecatory-prayer.html

 

[trofimus]

Don't take it literally? Oh boy! You've got my dad's religion. And that's not Christianity.

Really? So what is Christianity? To hate your enemy (OT) or to love your enemy (NT)?

 

[samuel23]

Sometimes I think we take the forgiveness of those who have done wrong a little too far. In the stories of forgiveness that Jesus gave, the person who sinned against another always went to that person and asked for forgiveness. If a person ask for forgiveness then we are required to give that forgiveness. What we are being taught today is that if someone burns out house down, shoots our dog, beats our child to death, and then laughs in our face, we have to immediately say, I forgive you. I do not really find that in the bible. How about the places in the bible that say, whosoever sins you retain are retained? Paul mentioned a person by name who had caused him and others in the Christian faith a lot of trouble, and Paul asked that God bring judgment on him according to his works. I don't want to leave the wrong impression, as a practice I believe in forgiving people, however I do believe much of what is taught today has taken it a step beyond what is in the bible. We need to remember that vengeance was actually commanded by God at one point because it is justice. When Paul said to do good to those who wrong you because by so doing you will heap coals of fire on their head, he was not using a metaphor, he was saying that because you take no revenge that God will take more revenge.

 

[Willie-T]

Sometimes I think we take the forgiveness of those who have done wrong a little too far. In the stories of forgiveness that Jesus gave, the person who sinned against another always went to that person and asked for forgiveness. If a person ask for forgiveness then we are required to give that forgiveness. What we are being taught today is that if someone burns out house down, shoots our dog, beats our child to death, and then laughs in our face, we have to immediately say, I forgive you. I do not really find that in the bible. How about the places in the bible that say, whosoever sins you retain are retained? Paul mentioned a person by name who had caused him and others in the Christian faith a lot of trouble, and Paul asked that God bring judgment on him according to his works. I don't want to leave the wrong impression, as a practice I believe in forgiving people, however I do believe much of what is taught today has taken it a step beyond what is in the bible. We need to remember that vengeance was actually commanded by God at one point because it is justice. When Paul said to do good to those who wrong you because by so doing you will heap coals of fire on their head, he was not using a metaphor, he was saying that because you take no revenge that God will take more revenge.

Boy, I am so thankful that, as foolishly misled as many of my teachers were, they couldn't have been half as bad as the ones who poisoned your mind.

 

[samuel23]

Hi Willie: You have a pattern of almost never saying anything sensible, I say "almost" because on rare occasions I have actually read something from you that did make a little sense. Unfortunately this is not one of those times.

 

[Desertsrose]

Sometimes I think we take the forgiveness of those who have done wrong a little too far. In the stories of forgiveness that Jesus gave, the person who sinned against another always went to that person and asked for forgiveness. If a person ask for forgiveness then we are required to give that forgiveness. What we are being taught today is that if someone burns out house down, shoots our dog, beats our child to death, and then laughs in our face, we have to immediately say, I forgive you. I do not really find that in the bible. How about the places in the bible that say, whosoever sins you retain are retained? Paul mentioned a person by name who had caused him and others in the Christian faith a lot of trouble, and Paul asked that God bring judgment on him according to his works. I don't want to leave the wrong impression, as a practice I believe in forgiving people, however I do believe much of what is taught today has taken it a step beyond what is in the bible. We need to remember that vengeance was actually commanded by God at one point because it is justice. When Paul said to do good to those who wrong you because by so doing you will heap coals of fire on their head, he was not using a metaphor, he was saying that because you take no revenge that God will take more revenge.

The topic isn't forgiveness, it's do we avenge or not avenge ourselves and allow God to take care of avenging a wrong.

Paul told Timothy to watch out for Alexander the coppersmith - Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm; the Lord will repay him according to his deeds. Be on guard against him yourself, for he vigorously opposed our teaching. 2 Timothy 4:14-15

If anything, Paul is saying don't avenge yourself because the Lord will repay him. Paul's making a statement of fact is all.

