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What you are seeing is the power of Baptism!
What does water baptism represent?
Our death burial and resurrection to new life in Christ.
Where is the power of this new life?
In the shed Blood of Christ, that we are washed in (immersed in, baptized in, covered by).
Rev 12:11
1 John 1:7
Col 1:14
Exp 24:8, Lev 17:11
Rev 1:5
Hebrews 10:19-22
What does water baptism represent?
Our death burial and resurrection to new life in Christ.
Where is the power of this new life?
In the shed Blood of Christ, that we are washed in (immersed in, baptized in, covered by).
Rev 12:11
1 John 1:7
Col 1:14
Exp 24:8, Lev 17:11
Rev 1:5
Hebrews 10:19-22
1 Peter 1:2 - the word "sprinkling" is the same used for ceremonial washing, which is what baptism is.
1 John 5:8 - Do you see how the Spirit the water and the Blood agree?
Romans 6:1-11 - shows us what baptism represents.
Through His wounds we are forgiven, through His death we die to ourselves, through His resurrection we are made new in Him.
1 John 5:8 - Do you see how the Spirit the water and the Blood agree?
Romans 6:1-11 - shows us what baptism represents.
Through His wounds we are forgiven, through His death we die to ourselves, through His resurrection we are made new in Him.
First of all, I would not encourage anyone not to get baptized IN WATER, but
I think it is you who are missing the point here. Noah (and his family) and Moses (and the Israelites) passed through the water and were saved. They were not baptized in water. Do you see the flaw in your interpretation? We are baptized in water to witness to all that we have a hope for a clear conscience; that we believe in the saving power of Jesus Christ; and because we were given water baptism as an example - that was intended to be followed. But we are saved through the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Some will say that they are exactly the same, but we see several examples in scripture where people received the Holy Spirit before, during, and after water baptism. And if we are not right (don't overanalyze the wording here) with God, then it is not water baptism, but just getting wet.
PS Yes, I know that it says that they were baptized - but then the Church might need to change their baptizing methods....anyone have an Ark...and perilous waters.
I think it is you who are missing the point here. Noah (and his family) and Moses (and the Israelites) passed through the water and were saved. They were not baptized in water. Do you see the flaw in your interpretation? We are baptized in water to witness to all that we have a hope for a clear conscience; that we believe in the saving power of Jesus Christ; and because we were given water baptism as an example - that was intended to be followed. But we are saved through the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Some will say that they are exactly the same, but we see several examples in scripture where people received the Holy Spirit before, during, and after water baptism. And if we are not right (don't overanalyze the wording here) with God, then it is not water baptism, but just getting wet.
PS Yes, I know that it says that they were baptized - but then the Church might need to change their baptizing methods....anyone have an Ark...and perilous waters.
Remember that the baptism of John was also said to be for the remission of sins.
If the baptism of John could remit sins, then why was it not enough, and why was there a need for a new baptism?
Because like all works, following the calling of God to an action is displaying faith. Faith saves.
The baptism of John was for repentance, and was to prepare the way for Christ.
Christ has now come, and has shed His Blood.
John had to decrease, that Christ would increase.
We follow Christ into the waters of repentance because He has called us to follow Him in it,
but the power is in the Blood, and not the ceremony or the water. The water is an act of faithfulness to the calling, not a condition of the calling.
Look at Titus 3:5,6 and see where the cleansing comes from.
Look to Hebrews 9:9-14 and see what action cleanses us. It is not cerimonial washing, but the sacrifice of Christ.
Lastly look at Hebrews 6:1-3.
Baptism is an elementary teaching that we must move past to attain maturity, but look at verse 3!
If the baptism of John could remit sins, then why was it not enough, and why was there a need for a new baptism?
Because like all works, following the calling of God to an action is displaying faith. Faith saves.
The baptism of John was for repentance, and was to prepare the way for Christ.
Christ has now come, and has shed His Blood.
John had to decrease, that Christ would increase.
We follow Christ into the waters of repentance because He has called us to follow Him in it,
but the power is in the Blood, and not the ceremony or the water. The water is an act of faithfulness to the calling, not a condition of the calling.
Look at Titus 3:5,6 and see where the cleansing comes from.
Look to Hebrews 9:9-14 and see what action cleanses us. It is not cerimonial washing, but the sacrifice of Christ.
Lastly look at Hebrews 6:1-3.
Baptism is an elementary teaching that we must move past to attain maturity, but look at verse 3!
