Baptism symbol only ?

[jody50]

I don't believe you will find a scripture that says baptism is only a symbol. In Acts 2:38 it is a command. "Repent and be baptized EVERY ONE OF YOU in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF YOUR SINS". It is a command and it removes your sins.
I Peter 3:21 says "Baptism does now SAVE us not the putting away of the filth of the flesh but an answer of a good conscience toward God.
In Acts you will find all the conversions they were baptized immediately.

 

[Nick01]

How does baptism being a symbol mean that "you only have to do it if you want"?

 

[homwardbound]

Home, many people get baptize and think well I'm holy know and I cannot sin, it's my job to tell them different and cause them to focus on the cross.

I got water Baptized, thought afterwards, I had to do the work, told to do it by Faith in Christ, but my own flesh deceived me, and convicted me I had to stop sin. And all I ended up doing as sinning all the more, putting others above and below me

1 Corinthians 1:12
What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

1 Corinthians 3:4
For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?

1 Corinthians 3:5
What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task.
1 Corinthians 3:6
I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow.
1 Corinthians 3:22
whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours,

1 Corinthians 4:6
Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.

 

[homwardbound]

and the thief on the cross got baptized when?

in the Spirit by Christ, one with Father. I bet if he had the opportunity after his belief he would have gotten water Baptized, not for man's Church membership. Rather as a good conscience towards God, in thanksgiving and praise

 

[homwardbound]

And what does being "in Christ" do for us ?

1. Ephesians 1:[SUP]7 [/SUP]In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace...

2. Thess 4:[SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

This is solid scripture... please listen!

Sorry, you do not see you have confused water and Spiritual Baptism from God. The gift of life is free, and it is in Spirit and truth for:
John 4:24 [Full Chapter]
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

 

[homwardbound]

Okay, I'll answer your question ( again ) even though you refuse to even acknowledge anything I say or ask you... but this will be the last time.

We are Justified by faith, Romans 5:1 "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we[SUP][a][/SUP] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

And works, James 2: [SUP]24 [/SUP]"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

Who's work? God's or mankind's?

 

[homwardbound]

How does baptism being a symbol mean that "you only have to do it if you want"?

When the day of judgment is here, what do you think God is going to judge?
Our Motive? or works
The world Judges works, by what I sees
God judges Motive

 

[sacraig67]

First of all IAm3rd I am not ignoring your questions as I have given you scripture as to my point. I showed you the words of Jesus himself as in John 14:6. You wanted scripture I have given it to you and actually one of your posts was "really that's all you got? I don't know what to say."
You said I need to look at scripture in whole. I think you need to follow your own words.
I believe if Jesus himself said "..except through me" he means that's the only way. Repenting our sins before God and asking Jesus to come into our lives.
Look at Titus 3:3-8 and Rev 1:5. In Titus it is the washing by the Holy Spirit. In Rev we are freed by His blood.
As for the whole works thing read Eph 2:1-10. We are called to do good work but not saved by our works.
Again I will say for those just entering...I do think we should be baptized as a public sign of our obedience to God and we should do good works as a show of our faith in God. But first we should not do either to kind of "show off" to man.
And I want to say something directly to IAm3rd....In no way do I question your faith to God. I can tell you are a man of God because if you weren't you wouldn't care less about this. Just because we have a difference here you should not question someone else's faith or tell them to check their faith as you did to me a couple of posts back. Now if I was saying something blatantly unBiblical that would be fine but not in this case. Please brother let's not drive a stake where it doesn't need driven. I have been civil even when I was called a "wolf in sheep's clothing" here (it wasn't by you).
Proverbs 3-5 "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding".
For the Glory of God!

 

[IAm3rd]

but my own flesh deceived me, and convicted me I had to stop sin.

ummm no... flesh does not 'convict anyone to stop sinning. That was the Holy Spirit.

 

[IAm3rd]

First of all IAm3rd I am not ignoring your questions as I have given you scripture as to my point. I showed you the words of Jesus himself as in John 14:6. You wanted scripture I have given it to you and actually one of your posts was "really that's all you got? I don't know what to say."
You said I need to look at scripture in whole. I think you need to follow your own words.
I believe if Jesus himself said "..except through me" he means that's the only way. Repenting our sins before God and asking Jesus to come into our lives.
Look at Titus 3:3-8 and Rev 1:5. In Titus it is the washing by the Holy Spirit. In Rev we are freed by His blood.
As for the whole works thing read Eph 2:1-10. We are called to do good work but not saved by our works.
Again I will say for those just entering...I do think we should be baptized as a public sign of our obedience to God and we should do good works as a show of our faith in God. But first we should not do either to kind of "show off" to man.
And I want to say something directly to IAm3rd....In no way do I question your faith to God. I can tell you are a man of God because if you weren't you wouldn't care less about this. Just because we have a difference here you should not question someone else's faith or tell them to check their faith as you did to me a couple of posts back. Now if I was saying something blatantly unBiblical that would be fine but not in this case. Please brother let's not drive a stake where it doesn't need driven. I have been civil even when I was called a "wolf in sheep's clothing" here (it wasn't by you).
Proverbs 3-5 "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding".
For the Glory of God!