And he warns Timothy ahead of time that Alexander may end up opposing his teaching as well and be ready and on guard for it.

Within this same letter, how did Paul tell Timothy how to act?

The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.2 Timothy 2:24-26

Paul tells the Romans - Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. “But if your enemy is hungry, feed him, and if he is thirsty, give him A drink; for in so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. Romans 12:19-21

By feeding our enemy we aren't partaking in their evil, we're showing them a kindness and it gives them an example of God's life and love in us. If we render evil for evil, we're no better than they are and are being disobedient to our Lord and Savior.

By feeding them and giving them something to eat and drink, it could cause them to feel ashamed and want what we have. The ability to love an enemy and even do them a kindness - even while being mistreated. We are not to render evil for evil, but overcome evil with good. But even if the act of love and kindness doesn't change the enemy, God can and will avenge us. His vengeance is just, pure and righteous. And He chooses whether to avenge us in this world or wait until Judgment Day.

When Nero was torturing and killing the Christians, did the Christians being led by the apostles begin an army to fight the Romans? No.

Instead what did they do? They fled and went to countries where they wouldn't be persecuted. In that way, Christianity spread throughout the world. The Christianity of Love.

So......what sums up the law and the prophets?

Love God will all your heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself.

 

[truthhurts]

(The quote is taken from Red Dawn -- the original, not the remake.)

I love a good slice-and-dice. To me a slice-and-dice is when a writer can totally destroy someone through his words. It's not enough to say, "I don't like you and wish you ill." They go into vivid details of what that ill looks like.

Doesn't seem very Christlike, does it? Christians are supposed to love everyone and wish no man harm. Which brings me to my struggles for the last couple of days -- Psalm 109. David -- a true Man of God according to God's own words, sliced-and-diced in details that make me even cringe. Me cringing is something to see, because I usually like a good slice-and-dice. (Bob Dylan was great at slice-and-dice. lol)

-- You can't say he didn't mean it. Look at it! He really meant it.

-- You can't excuse it in any way because it is officially God's word, so it is what God would have us know about God.

-- You can't say, "yeah but that's Old Covenant." God hasn't changed, and David was a Christian, even if he never knew who the Christ would be. He believed as much about God as we do. God would bring a Savior to have himself a people who love him and glorify him forever. That's exactly what it is to be a Christian. That's the same belief, other than we're looking back at that event, while David was looking forward to it.

Sooo, obvious question -- any understanding on when it is time to ask God to avenge us?

The best I have is that I am very grateful God has never placed me in the position that David was in for decades -- where people he loved deeply were out to slaughter him. I don't particularly feel inclined to think God should slaughter anyone for the slights people have given me verbally in my life. I don't even particularly feel a need to ask God to avenge me for those who physically hurt me.

When is the time to start asking God that our enemy would leave his kids fatherless, and that even his wife gets destroyed?

Imprecatory prayers are not valid under the new Covenant....

 

[Depleted]

I know you might be fixed for funds, but is there any way you can rig up a camera to record him doing this? Then you can turn the recording over to the police and the guy can get justice.

Of course, you can tell him if he continues, you will alert the police. You can be like God and offer him mercy or justice. If the guy keeps on keeping on, that means he chooses justice instead of mercy and then alert the police with your video evidence.

It's an idea, anyway.

It's alright, I misinterpreted your post.

I'm too cheap to waste money on getting even. lol

More of the difference of my version of enemy and David's version.

 

[Depleted]

No...



I believe in God like Christians do, not like Jews do...



I'm not sure what you mean by "make us less".

All I'm saying is that there is a huge difference between 1. believing that Jesus is the Christ based on the confession of His disciples and 2. actually breathing the same air as Jesus Christ.

If you don't see the difference than ... you have a problem.

Yes, but I see no connection to that train of thought and what I was asking or David's relationship with God. It's like you took off so far from OP it is outside of my realm of if I have a problem or not.