1 Corinthians 10:2
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
You're right, we will need a cloud, sea, and a great wind
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
You're right, we will need a cloud, sea, and a great wind
The conclusion is this:
Like all good works we are called to do (providing for the poor and orphans and widows; caring for the sick; teaching and building up the Church; spreading the Gospel to the lost; abstaining from sin; seeking holiness and purity of heart; showing loving kindness to our brethren and neighbors), we are also called unto water baptism.
If a man does not gain the opportunity to do all these things before death, is he not saved?
We follow our calling.
If our life is cut short, was our calling cancelled? No.
Salvation is conditional upon faith,
and is beyond-conditional when dealing with expressing that faith.
Faith is received as a gift of God upon the hearing of His Word,
not upon receiving water baptism.
To even feel called to water baptism, one must first have faith.
And in the case of the thief on the cross, and the deathbed saints, that faith is enough.
Like all good works we are called to do (providing for the poor and orphans and widows; caring for the sick; teaching and building up the Church; spreading the Gospel to the lost; abstaining from sin; seeking holiness and purity of heart; showing loving kindness to our brethren and neighbors), we are also called unto water baptism.
If a man does not gain the opportunity to do all these things before death, is he not saved?
We follow our calling.
If our life is cut short, was our calling cancelled? No.
Salvation is conditional upon faith,
and is beyond-conditional when dealing with expressing that faith.
Faith is received as a gift of God upon the hearing of His Word,
not upon receiving water baptism.
To even feel called to water baptism, one must first have faith.
And in the case of the thief on the cross, and the deathbed saints, that faith is enough.
Why?
The Scripture is plain. Do you need both the power of water and the Blood to save you,
or the Blood alone?
The two agree, but only the Blood holds power.
Just like Noah, and the children of Israel,
their action showed their faith, and their faith was in God and His Plan.
His Plan was always Christ; so in having faith in God and His Plan, one has Faith in Christ.
Baptism in water is acting upon that faith.
Why back out now? You are coming closer maturity on this subject. Don't throw in the towel.
Ask the tough questions. Get it off your mind, and be released.
The Scripture is plain. Do you need both the power of water and the Blood to save you,
or the Blood alone?
The two agree, but only the Blood holds power.
Just like Noah, and the children of Israel,
their action showed their faith, and their faith was in God and His Plan.
His Plan was always Christ; so in having faith in God and His Plan, one has Faith in Christ.
Baptism in water is acting upon that faith.
Why back out now? You are coming closer maturity on this subject. Don't throw in the towel.
Ask the tough questions. Get it off your mind, and be released.
In Colossians 2:12, the context shows that baptism is presented as the New Testament counterpart of circumcision in the Old Testament. They are presented in a careful parallel to each other. Romans 2:28-29 shows clearly that it is not physical circumcision "made with hands" but spiritual circumcision which makes one truly a Jew and one of Abraham's children. Since baptism is the New Testament counterpart to circumcision in the Old Testament, we may therefore understand Romans 2:28-29 to have the same meaning in relation to baptism that it has in relation to circumcision: For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter, whose praise is not from men but from God. Why would circumcision be a sign and seal of the righteousness of faith of Abraham but not baptism for believers today?
In regards to Colossians 2:12 and Romans 6:4, Greek scholar AT Robertson explains it very nicely - In the symbol of baptism the resurrection to new life in Christ is pictured with an allusion to Christ's own resurrection and to our final resurrection. Paul does not mean to say that the new life in Christ is caused or created by the act of baptism. That is grossly to misunderstand him.
If you are looking for the specific word "symbol" spelled out next to baptism in scripture, you won't find it, just as you won't find the specific word "symbol" spelled out next to the words "eats my flesh and drinks my blood" (John 6:53-55). Does that mean the bread and wine during the Lord's Supper are literally Christ's body and blood or are they symbolic of His body and blood? Are you determined to believe that water baptism is more than a symbol of salvation and is also the reality?
In regards to Colossians 2:12 and Romans 6:4, Greek scholar AT Robertson explains it very nicely - In the symbol of baptism the resurrection to new life in Christ is pictured with an allusion to Christ's own resurrection and to our final resurrection. Paul does not mean to say that the new life in Christ is caused or created by the act of baptism. That is grossly to misunderstand him.
If you are looking for the specific word "symbol" spelled out next to baptism in scripture, you won't find it, just as you won't find the specific word "symbol" spelled out next to the words "eats my flesh and drinks my blood" (John 6:53-55). Does that mean the bread and wine during the Lord's Supper are literally Christ's body and blood or are they symbolic of His body and blood? Are you determined to believe that water baptism is more than a symbol of salvation and is also the reality?
I
I'm determined to Follow Christ, undoubtedly making mistakes along the way ( including theological ones ). So, Im not determined to believe one way or the other... I just see what I see in the scriptures.
