Baptism symbol only ?

newbirth · Sep 9, 2014

the scripture says and this water ...what water is it referring to?...it says this water symbolizes baptism...it does not say baptism is a symbol....read it carefully ...this water (flood) symbolizes baptism that now saves you also...not the removal of dirt from the body....but ...the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.....It (baptism) saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ....

The scripture cannot be more clear than that...

newbirth · Sep 9, 2014

SolidGround said:

The conclusion is this:
Like all good works we are called to do (providing for the poor and orphans and widows; caring for the sick; teaching and building up the Church; spreading the Gospel to the lost; abstaining from sin; seeking holiness and purity of heart; showing loving kindness to our brethren and neighbors), we are also called unto water baptism.
If a man does not gain the opportunity to do all these things before death, is he not saved?
We follow our calling.
If our life is cut short, was our calling cancelled? No.
Salvation is conditional upon faith,
and is beyond-conditional when dealing with expressing that faith.

Faith is received as a gift of God upon the hearing of His Word,
not upon receiving water baptism.
To even feel called to water baptism, one must first have faith.
And in the case of the thief on the cross, and the deathbed saints, that faith is enough.

your doctrine of man makes the word of God ineffective....faith comes by hearing ...but faith without works is dead...

directline2iam · Sep 9, 2014

p_rehbein said:

Ya know, if you wanted to be accurate about it you might start over by stating that baptism is NOT a symbol for anything.
WATER is the SYMBOL for baptism.....daaaaaa
And your FOUND HERE: 1. ..... feeds right into the NONE sense of the title of the OP.
Also, who are you to say Gods' Grace cannot be extended to an infant or young child? Christ rose from the dead for everyone. We don't decide for God ever. Maybe you should reread how the angel of death PASSED over the homes of infants who were saved by the blood when the Hebrews were enslaved to the Egyptians.
You have alot to learn about the love of God and perhaps should do more reading and less talking about things you don't understand.

PACEMAKER · Sep 9, 2014

IAm3rd said:

Iam3rd, Thanks for answering and I agree with your answer.
Would you also agree with this definition ?
A gift is something given to someone without the expectation of payment or doing something physically for the gift.
The gift is meant to be free.
And the Gift may be Accepted or Rejected..

I believe that you would agree that we all want the Honest Truth about what the Scriptures say..

Could you please clarify your position on “water baptism”?
You believe that we are Not Saved until we are “water baptized”?
Our sins are Not Forgiven until we are “water baptized” ?
At the moment we come up out of the water; we Receive “The Holy Spirit”?

And we have to go Completely Under water for it to be Scriptural Baptism?

PACEMAKER · Sep 9, 2014

newbirth said:

Newbirth If I am not mistaken, ALL the people in the “water “ died
None Saved
People in the boat were Saved by their Faith in GOD.

Can you show me a verse that says that there is " Power in the water” ?

Peter makes it clear in this verse that it is Not the Ritual itself that saves, but the fact that by
our clear conscience we are united with Christ in His resurrection through faith,
“our Pledge toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” Jesus Saves...

4enlightment · Sep 10, 2014

newbirth said:

Yes, this living water, that will pour down upon us like a dove will cleanse us from sinful desires. But what baptism that you are referring too? the Baptism of John, or the Batism by Christ? John used water, but Christ uses the Spirit and fire.

4enlightment · Sep 10, 2014

But I will run to John for my Baptism, but I'm not going to mess with that fire; but I can tell that you are not going to go through the fire for nobody either.

IAm3rd · Sep 10, 2014

4enlightment said:

4enlightment... I see a pattern with you taking scripture out of context. What is meant by "fire" in the verse you reference? Lets look...

[SUP]Matthew 3: 11 [/SUP]“I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. [SUP]12 [/SUP]His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

You see ? If you just read the next verse you see the "fire" is talking about God's wrath... context, context, context!

You did the same thing with the symbolize word in 1 Peter, but didn't acknowledge it. READ THE WHOLE TEXT

4enlightment · Sep 10, 2014

IAm3rd said:

And so what does that has to do with Baptism? So then I better not be Baptize in the name of Jesus, since He is going to toss us into the flames.

Isaiah 4:4 The Lord will wash away the filth of the women of Zion; he will cleanse the bloodstains from Jerusalem by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of fire.

IAm3rd · Sep 10, 2014

4enlightment said:

Yes, Judgment and fire... this is not a good thing.

Baptism means immerse... He is saying that God will immerse the "chaff" in judgmental fire. [SUP]12 [/SUP]His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

4enlightment · Sep 10, 2014

IAm3rd said:

Yes, Judgment and fire... this is not a good thing.

Baptism means immerse... He is saying that God will immerse the "chaff" in judgmental fire. [SUP]12 [/SUP]His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

So, what does the chaff represent?

IAm3rd · Sep 10, 2014

4enlightment said:

Again, the context tells us... verse 7 says who he is speaking to.
Matthew 3:[SUP]7 [/SUP]But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Again, here we see he is speaking of wrath.

IAm3rd · Sep 10, 2014

PACEMAKER said:

I understand the point you are getting at... that somehow baptism for salvation would be working for salvation, when salvation comes by "faith alone" right ?
Well, our faith is completed by our works, and completely dead without them. ( James 2 ) Baptism is not any more of a work than repentance, or praying to "receive Christ into your heart"or whatever you DO to respond to grace.

As for your other questions, I know Paul's sins were not washed away until he was baptized. Im not limiting the grace of God, but we need to be obedient to what we see in scripture.

Jason0047 · Sep 10, 2014

The Scriptures say,

"Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Galatians 3:2).

