Baptism of fire

zone · Sep 30, 2011

lol.
good thing you have your armour on.
you're going to need it.

those who choose experiential spiritism over Biblical Truth will battle you to their last breath.
i do not know why.

he that hath an ear, let him hear.

Red33 · Sep 30, 2011

cronjecj said:

You probably did attack the body of Christ and did not even know it or discern the body like so many others on this site have done and have tried to justify their attacks with some abstract knowledge of the scriptures, thinking themselves to be wise when they were being foolish. I won't name them , but they are here right in our midst.

zone · Sep 30, 2011

Red33 said:

still upset that amillennialism is Biblical and Dispensationalism isn't? (no rapture either)
it'll be okay Redster.

Red33 · Sep 30, 2011

zone said:

It is so exciting to know that we live in the church age and in the body of Christ where Jesus Christ, who rose from the dead and ascended to the right hand of the Father, is our head and we can grow in grace and knowledge of Him right here on the earth. Then when we pass from this life through death or in the pre- trib rapture (God willing), we will put on incorruption and inherit the kingdom of God with our brand new glorified bodies. Thy kingdom COME thy WILL be done on EARTH AS it is in HEAVEN.

Jesus never said to anyone that He was going to establish His kingdom on the earth THROUGH THE CHURCH prior to His second coming. The kingdom has not been established on the earth yet, but it will come and we will reign in righteousness with Christ for 1,000 years. That's the kingdom of God reigning and that won't happen now until the second coming because in the first coming Christ was rejected and became the Lamb for the sacrifice of sins. Any Spirit-filled believer that loves God should know the truth and have joy, the fullness of joy, but your doctrine of 'amillennialism' takes away that joy and that expectation of the promise of God. Shame and reproach on your false doctrine that puts believers in bondage to a great tribulation that the church was not appointed to. You should hang your head and cover it with sackcloth and ashes. However, perhaps you will come to your senses and realize as the prodigal did that he was feeding on the wrong food and on ashes.

zone · Sep 30, 2011

Red33 said:

shame on you for teaching false doctrine giving false hope based on a stupid concept that doesn't exist anywhere in scripture, and is a doctrine of devils given to a mystic, and perpetuated by the DISPENSATIONALIST CULT.

Harold Camping's people had a "lot of hope and joy" too. now look what a mockery they've made.... AGAIN.

THE BLESSED HOPE IS THE RESURRECTION, THE SECOND ADVENT, NEW JERUSALEM, ETERNITY.

you can attempt to intimidate and shame me (when it has ZERO to do with me...its WRITTEN) all you want to. your FIGHTING THE LORD's WORD...not me.

The Book of Revelation is a COMFORT to christians, from john's time onwards. its all about CHRIST'S LOVE AND HIS OVERCOMING! and there is NO FEAR IN PERFECT LOVE. if you are fearful of being HURT or persecuted for His Name's sake, you have not been made perfect in love.

you are fearful, and that is UNBELIEF.

it's NOT MY PROBLEM IF PRETRIBBERS have been taught a lie that causes them to be afraid when the TRUE eschatology is taught....it's YOURS.

YOU PROBABLY WON'T READ THIS, BECAUSE YOU'D HAVE TO ADMIT you've believed wrongly; AND been TEACHING FALSELY and CONDEMNING and cursing those of us who know the truth. and then you'd have to make it right.

you STILL do not know what Jesus meant when He said ANYONE WHO DOES NOT PICK UP HIS CROSS CAN NOT BE MY DISCIPLE. you think it's about denying yourself beer or that new car.

ITS ABOUT BEING PUT TO DEATH if He wills it. how dare you demean the christains around the world enduring it even NOW.

the tribulation is NOT GOD'S WRATH. we are not appointed to WRATH. we ARE PROMISED tribulation...true christians are anyways.

i challenged you once before to debate this issue, and i showed you SAINTS IN THE TRIBULATION.

here it is again....now you show us all where this NEW BREED OF TRIBULATION SAINTS COMES FROM.

cont.......

zone · Sep 30, 2011

DISCLAIMER:
i post this ONLY to show saints in the trib, as they are shown in Rev.
i do not necessarily affirm tarkowski's theology, nor even his overall eschatological view here.