It's interesting you bring up the symbolism of the body and blood of Christ along with baptism, as all of the ancient Christian traditions ( Catholic, Orthodox and others ) all believe exactly that.
In fact, as my original post points out, it is very recently ( a few hundred years ) that this belief that baptism and the purely symbolic nature of communion came on the theological scene. Completely unheard of until late reformation.
It's interesting you bring up the symbolism of the body and blood of Christ along with baptism, as all of the ancient Christian traditions ( Catholic, Orthodox and others ) all believe exactly that.
In fact, as my original post points out, it is very recently ( a few hundred years ) that this belief that baptism and the purely symbolic nature of communion came on the theological scene. Completely unheard of until late reformation.
We are literally baptized by one Spirit into one body (1 Corinthians 12:13). This is Spirit baptism, not water baptism. How does this happen? Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation --having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.
In what sense are we "water" baptized "into Christ?" In the same sense that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses" indicating their oneness, or solidarity, with him as their leader (1 Corinthians 10:2) just as through water baptism we indicate our oneness, or solidarity with Christ as our Savior. Now does 1 Corinthians 10:2 teach that the Israelites were "literally water baptized into the body of Moses?" Absolutely not.
The word "baptized" or "baptism" in scripture should not simply get a broad brushed definition of water baptized/baptism. In Luke 12:50, Jesus said - But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished! Of course Jesus was not distressed over water baptism, but was referring to a baptism of being immersed into suffering, namely His death on the cross.
In what sense are we "water" baptized "into Christ?" In the same sense that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses" indicating their oneness, or solidarity, with him as their leader (1 Corinthians 10:2) just as through water baptism we indicate our oneness, or solidarity with Christ as our Savior. Now does 1 Corinthians 10:2 teach that the Israelites were "literally water baptized into the body of Moses?" Absolutely not.
The word "baptized" or "baptism" in scripture should not simply get a broad brushed definition of water baptized/baptism. In Luke 12:50, Jesus said - But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished! Of course Jesus was not distressed over water baptism, but was referring to a baptism of being immersed into suffering, namely His death on the cross.
According to the Bible or according to tradition? Some church fathers believed in the physical presence of Christ in the Eucharist; others considered the elements as signs of the body and blood of Christ, and that His presence is spiritual. - Church Fathers and Transubstantiation
Roman Catholics love to point out that there was a general consensus among the Fathers that baptism was the instrument of regeneration and washing away of sin. That settles the question for the Roman Catholic, who is also amazed that Evangelical Christians have the audacity to disagree with the Fathers on this matter. It may come as a surprise that Catholics too do not follow the practice of the early church in the administration of this sacrament. For example it was common practice that the candidate was immersed three times, whereas the modern Catholic rite consists of pouring water on the head. Before baptism, the candidate was anointed with "oil of exorcism" while the presbyter prayed, "Let all spirits flee far away from you." Apart from the fact that there is no scriptural warrant for this anointing, they were also mistaken in their belief that this oil served for the remission of sins even before baptism:
Now this is blessed by the high priest for the remission of sins, and the first preparation for baptism. For he calls thus upon the unbegotten God, the Father of Christ, the King of all sensible and intelligible natures, that He would sanctify the oil in the name of the Lord Jesus, and impart to it spiritual grace and efficacious strength, the remission of sins, and the first preparation for the confession of baptism, that so the candidate for baptism, when he is anointed may be freed from all ungodliness, and may become worthy of initiation, according to the command of the Only-begotten (Apostolic Constitutions, XLII)
During baptism, the candidates had to remove their clothing and stand naked in the water. The newly baptized was not allowed to take a bath for a whole week. We do not feel obliged to follow the fathers in their unscriptural inventions, changing the simple ordinance of Christ into a superstition, not to mention their disregard for public decency. (See Tertullian, The Crown; St Hippolytus of Rome, The Apostolic Tradition). These are the same people who insisted on baptismal regeneration.
Roman Catholics also teach that before the Reformation, salvation through faith alone was unheard of. To the contrary we find:
Basil: "This is the true and perfect glorying in God, when a man is not lifted up on account of his own righteousness, but has known himself to be wanting in true righteousness and to be justified by faith alone in Christ."
Jerome: "When an ungodly man is converted, God justified him through faith alone, not on account of good works which he possessed not."
Chrysostom: "Again, they said that he who adhered to faith alone was cursed, but he shows that hewho adhered to Faith alone, is blessed."
Bernard of Clairvaux: "Shall not all our righteousness turn out to be mere unrighteousness and deficiency? What, then, shall it be concerning our sins, when not even our righteousness can answer for itself? Wherefore...let us flee, with all humility to Mercy which alone can save our souls...whoever hungers and thirsts after righteousness, let him believe in thee, who "justified the ungodly"; and thus, being justified by faith alone, he shall have peace with God."
