Baptism symbol only ?

[sacraig67]

There is no passage in scripture that says "water baptism is a symbol". But for you to say we can only be saved by grace and water baptism is false.
You can also not say that my theology is wrong as I don't just read the Bible but I study the Bible.
All you have done here is pick and choose certain passages that defend your belief. You say we are saved by grace and works. Paul the apostle said "not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:9
Jesus said "baptize them in..." not "with". God baptized us with the Holy Spirit Jesus tells us to baptize "..In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." Mat 28:19 Two whole different meaning.
So now you have your answer..There are no passages. If you decide to study using a study Bible or commentaries that's up to you. I know my theology maybe in your words "you should look at your theology".

 

[dcontroversal]

I don't believe you will find a scripture that says baptism is only a symbol. In Acts 2:38 it is a command. "Repent and be baptized EVERY ONE OF YOU in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF YOUR SINS". It is a command and it removes your sins.
I Peter 3:21 says "Baptism does now SAVE us not the putting away of the filth of the flesh but an answer of a good conscience toward God.
In Acts you will find all the conversions they were baptized immediately.

Yep sure does...from an ANGLICAN twist as they believe in water salvation....because your sins have been remitted for in the Greek...I.E. BE identified with Jesus dia biblical water immersion because your sins have BEEN remitted for......<----have been is PAST TENSE...they had believed already, but had not made that public declaration dia biblical water immersion....FOR every one used out of context to teach water immersion there are 20 that teach faith, grace, mercy and no works..Baptism is a work of righteousness and testifies outwardly to the inward CONVERSION that has already taken place.......

It is compared to circumcision and is in the N.T. what circumcision was to the O.T......i.e. an outward sign of an inward covenant...Abraham had FAITH before circumcision!

 

[JesusIsAll]

Just to consider, water cannot wash away sin, only the blood of Jesus Christ, or Christ's atoning death would have been a huge mistake of God. The thief on the cross, and assuredly many others in history, had no opportunity to get water baptism, perhaps a converted soldier killed in battle, any believer killed prior to baptism, to say their faith and acceptance of the gospel of Jesus Christ as Lord was not enough, that any material work of man is needed to complete salvation? Which would it seem one could not do without, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, being born again of the Holy Spirit, or the baptism of a man with water, which could even, and is often done, absent true faith, to such as babies or lip service Christians who've not really repented? Just consider this.

God didn't ever tell us to abandon common sense and reason, something I've long perceived,

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Is there a single believer out there who would claim God would say anything like, "Sorry, having no chance is no excuse. You default disobeyed the law of dunking or water drops, needed that priest or preacher do the water ritual, to shore up the hole in My atoning work. Guess salvation was a little works based."

Baptism is a command, a public display of faith, but put it this way: is there either a single believer who can tell me faith in the blood of and name of the Lord Jesus Christ is not enough, that you need some added act of man for salvation? Claim some ceremony, work of man with water, bestows salvation? Could you please point out in scripture where lack of water baptism is an unpardonable sin, then?

 

[IAm3rd]

There is no passage in scripture that says "water baptism is a symbol". But for you to say we can only be saved by grace and water baptism is false.
You can also not say that my theology is wrong as I don't just read the Bible but I study the Bible.
All you have done here is pick and choose certain passages that defend your belief. You say we are saved by grace and works. Paul the apostle said "not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:9
Jesus said "baptize them in..." not "with". God baptized us with the Holy Spirit Jesus tells us to baptize "..In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." Mat 28:19 Two whole different meaning.
So now you have your answer..There are no passages. If you decide to study using a study Bible or commentaries that's up to you. I know my theology maybe in your words "you should look at your theology".

Once again, you refuse to acknowledge / explain what I simply asked you to explain. 1 Peter 3:20-21

 

[IAm3rd]

Just to consider, water cannot wash away sin, only the blood of Jesus Christ, or Christ's atoning death would have been a huge mistake of God.

Nobody has ever said water washes away sins... I have stated clearly, over and over that we are saved by the grace of God alone through a faith which responds to the gospel by the atoning blood of Christ.
If we simply are baptized as a sign of our faith, why does Paul continually say we are baptized INTO Christ ? If your view is correct, then Paul is wrong because we would already be IN CHRIST prior to baptism right ?

 

[JesusIsAll]

If your view is correct, then Paul is wrong because we would already be IN CHRIST prior to baptism right ?