Red (or any pretribbers): WHO ARE THE SAINTS IN THE TRIB?

The Saints And The Wrath Of God
by Ed Tarkowski

There will be saints in the tribulation, and these saints will be the same ones who see the beginning of the tribulation:
They offer prayers:

(Rev 5:8 KJV) And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

The prayers are the saints on earth as "they ascend up before God":

(Rev 8:3-4 KJV) And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. {4} And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

After the Lord delivers God's final wrath, the saints are rewarded, not seven years before or near the end of the tribulation as other doctrines propose:

(Rev 11:18 KJV) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The antichrist makes war with the saints during the tribulation:

(Rev 13:7 KJV) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The saints must persevere during the tribulation:

(Rev 13:10 KJV) He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

The saints must have patience during the tribulation:

(Rev 14:12 KJV) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The blood of the saints is shed during the tribulation:

(Rev 16:6 KJV) For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

The blood of the saints is shed during the tribulation:

(Rev 17:6 KJV) And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

In Babylon is found the blood of the saints:

(Rev 18:24 KJV) And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

ALL the saints are in the holy city at the end of the millennium, which, if you think about it, are saints just like those in the tribulation because there are no classifications of saints. Saints are saints:

(Rev 20:9 KJV) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

SAINT (Strong's) sacred (phys. pure, mor. blameless or religious, cer. consecrated):--(most) holy (one, thing), saint.

Jew or gentile, male or female, rich or poor can all be saints ONLY BY the shed blood of Christ. So MUST BE the saints in the tribulation. The unbelieving Jews in the tribulation are not saints. The unbelieving Gentiles in the tribulation are not saints. Those who are saints belong to Christ and are members of the church.

Any doctrine that says the saints are raptured and God saves more saints to be in the tribulation have to create a new, biblically undefined species of "saint" and come under the warnings of Revelation 22:17-20. Why people nullify the word of God by following the perverted teachings of men and jeapordize their spiritual inheritance in the Rev 22 verses, I don't understand. They would deny the saint's presence in the tribulation by verbal gymnastics when it clearly says they are present within it. There is nothing to distinguish the saints in tribulation from any other saint. They pray during it, they are martyred during it, the persevere during it, they keep their garments pure during all their trials and Jesus addresses encouragement to them in it:

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Only a saint can do these things, a saint who is committed to Jesus with his very life's blood. How ridiculous the theories that deny God's word. 
I would love to hear a TRUE definition of what distinguishes the blood-bought saints of the tribulation saints from those who are supposedly raptured before the tribulation.

I don't understand why pretribbers don't understand that they're going to be present when the wrath is poured out? The church returns with Jesus when He treads out the wrath in Revelation 19. All the saints will be there and witness it and the glory of our salvation will be seen: that wrath will not hurt us having been raptured just before it WITH THEIR BODY CHANGED TO BE IMMORTAL WHICH WILL NOT BE SUBJECT TO DESTRUCTION OR CORRUPTION. The wrath won't hurt us one bit.
The seven bowls of wrath, poured out before these events, are on the kingdom of the antichrist and won't harm the saints because they are not of his kingdom (just as Israel didn't experience the plagues of Egypt).

The Wrath Of Revelation In Relation To The Saints

The first bowl is poured out on those who have the mark of the beast and worship his image. The saints in the trib - AND THERE ARE SAINTS IN THE TRIB - are exempt from this bowl:

Rev 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

The second and third bowls are poured out upon the waters of earth as a judgment ON THOSE WHO KILLED GOD'S SAINTS AND PROPHETS (v. 6). The saints naturally are exempt from this bowl:

Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man; and every living soul died in the sea.