 

[Depleted]

The truth is that is the Old Testament,and God allowed Israel to fight to protect their nation,and the truth,and put down the wicked who were physically cruel,and perverted people from the truth,and no other nation is able to do that,and if God allows it to happen,it does not come from Him directly,but He allows the evil spirits to stir up people to take them down.

Isa 31:4 For thus hath the LORD spoken unto me, Like as the lion and the young lion roaring on his prey, when a multitude of shepherds is called forth against him, he will not be afraid of their voice, nor abase himself for the noise of them: so shall the LORD of hosts come down to fight for mount Zion, and for the hill thereof.
Isa 31:5 As birds flying, so will the LORD of hosts defend Jerusalem; defending also he will deliver it; and passing over he will preserve it.

God still allows Israel to fight physically as fighter pilots pave the way for the win in the six day war,which they took control of Jerusalem.

No other nation has the right to fight physically but Israel,and if they do it is not coming from God,and if He allows it to happen,it is coming from them.

Jas 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?

Pro 24:17 Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth:
Pro 24:18 Lest the LORD see it, and it displease him, and he turn away his wrath from him.

Jesus said be harmless as doves,turn the other cheek,do not fear what they can do to the body,but can do no more,feed and clothe your enemies,bless them that curse you,and do good to them that hate you,and pray for them that despitefully use you.

We never ask God to avenge us for we want no harm to come upon anybody,and loving people is the fulfilling of the law.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

But in heaven when they are united with Jesus they can make such a request.

Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

You do get Jesus is that same God that wiped out thousands in the OT and wiped out a married couple for not handing over all the money they got for selling their land, right? That was in Acts, so I'm still going with God hasn't changed, and won't be changing.

 

[Depleted]

Really? So what is Christianity? To hate your enemy (OT) or to love your enemy (NT)?

To follow God! To be his kid! To let him take point on where we go and what we do!

 

[Depleted]

Boy, I am so thankful that, as foolishly misled as many of my teachers were, they couldn't have been half as bad as the ones who poisoned your mind.

You do realize you've never actually answered my questions, right? But you keep putting down anyone who disagrees with you. It's really hard to figure out how to not disagree with you if you never tell us what YOU think.

Two things you do well:
-- Post what others say.
-- Tell how others get everything wrong.

What you don't do often is tell what Willie believes!

 

[Depleted]

This was so good, it bears repeating.

The topic isn't forgiveness, it's do we avenge or not avenge ourselves and allow God to take care of avenging a wrong.

Paul told Timothy to watch out for Alexander the coppersmith - Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm; the Lord will repay him according to his deeds. Be on guard against him yourself, for he vigorously opposed our teaching. 2 Timothy 4:14-15

If anything, Paul is saying don't avenge yourself because the Lord will repay him. Paul's making a statement of fact is all.

And he warns Timothy ahead of time that Alexander may end up opposing his teaching as well and be ready and on guard for it.

Within this same letter, how did Paul tell Timothy how to act?

The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.2 Timothy 2:24-26

Paul tells the Romans -Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. “But if your enemy is hungry, feed him, and if he is thirsty, give him A drink; for in so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. Romans 12:19-21

By feeding our enemy we aren't partaking in their evil, we're showing them a kindness and it gives them an example of God's life and love in us. If we render evil for evil, we're no better than they are and are being disobedient to our Lord and Savior.

By feeding them and giving them something to eat and drink, it could cause them to feel ashamed and want what we have. The ability to love an enemy and even do them a kindness - even while being mistreated. We are not to render evil for evil, but overcome evil with good. But even if the act of love and kindness doesn't change the enemy, God can and will avenge us. His vengeance is just, pure and righteous. And He chooses whether to avenge us in this world or wait until Judgment Day.

When Nero was torturing and killing the Christians, did the Christians being led by the apostles begin an army to fight the Romans? No.

Instead what did they do? They fled and went to countries where they wouldn't be persecuted. In that way, Christianity spread throughout the world. The Christianity of Love.

So......what sums up the law and the prophets?

Love God will all your heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself.