Why don't we back up a second? Show me any verse in the Bible that states water baptism, as opposed to the baptism into Christ of the Holy Spirit, is required for salvation. I've seen many see the word baptism in the Bible and just assume it refers to water baptism. So, please show me where it's explicit that water baptism is essential for salvation.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I take it because you posted these verses you believe that Christians are all baptized with the Spirit, rather than water. Well, Like I asked the brother above you... please explain 1 Peter 3:20-21

Further, I will just copy and paste from an email I sent to another brother who had similar views. See what you think...

Baptism in the Holy spirit is not something that happens to someone upon believing in Christ, but rather is something that can happen to people AFTER they are Christians. It is an outpouring of the Holy Spirit by God upon believers to perform signs and wonders. Matt Slick says the same on CARM "​
Baptism of the Holy Spirit1 is a term used to describe a movement of the Spirit upon and/or within a believer usually sometime after the person is saved. ​"

( I mentioned Matt Slick here because my friend is a fan of his )

1 Peter 3:18-20 speaks about Christ's death, his resurrection and his declaration of that victory over death to the evil spirits who had corrupted mankind in the days of Noah - 3:20,21 - specifically says that the baptism that now saves you is not water baptism - The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, [water baptism can only wash the outside of a man] but the answer of a good conscience toward God) [but by something that touches you on the inside, i.e. your conscience] by the resurrection of Jesus Christ . . . . Made possible by the resurrection of Jesus Christ and his ascension and exaltation as Lord, which made him the baptizer with holy Spirit. (John 7:39)

Look at this, Acts 8:[SUP]14 [/SUP]Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, [SUP]15 [/SUP]who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, [SUP]16 [/SUP]for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.

In the above verse we see that these people received the Word of God, and were already water baptized... but did not receive the HS until the Apostles laid hands on them sometime later ? There is a difference between the outpouring, or baptism, or the Spirit "falling upon" people, and the indwelling of the HS in all believers.

If your view was correct, then these believers would already have the Spirit. Baptism in the Spirit is something totally different than the indwelling. And this was done in ACTS to produce signs and wonders ( speaking in tongues etc )

People can only go as far as they are taught. The first century church was steeped in tradition and rituals. Rituals played a big role in the lives of Jewish people. The OT is all they knew and there were plenty of rituals wherein people thought made them "clean". Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come , and not the very image of the things can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect - a good conscience toward God. Hebrews 7:18-19 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect . . . Within the law there were many washings and rituals but none could not cleanse the conscience of anyone. Water only washes the outside of the body but being "immersed" "filled" with living water cleanses a man from the inside out.

Every time Jesus or John the baptist says you will be baptized in the Holy Spirit, they are talking TO THE APOSTLES... it is not promised to all believers. And that took place in the upper room, and a few other places in acts ( such as acts 10 ) as an outpouring by God to make people believe. In the case of Acts 10 it was to make Peter believe the Gospel was also for the Gentiles. ( see Acts 11 where Peter re tells the story )

With this in mind, you should be viewing all scripture about baptism as water baptism, for there is no reason to view them otherwise imo.

Here we go again - someone trying to separate the individual believers from the church, the body of Christ - The apostles were baptized, i.e. immersed, filled with Holy Spirit they became part of the body of Christ, the Church - I am a born again believer - filled with holy Spirit - also part of the body of Christ, the Church - We are all members one of another - 1 Cor. 12:12,13 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. It is promised to ALL believers!

In Acts 22:12-16 we see that Pauls sins were not washed clean until he was baptized, 3 days AFTER his conversion on the road to Damascus! This is water baptism, as Ananias say "arise" and be baptized. Why arise ? The apostles recieved the baptism of the HS in the upper room while SITTING.

Actually the verse does not say water but I will not argue the point - and sitting or standing is not EVEN arguable more laughable.

Peter is clearly talking about water baptism in 1 Peter 3:...
[SUP]20 [/SUP]because[SUP][e][/SUP] they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through WATER. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

A type and foreshadow of baptism - I don't argue that point - but it only removes dirt from the body and in no way cleanses a man's conscience.

Now brother, you may not accept my view... but in light of Acts 8:14-17 you CANNOT continue believing in your view.

I am a SISTER! Acts 18:24-26 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scripture, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquilla and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. Knowing ONLY the baptism of John - must have been another baptism available . . . so they took him aside and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly - What do you think they taught him? Maybe concerning the baptism of the holy Spirit since God made specific mention of him only knowing the baptism of John?

It is also worth noting that your view of water baptism simply being a symbol is not to be found in history until rather recently... Luther himself stated clearly the purpose of baptism

From the Lutheran Small Catechism-

What does Baptism give or profit?--Answer.
It works forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare.
Which are such words and promises of God? Answer.​

Christ, our Lord, says in the last chapter of Mark: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

My view of water baptism was contrasted with baptism with Holy Spirit by John - that's pretty early in history!