Read Acts chapter 10. It talks about how believers had received the Spirit before baptism. If you have the the Spirit you are saved. Also, the thief on the cross was not baptized and he was saved. John the Baptist had the Spirit when he was within the womb.

IAm3rd · Sep 10, 2014

Jason0047 said:

Thanks Jason, those topics have been covered 9 or 10 pages back.

Jason0047 · Sep 10, 2014

IAm3rd said:

Sorry. I believe you are still ignoring the points I made. Can you have the Spirit and not be saved? Were they saved before they received the Command to be baptized? Do you know that there are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death? (1 John 5:16-18).

In other words, we do not enter the body of Christ or enter the Kingdom of God at baptism. We enter the kingdom of God by being born again. For we are born of the Spirit by the washing of the regeneration of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5). We are born of water by the washing of the Word (i.e. the Written Word of God) (Ephesians 5:25, 26). For faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17); And we know this process of being born again is a belief on Jesus Christ.

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13).

For there are no saved believers that are outside the body of Christ. For Christ is the head of the body. No one is saved if they are not born again and or if they have not become a true son of God (spiritually by the power of God). For becoming a son of God means that you are a part of the body.

For Jesus baptized with the Holy Spirit and with fire (Matthew 3:11).

And water baptism was merely the outward showing of that. For Jesus baptizing a person by the Spirit and fire is where a person is given a new heart and a new spirit (i.e. to be born again and to be a new creature in Christ) (cf. Ezekiel 36:26, 27).

Just as circumcision was an outward showing that you had been circumcised in your heart in the Old Testament by God (i.e. to be born again). For there were inward Jews and outward Jews. The inward Jews were people like the disciples. The outward Jews were the Pharisees.

I mean...

Have you ever reached a point where you felt helpless and trapped?
Have you ever just asked God to let Him help you because you felt powerless?
Have you ever just said "Lord, I can't do this" ?
Have you ever said: "I need your help, this is beyond me"?
Have you ever said:"I surrender my all to you Lord"?
Have you ever said anything like this?

For the Lord wants us to rely on Him for our everything. For if we can help God to save ourselves, then we can pat ourselves on the back and we could eventually start to feel that we would not need anything from God. For if we trusted in our own efforts and works and not in God working thru us, then what would be the purpose of prayer? Could you not do it all yourself and then just imagine God was helping you? What about praying to the Lord and seeking His will? What about surrendering your ALL to Him? For if we truly saved ourselves in any way, then we would be our own self made man or savior who would truly end up in saving ourselves instead of God. We would be our own co-saviors with Christ. For if we shared in the glory of God saving us, then God (Jesus) does not get all of the glory. For Jesus said there is NONE good but God. This means that God is doing the good within you.

In fact, the belief that you have to help God in saving yourself sort of reminds me of what Jesus said to the Laodicean church.

Revelation 3:17
"Because you say, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and know not that you are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:"

For when you believe you can help God to save yourself, it will eventually lead to a point where you will not need God at all because you are working so much of your own human effort to have the assurance of eternal life. God will eventually just take second place in your salvation because you are working so hard to save yourself. When in reality, the salvation and redemption has already been accomplished by Jesus Christ. For anyone can have the assurance of salvation any time they want thru repentance and or trusting in Him as their Savior.

For when you trust in a self directed works based salvation, you are trusting in the good in what you do (When you still fall from time to time). For if you break one Law, you are guilty of breaking them all. Only Jesus perfectly kept the Law and can be your sinless substitute.

Now, does that mean you can live a life without holiness and or fruitful works? No, of course not. For a true faith will eventually produce good works or fruit. This is because a person who is truly born of God will abide with the Lord and let Him do the good work within them. For Jesus (not ourselves) is the author and finisher of our faith.

newbirth · Sep 10, 2014

PACEMAKER said:

Yes they were saved by their faith in God.....How did it happen? Did they not obey God ....would they have been saved outside the boat????
If God says you must be baptised ,you cannot tell God water cannot save you...What did baptism do for Christ?...Did he not obey God and was baptised....What matters is your obedience Naaman...not your intellect and wisdom of man......you cannot have a clear conscience and unity with Christ in blatant disobedience , denial of his word and teaching false doctrine....

newbirth · Sep 10, 2014

4enlightment said:

who gave you authority to change the word?....what did Peter say? ...Is he lying? did he say be baptised in the name of John?
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Jason0047 · Sep 10, 2014

All unrighteousness is sin (1 John 5:17); And how do we get cleansed of all unrighteousness?

"f we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us oursins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9)

A passage in Titus chapter 3 refutes both "Antinomianism" (i.e. The ignoring of God's moral Laws) and "Works Salvation" (or salvation by a "To Do List" or salvation by human effort) rather than by God's grace.

Titus 3:3-8
"For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men."

Also, who was more justified in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee? (Luke 18:9-14).

Was it the Tax Collector who cried out to God to have mercy on the fact that he was a sinner?

Or was it the Pharisee who was self righteous and thought he was better than the Tax Collector?

Also, Jesus said to the woman caught in the act of adultery that he did not condemn her. Meaning she was saved. But Jesus did not give her a license to sin, though. For he told her to "sin no more."

Jesus said to people that their sins were forgiven. This did not involve any baptism when he told them this.

Jason0047 · Sep 10, 2014

I believe the confusion arises on the faith vs. works topic because folks do not understand who "does the good work." Okay, so who does the "good work" in a believer's life? Is it God? Or is it the believer? Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10 KJV
Hebrews 12:1, 2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22, 23, 24 (cf. Matthew 7:16, 18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26, 27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

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