I was reading an article in "The Ex-Catholic Journal" that says some of the writings attributed to the Church Fathers have been found to be forgeries, while others have been taken out of context. Doctrines such as the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the papacy, purgatory and transubstantiation are alleged to be supported in these early writings. I hear Roman Catholics quote the Church Fathers a lot to support their doctrines. The article went on to say that most of the copies of copies of copies of the Church Fathers that we possess today were copied during the time that the Roman Catholic church controlled the flow of literature in Europe. We do not have any original copies of their writings, only copies of copies of copies. God promised to preserve the Bible, but not fallible writings of men. I wouldn't be too quick to buy into any sales pitches made by the Roman Catholic church.
Roman Catholics love to point out that there was a general consensus among the Fathers that baptism was the instrument of regeneration and washing away of sin. That settles the question for the Roman Catholic, who is also amazed that Evangelical Christians have the audacity to disagree with the Fathers on this matter. It may come as a surprise that Catholics too do not follow the practice of the early church in the administration of this sacrament. For example it was common practice that the candidate was immersed three times, whereas the modern Catholic rite consists of pouring water on the head. Before baptism, the candidate was anointed with "oil of exorcism" while the presbyter prayed, "Let all spirits flee far away from you." Apart from the fact that there is no scriptural warrant for this anointing, they were also mistaken in their belief that this oil served for the remission of sins even before baptism:
Now this is blessed by the high priest for the remission of sins, and the first preparation for baptism. For he calls thus upon the unbegotten God, the Father of Christ, the King of all sensible and intelligible natures, that He would sanctify the oil in the name of the Lord Jesus, and impart to it spiritual grace and efficacious strength, the remission of sins, and the first preparation for the confession of baptism, that so the candidate for baptism, when he is anointed may be freed from all ungodliness, and may become worthy of initiation, according to the command of the Only-begotten (Apostolic Constitutions, XLII)
Roman Catholics also teach that before the Reformation, salvation through faith alone was unheard of. To the contrary we find:
Basil: "This is the true and perfect glorying in God, when a man is not lifted up on account of his own righteousness, but has known himself to be wanting in true righteousness and to be justified by faith alone in Christ."
Jerome: "When an ungodly man is converted, God justified him through faith alone, not on account of good works which he possessed not."
Chrysostom: "Again, they said that he who adhered to faith alone was cursed, but he shows that hewho adhered to Faith alone, is blessed."
Bernard of Clairvaux: "Shall not all our righteousness turn out to be mere unrighteousness and deficiency? What, then, shall it be concerning our sins, when not even our righteousness can answer for itself? Wherefore...let us flee, with all humility to Mercy which alone can save our souls...whoever hungers and thirsts after righteousness, let him believe in thee, who "justified the ungodly"; and thus, being justified by faith alone, he shall have peace with God."
I was reading an article in "The Ex-Catholic Journal" that says some of the writings attributed to the Church Fathers have been found to be forgeries, while others have been taken out of context. Doctrines such as the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the papacy, purgatory and transubstantiation are alleged to be supported in these early writings. I hear Roman Catholics quote the Church Fathers a lot to support their doctrines. The article went on to say that most of the copies of copies of copies of the Church Fathers that we possess today were copied during the time that the Roman Catholic church controlled the flow of literature in Europe. We do not have any original copies of their writings, only copies of copies of copies. God promised to preserve the Bible, but not fallible writings of men. I wouldn't be too quick to buy into any sales pitches made by the Roman Catholic church.
P
I am just getting into this discussion about “Is Water Baptism Required “ for ones Salvation.
We should all agree that the Scriptures do Not Contradict themselves.
The original question about where is the word “symbolize” is found in the Scriptures.
Iam3rd said “Again, I am looking for a scripture reference that says baptism is only a symbol that doesnt need to be done... not a conclusion you come to by reading various verses... Does the Bible actually say it ? Anywhere ? in any form or fashion ? “
Iam 3[SUP]rd[/SUP]; could you please give me your Definition of the word “GIFT”??
We should all agree that the Scriptures do Not Contradict themselves.
The original question about where is the word “symbolize” is found in the Scriptures.
Iam3rd said “Again, I am looking for a scripture reference that says baptism is only a symbol that doesnt need to be done... not a conclusion you come to by reading various verses... Does the Bible actually say it ? Anywhere ? in any form or fashion ? “
Iam 3[SUP]rd[/SUP]; could you please give me your Definition of the word “GIFT”??