Rev 16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
Rev 16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
Rev 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
Rev 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

The fourth bowl is poured out on the sun to scorch UNREPENTANT MEN (v. 11) with fire. The saints in the trib are exempt from this bowl:

Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

The fifth bowl is poured out on the kingdom of the beast and its inhabitants because they REPENTED NOT. The saints in the trib are exempt from this bowl:

Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

The sixth bowl is poured out to bring the kings of the east (which are definitely not the saints) and evil spiritual forces call the world's armies to Armageddon. The saints are exempt from this bowl:

Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

As these forces gather for Armageddon, what follows is the rapture of the Church (the saints on earth included). The saints are exempt from this bowl. In fact, Jesus tells the saints in the next verse:

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

We are deep into the tribulation with the kingdom of darkness falling into pieces, the evil armies gathering to Armageddon, and Jesus saying He is about to come. The saints are raptured as He descends and the gathered, evil armies destroyed in that descent with ALL the saints, those raised and those changed:

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Notice in verse 16:21 the verse no longer adds "and they repented not." The time of repentance is over, Christ has come with His saints and the millennial reign begins.

None of these bowls have anything to do with the church. The pretrib argument that the church won't be in the tribulation because they are not meant for wrath is a useless defense BECAUSE THE BOWLS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM even if they are present. In fact, the saints find themselves smack-dab in the middle of the outpouring of God's wrath in the person of Christ because they return with Him when He pours out that wrath after the first six bowls:

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
REV 19:14 AND THE ARMIES WHICH WERE IN HEAVEN FOLLOWED HIM UPON WHITE HORSES, CLOTHED IN FINE LINEN, WHITE AND CLEAN.
REV 19:15 AND OUT OF HIS MOUTH GOETH A SHARP SWORD, THAT WITH IT HE SHOULD SMITE THE NATIONS: AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON: AND HE TREADETH THE WINEPRESS OF THE FIERCENESS AND WRATH OF ALMIGHTY GOD.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

The pretribulation doctrine absolutely destroys this glorious picture of the completion of the salvation of the saints!!!! We are changed to be like him and are changed incorruptible while the birds of the air pluck at the bodies of the unrepentant slain. This scene is further described in Zechariah:

Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

THE SAINTS OF GOD RETURNING WITH CHRIST NOW CHANGED TO BE LIKE HIM STAND WITH HIM IN THE MIDDLE OF ALL THIS WRATH. The pretrib argument destroys the glory and power that is due Christ. 

You can respect men, but respected men have fostered great apostasy in the church because men don't read their bibles but look for implications or suppositions to prove their point and for someone else to do their thinking for them. This kind of garbage has been in the Church for decades and has increased and the devil is deceiving more men more than ever. The time is very short I would say.

There are BLOOD-BOUGHT saints in the trib who will see all of this wrath of God on the evil of this world and they will not be affected because they are in Christ. NO PRETRIBBER has been able to explain WITH SCRIPTURE why God pulls out the entire Church before the trib because that is His pattern and then saves some more to go through the trib. EXPLAIN WHY GOD BROKE HIS PATTERN BY SAVING MORE SAINTS TO GO THROUGH THE TRIBULATION??

The answer is simple to those who have eyes to see. Main Page

http://www.velocity.net/~edju70/SaintsWrath.htm

Abiding · Sep 30, 2011

Red33 said:

It is so exciting to know that we live in the church age and in the body of Christ where Jesus Christ, who rose from the dead and ascended to the right hand of the Father, is our head and we can grow in grace and knowledge of Him right here on the earth. Then when we pass from this life through death or in the pre- trib rapture (God willing), we will put on incorruption and inherit the kingdom of God with our brand new glorified bodies. Thy kingdom COME thy WILL be done on EARTH AS it is in HEAVEN.