Friend, Im afraid the bottom line is that you just do not understand what I'm saying. Of course Titus is talking about being washed by the Spirit... did you think I believed that our soul is somehow cleansed by physical water ?
As Peter said [SUP]in 1 Peter 3:20 [/SUP]to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, [SUP]21 [/SUP]and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.

 

[IAm3rd]

Who's work? God's or mankind's?

James 2:[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? [SUP]22 [/SUP]You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works..."

So, you tell me. Is it talking about our works or God's ? Was Abraham God ?

 

[sacraig67]

OK from what understand you are saying....along with the blood of Christ we have to be baptized to be saved. Is that correct?

 

[sacraig67]

In James 2:20-26 Abraham was justified by his faith not by his works. What James is doing here is explaining that our faith is shown by our actions.
For example I could say I have great faith but if it isn't seen by what I do my faith means nothing. Abraham had great faith and it was shown by his actions so God justifies him by his faith. It's the same with Rahab. It's by her faith.

 

[IAm3rd]

OK from what understand you are saying....along with the blood of Christ we have to be baptized to be saved. Is that correct?

No, Im saying we are saved by the grace of God alone, through a faith that acts and responds to the Gospel. Jesus said all who believe and are baptized will be saved... not me.
Believing the gospel, thats great... so do the demons. But will people OBEY the gospel ? thats the question... as I have shown, we are BAPTIZED into Christ. Romans 6:2-4 and Galatians 3:27-29.

 

[sacraig67]

We are baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit. We are baptized by water (as Jesus commands us in the great commision) as a sign of our faith to him.
If we take it as a thing we must do to be saved we have two problems:
1. Without assuming anything there is nowhere in the Bible that has the disciples (besides Paul) being baptized by anything but the Holy Spirit.
2. Was the blood of Jesus not enough to save us from our sins that we also have to do something else to be saved?
Do you see my point?

 

[homwardbound]

ummm no... flesh does not 'convict anyone to stop sinning. That was the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Sorry, it is from the Spirit of error from high places, shown above

John 16:7-11Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)[SUP]7 [/SUP]Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: [SUP]9 [/SUP]of sin, because they believe not on me; [SUP]10 [/SUP]of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.



John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 1:36
and looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

Romans 4:7
saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Ephesians 1:7
in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Ephesians 4:32
and be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.


The Spirit of truth is not convicting s on to stop sin, because flesh can't, and all sin is today condemned to flesh:

Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

The Holy Sprit of truth convicts, convinces us that at the cross Christ took all sin away, for us to presented to Father as if we are Holy
Colossians 1:22
in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:


Presented to Father, Justified= as if we never sinned, ready for the new life in Spirit and truth= Sanctified. Just ask and believe Father. and Father gives the new life that Christ came to give

Life is in the resurrected Christ not the dead one? And water Baptism dos not do this. Spirit Baptism does

Why did Paul in Acts, lay hands on the believers, that had not heard of the Spirit Baptism, only knew of John's?

Again which actually saves, water or Spirit? Water is a good conscience towards God
Praying or us all an trusting od in this
Romans 14:4
Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

 

[homwardbound]

James 2:[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? [SUP]22 [/SUP]You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works..."

So, you tell me. Is it talking about our works or God's ? Was Abraham God ?

Pretty good stretch at a twist, I Like it, good one

There are works of God, and there are s of mankind

Abraham's works were not of mankind not of his flesh, the works were by trusting (Faith) God the creator his life and showed us belief, not selfish to even hold his own Son back, from death

Where as the rich man held back giving up his riches, walked away unsaved, Matt. 19
if You do not give up all or God, how can you be saved?

Think this includes water Baptism, if not Spirit Baptized b Christ I the resurrected Christ?