 

[Miri]

You know, I've been thinking that "avenge" comes in many forms.

The common thought is - go pull every finger nail and hair out until they beg for
mercy. Then drop them from Mount Everest with no parachute. Lol

But avenge could be, just someone getting it wrong, or
losing favour, or posted somewhere else, for example. I'm sure there are many more
examples too.

David prayed for retribution. He got it, David became king and Saul was killed, but it was
all in accordance with Gods timing.

When the doctors at hospital, especially the smug consultant, told me my aunt would die
as she had given up the will to live and fight for survival. I was shocked. But I laughed the
loudest when praise God she didn't die. He was proved very very wrong, in fact when she
continued to live, junior staff finally decided to move my aunt to the high dependency
Respiritory unit. There she got high pressurised oxygen and within 48 hours she
finally woke up. It wasn't her will to live that was the problem, it was lack of oxygen.
The consultant never did speak to me and say he might have been wrong. But seeing my
aunt come home from hospital was vengence enough for me. I do believe God kept her
alive until the staff saw the error of their ways!



Or when I was faced with sickness disciplinary action last year, for taking 3.5 weeks off
sick because I pulled by back. I was shocked and upset when I got that letter in the
post telling me about it. I couldn't believe my manager would discipline me for having a
slipped disc, sciatica and a trapped nerve, especially as I'd had barely any time off
sick in nearly 20 years. She is a very jobs worth, inflexible person, very sharp,
never smiles, and scoffs at other people's humour. I don't think I will ever understand her
personality.

That hung over me for months when I got back to work, I felt it was a big miscarriage of
justice and completely wrong. But staff shortages and computer changes meant the meeting
kept getting put off. Eventually the matter was dropped with no action taken. I later discovered my
managers manager had told her to drop it! She never had the decency to tell me it had been
dropped. I found this out while looking at my personal records. I got my vengence indirectly.



Or when I was a kid, I was bullied because I was the only non white kid in my class,
I was also very quiet and shy. But who would guess that I happened to have a musical
ability, an ear for music which was discovered by chance. So I ended up playing in all
the school concerts and developing new musical friends who I had something in common with.

I supoose what I am saying is that things work together for those that love the Lord,
that's vengence enough.

Romans 8:28-30 NKJV
[28] And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those
who are the called according to His purpose. [29] For whom He foreknew, He also
predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn
among many brethren. [30] Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called;
whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

 

[Desertsrose]

Thanks, Lynn!

I thought your OP was an excellent topic with a need to ask how can we balance the old with the new covenant. Like you said, "God never changes."

 

[notmyown]

Paul tells the Romans -Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. “But if your enemy is hungry, feed him, and if he is thirsty, give him A drink; for in so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. Romans 12:19-21

this is what i was thinking of, too, Rose.

the imprecatory Psalms are asking God to do what He wills in terms of vengeance.
it's not ours to take because we're not God. it's HIS justice, and His to uphold because He does it without fault.
but it is the Word of God, and David is operating in His role as prophet and king telling us about what God wants.

God is perfectly Holy and Righteous, so when He chooses to avenge Himself and His children, it's perfectly Holy and Righteous.
we're unable to be and do that the way He can, so we're called to love (which we also don't do the way He does, but it's what He commands us to do).
and let Him deal with the world.


did you ever notice that apart from Jn 3:16, God has nothing good to say about "the world" ?
hmmmm....


there, Lynn, did i successfully sidetrack your thread? lol

 

[Miri]

You do realize you've never actually answered my questions, right? But you keep putting down anyone who disagrees with you. It's really hard to figure out how to not disagree with you if you never tell us what YOU think.

Two things you do well:
-- Post what others say.
-- Tell how others get everything wrong.

What you don't do often is tell what Willie believes!

Im not sure why but this made me chuckle. Then the thought came that
Willie is the grasshopper of CC. You know that guy off Kung Fo. (Sorry Will
couldn't resist).

Ps no laughing at the bald people.


[video]https://youtu.be/KrUN7XGcDqQ[/video]