Jesus never said to anyone that He was going to establish His kingdom on the earth THROUGH THE CHURCH prior to His second coming. The kingdom has not been established on the earth yet, but it will come and we will reign in righteousness with Christ for 1,000 years. That's the kingdom of God reigning and that won't happen now until the second coming because in the first coming Christ was rejected and became the Lamb for the sacrifice of sins. Any Spirit-filled believer that loves God should know the truth and have joy, the fullness of joy, but your doctrine of 'amillennialism' takes away that joy and that expectation of the promise of God. Shame and reproach on your false doctrine that puts believers in bondage to a great tribulation that the church was not appointed to. You should hang your head and cover it with sackcloth and ashes. However, perhaps you will come to your senses and realize as the prodigal did that he was feeding on the wrong food and on ashes.

Red i sure hope this isnt round 2 of your ranting...we All know your position.
Question.....were all them human candles at the emperers parties appointed to that demise? Do you look at them with shame? Are they a reproach to you? Were they in bondage? Lacked joy? Did they lack expectation?

Not to speak of the millions of other saints killed...read Heb. 11:36-=40 and get real.

GaryMac · Sep 30, 2011

cronjecj said:

Matthew 3:10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the FIRE.

Matthew 3:11 I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and FIRE.

Matthew 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable FIRE.

If the above "fire" is the fire of judgment then why do some preachers in church shout fire, fire, fire and as they do the people fall backwards??

The fire spoken of is the same fire that ignited Jesus into doing what he did after Matt 3:16. It happens in us all who recieve from God what Jesus did.

Abiding · Sep 30, 2011

GaryMac said:

read the verse....there was a dove.....Jesus didnt flip out and fall backwards...did you give the correct passage?

GaryMac · Sep 30, 2011

Abiding said:

I didnt say he did, I said his fire was ignited when Gods SPirit came to the man opend heaven to him. Only then did he go about doding the things he did. You are looking at some mans ritual for fire that has noting to do with Christ be in you at all.

Red33 · Sep 30, 2011

Abiding said:

What makes you think that believers who live godly lives at present, will not suffer persecution before Christ comes back prior to the great tribulation? This has been going on for 2,000+ years. HELLO, HELLO, WAKE UP ABIDING. You and others have this martyr's complex that you transfer to the church during the great tribulation because you have this warped idea that we live in the kingdom age and Satan has been bound up. How you figure that, I will never know and don't want to know.

There has been plenty of believers persecuted and martyred for the gospel and for Christ's sake, living godly lives, so what makes you think that has ended? There are men of God right now that have all kinds of evil spoken of them and against them and their ministries and people that God has raised up and much effort has been made to have their ministries destroyed by evil people and through the courts, but because they are of God they somehow keep having this resurrected power and couldn't be stopped and just got more and more fruitful. They did not succumb to any form of apostasy nor did they give up and QUIT, but added virtue to their faith and multiplied in the grace of God. But what would you know about that in your experience, is that why you are waiting for the tribulation so you can be a martyr because you don't know what it means to live godly right now in this present evil world?

Are you a QUITTER Abiding. Take your stiffnecked doctrine and go for a walk because you are a shame as well and I also hope that someday you will also come to your senses, but until then I can hope and believe God.

cronjecj · Sep 30, 2011

GaryMac said:

His fire was ignited? Are you sure about this? because we would think it was the Holy Spirit that did the 'ignition'?

I'm sure if what you say was correct then that particular scripture should have gone something like 'and as soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a 'FIRE' and not a 'DOVE' BUT it doesn't say that it clearly says like a 'DOVE'

Abiding · Sep 30, 2011

GaryMac said:

No im not looking at somes mans ritual for fire. It was you who posted after a post giving a reference
of fire where fire wasnt mentioned.

zone · Sep 30, 2011

Red33 said:

something really awful has happened to you.
its the result of the above highlighted in RED.

all i can think of to say is i hope one day The Lord will be merciful enough to grant you repentence for the evil you speak of SOUND DOCTRINE (His TRUE PLAN).
your Scofieldian PLAN B GENTILE CHURCH AGE AND POSTPONED KINGDOM....STRAIGHT FROM THE DRAGON'S MOUTH!

(and may He grant you sorrow for the way you spoke to Abiding who himself testified of wrestling with that WICKED dispensationalist doctrine, and he OVERCAME!).

Red33 · Sep 30, 2011