Saved by the life the death. Death was needed firs though to cleanse the deck first, forgiven
Our consciences purged:
Hebrews 10:2
For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

Your conscience is not purged from sin, or is it?
Not if you or anyone still has to do to be or get

 

[IAm3rd]

We are baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit. We are baptized by water (as Jesus commands us in the great commision) as a sign of our faith to him.
If we take it as a thing we must do to be saved we have two problems:
1. Without assuming anything there is nowhere in the Bible that has the disciples (besides Paul) being baptized by anything but the Holy Spirit.
2. Was the blood of Jesus not enough to save us from our sins that we also have to do something else to be saved?
Do you see my point?

1. You have not, in the whole of this conversation once given a single scripture saying that baptism is for a "sign of our faith to Him". That is entirely something made up found nowhere in scripture. If that's the case please explain 1 Peter 3:20-21...

2. So, because there is no verse stating the apostles got baptized you choose to believe they didnt ? Jesus was baptized, and commands all to be baptized, but somehow the apostles weren't??? Give me a break...

3. Yes you have to DO something to be saved... YOU must believe... YOU must repent... YOU must obey the gospel, not simply say "I believe". The 'easy believism' you are stressing is...well, sickening.
Jesus says "He who DOES the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom" and you say NO!
Jesus says "He who believes and is baptized will be SAVED " and you say NO!

Jesus says if you will enter the Kingdom, GO and SELL all you have and pick up your cross and FOLLOW me.... and yet you sit there, fearing if you follow him you will be "earning" your salvation. You are so stuck in the false theology pastor Bob taught you deny the clear passages of scripture, in favor of doctrines taught NOWHERE in scripture.

Peter is telling you water baptism NOW SAVES YOU... and you dare to say no ? And teach your opinions to untold thousands that will see this thread in the future ? Who are you ?

Please, start addressing scripture. What does 1 Peter 3:20-21 mean ?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Mark 1:6-8 And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey; and preached, saying there cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. I indeed baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit.

Acts 1:4,5 And being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days hence.

Acts 11:15,16 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

John 7:37b-39 If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified). This is the baptism of Holy Spirit - being baptized with living water.

John 4:10,13,14 . . .If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him and he would have given thee living water. . . . . .Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

 

[IAm3rd]

I take it because you posted these verses you believe that Christians are all baptized with the Spirit, rather than water. Well, Like I asked the brother above you... please explain 1 Peter 3:20-21

Further, I will just copy and paste from an email I sent to another brother who had similar views. See what you think...


Baptism in the Holy spirit is not something that happens to someone upon believing in Christ, but rather is something that can happen to people AFTER they are Christians. It is an outpouring of the Holy Spirit by God upon believers to perform signs and wonders. Matt Slick says the same on CARM "​
Baptism of the Holy Spirit1 is a term used to describe a movement of the Spirit upon and/or within a believer usually sometime after the person is saved. ​"

( I mentioned Matt Slick here because my friend is a fan of his )


Look at this, Acts 8:[SUP]14 [/SUP]Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, [SUP]15 [/SUP]who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, [SUP]16 [/SUP]for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.


In the above verse we see that these people received the Word of God, and were already water baptized... but did not receive the HS until the Apostles laid hands on them sometime later ? There is a difference between the outpouring, or baptism, or the Spirit "falling upon" people, and the indwelling of the HS in all believers.


If your view was correct, then these believers would already have the Spirit. Baptism in the Spirit is something totally different than the indwelling. And this was done in ACTS to produce signs and wonders ( speaking in tongues etc )


Every time Jesus or John the baptist says you will be baptized in the Holy Spirit, they are talking TO THE APOSTLES... it is not promised to all believers. And that took place in the upper room, and a few other places in acts ( such as acts 10 ) as an outpouring by God to make people believe. In the case of Acts 10 it was to make Peter believe the Gospel was also for the Gentiles. ( see Acts 11 where Peter re tells the story )


With this in mind, you should be viewing all scripture about baptism as water baptism, for there is no reason to view them otherwise imo.


In Acts 22:12-16 we see that Pauls sins were not washed clean until he was baptized, 3 days AFTER his conversion on the road to Damascus! This is water baptism, as Ananias say "arise" and be baptized. Why arise ? The apostles recieved the baptism of the HS in the upper room while SITTING.


Peter is clearly talking about water baptism in 1 Peter 3:...
[SUP]20 [/SUP]because[SUP][e][/SUP] they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through WATER. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ
"


Now brother, you may not accept my view... but in light of Acts 8:14-17 you CANNOT continue believing in your view.


It is also worth noting that your view of water baptism simply being a symbol is not to be found in history until rather recently... Luther himself stated clearly the purpose of baptism


From the Lutheran Small Catechism-

What does Baptism give or profit?--Answer.​

It works forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare.​

Which are such words and promises of God? Answer.​

Christ, our Lord, says in the last chapter of Mark: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.