 

[StoneThrower]

I was wondering if you all could help me find where the scripture says baptism is just a symbol one can choose to do if they want.
Thanks...

( note: looking for scripture here... not your opinions. )

The problem isnt the answer, the problem is the question.
Baptism isnt a choice its a command, but that dosent mean that its not a symbol.
Nor does it mean that its salvific in anyway, as its not. It's a witness to the church of the work that has already been completed at salvation.
Baptism is not a replacement for circumsion as both were being practiced at the same time.

 

[Jackson123]

Nobody has ever said water washes away sins... I have stated clearly, over and over that we are saved by the grace of God alone through a faith which responds to the gospel by the atoning blood of Christ.
If we simply are baptized as a sign of our faith, why does Paul continually say we are baptized INTO Christ ? If your view is correct, then Paul is wrong because we would already be IN CHRIST prior to baptism right ?

Baptized/ immersed it to Christ will save you. The thief on the cross is baptized into Christ. that why he is save.

Baptized in to water not always mean baptized into Christ.

My friend baptized into water because his mom push him to do. His mom believe water baptized will stop him from gambling and prostitution.

He did but not stop him from gambling and prostitution. Because water baptism not automatically mean baptized in Christ.

 

[mailmandan]

Yep sure does...from an ANGLICAN twist as they believe in water salvation....because your sins have been remitted for in the Greek...I.E. BE identified with Jesus dia biblical water immersion because your sins have BEEN remitted for......<----have been is PAST TENSE...they had believed already, but had not made that public declaration dia biblical water immersion....FOR every one used out of context to teach water immersion there are 20 that teach faith, grace, mercy and no works..Baptism is a work of righteousness and testifies outwardly to the inward CONVERSION that has already taken place.......

It is compared to circumcision and is in the N.T. what circumcision was to the O.T......i.e. an outward sign of an inward covenant...Abraham had FAITH before circumcision!

Amen! Romans 4:9 - Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was is accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith (just like baptism) which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness may be imputed to them also.

 

[IAm3rd]

I am a SISTER!

I can see that... As I stated, this was a copy / paste I wrote in an email to a brother.

As for the rest, I tire of explaining the same thing over and over. Just follow Christ and I hope to seeing you in heaven one day.

 

[IAm3rd]

Baptized/ immersed it to Christ will save you. The thief on the cross is baptized into Christ. that why he is save.

Baptized in to water not always mean baptized into Christ.

My friend baptized into water because his mom push him to do. His mom believe water baptized will stop him from gambling and prostitution.

He did but not stop him from gambling and prostitution. Because water baptism not automatically mean baptized in Christ.

neither does "believing in Jesus" mean your saved... many people walk the isle and say a prayer wasting their time and everyone's there.

 

[IAm3rd]

Amen! Romans 4:9 - Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was is accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith (just like baptism) which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness may be imputed to them also.

Well that's nifty, but only works if you add " ( just like baptism )" to the scriptures, which you did...

 

[SolidGround]

Our immersion is in the Blood of Christ. That is the one Baptism.
Without His Blood, there is no remission of sins.

But those who refuse the water, are rebels at heart.

 

[IAm3rd]

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Baptism in the Holy Spirit is something that happend to Christians that were already saved in the time of Acts... When John the baptist said He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit, was he talking to you or the Apostles ?
There is a difference between the indwelling and outpouring.

 

[IAm3rd]

Our immersion is in the Blood of Christ. That is the one Baptism.
Without His Blood, there is no remission of sins.

But those who refuse the water, are rebels at heart.

That's a fine belief... but were do we find that in scripture ?

 

[SolidGround]

That's a fine belief... but were do we find that in scripture ?

Matthew 26:28,
Hebrews 9:22

 

[IAm3rd]

Why don't we back up a second? Show me any verse in the Bible that states water baptism, as opposed to the baptism into Christ of the Holy Spirit, is required for salvation. I've seen many see the word baptism in the Bible and just assume it refers to water baptism. So, please show me where it's explicit that water baptism is essential for salvation.

Well, several places. But lets start with 1 Peter 3:20-21... which says baptism now saves you. What's the context ? Verse 20... the flood waters of Noah.

 

[IAm3rd]

Matthew 26:28,
Hebrews 9:22

Matthew 26:28 "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."


Hebrews 9:22 "In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."

I'm sorry, I don't see baptism in either of these