Baptismal Regeneration of Infants

[Chica]

Behold I will create new heavens and a new Earth...

Revelation 3:12*NIV

12*Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name....to him who overcomes is anyone who overcame by CHRIST

Revelation 21:1*NIV

1*Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

Revelation 21:2*NIV

2*I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

Like I said, it's not an Earthly home....

Your mixing apples with oranges. New Jerusalem and Jesus's earthly Messianic Kingdom are two different things. Read Rev.20 where satan is bound for a thousand years and where John sees the tribulation martyrs coming back to life and reigning with Jesus for a thousand years.

Jesus told them in a parable as He was nigh to Jerusalem because they thought the Kingdom of God was going to appear immediately about a nobleman who went to a far country to recieve Kingdom for himself and return. Luke 19:11,12.

Jesus is the nobleman who has gone into a far country (Heaven), to recieve his kingdom. Jesus was born King of the Jews, but, he doesn't actually become King until He takes the Throne. At present He is engaged in His High Priestly funtions, and is seated at the right hand of the Father on His throne.

 

[Chica]

I agree, but you forget, he said he is coming back to take us somewhere first....John 14:3*"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and*take you*to be with me that you also may be where I am."

And

1 Thessalonians 4:17*NIV

17*After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to*meet the Lord*in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Now your confusing the Church with physical Israel.

 

[Chica]

Chica I'm confused, are you saying the shepherd with the sheep being saved on a day of clouds and darkness, who are led out to pasture by the shepherd is not us?

The sheep listen to his voice, they go out and find pasture, he fulfilled Ezekiel 34.

He is the gate for the flock to enter the sheep pen period. Ezekiel 34 is absolutely about the flock entering into the Israel above, that is the ONLY place the shepherd said the gate leads to.

Yes I am, Could very well be Matt.24:31 because Eze.20:34-38 looks forward to Israel's final regathering from its final worldwide Diaspora for Kingdom blessing. Rebels will be purged out during the Great Tribulation and it will determine the Israelites that will be saved and enter the Kingdom to reign with Jesus Christ for a thousand years.

For in mine holy mountain, in the mountain of the height of Israel, saith the Lord God, there shall all the house of Israel, all of them in the land, serve me: there will I accept them, and there will I require your offerings, and the first fruits of your obalations, with all your holy things. 20:40

 

[sltaylor]

Your mixing apples with oranges. New Jerusalem and Jesus's earthly Messianic Kingdom are two different things. Read Rev.20 where satan is bound for a thousand years and where John sees the tribulation martyrs coming back to life and reigning with Jesus for a thousand years.

Jesus told them in a parable as He was nigh to Jerusalem because they thought the Kingdom of God was going to appear immediately about a nobleman who went to a far country to recieve Kingdom for himself and return. Luke 19:11,12.

Jesus is the nobleman who has gone into a far country (Heaven), to recieve his kingdom. Jesus was born King of the Jews, but, he doesn't actually become King until He takes the Throne. At present He is engaged in His High Priestly funtions, and is seated at the right hand of the Father on His throne.

Well aren't there those who are taken up with Christ who come back with him?

 

[Chica]

Well aren't there those who are taken up with Christ who come back with him?

Yes, At the resurrection the dead in Christ (believers) rise first and the living are caught up with them in the clouds. 1Thess.4:16,17

 

[mwc68]

Psalm 51:5 This verse deals with two issues, the second one can be dealt with on another thread. The first issue deals with sin. King David claims he was born with sin, not an innocent baby as so many have claimed on this thread. Baptism specifically gets rid of this sin. It washes the sin away. Baptism is not a symbol or sign. No where does the bible state that baptism is an "outer sign of an inner change". The bible does state that baptism is for the cleansing or remission of sin. This "outer.......inner" doctrine is man made, excludes the real purpose of baptism and is dangerous.

 

[directline2iam]

Elisabeth had a child in her womb namely john the baptist and....THE BABY LEAPED FOR JOY...how does a child stull in the womb UNDERSTAND what joy is?

 

[Chica]

Yes, At the resurrection the dead in Christ (believers) rise first and the living are caught up with them in the clouds. 1Thess.4:16,17

Well aren't there those who are taken up with Christ who come back with him?

Big OOPS, it was late when I posted and I gave you information on the rapture. Read 1Cor.15 for info on the resurrection.

 

[sltaylor]

Psalm 51:5 This verse deals with two issues, the second one can be dealt with on another thread. The first issue deals with sin. King David claims he was born with sin, not an innocent baby as so many have claimed on this thread. Baptism specifically gets rid of this sin. It washes the sin away. Baptism is not a symbol or sign. No where does the bible state that baptism is an "outer sign of an inner change". The bible does state that baptism is for the cleansing or remission of sin. This "outer.......inner" doctrine is man made, excludes the real purpose of baptism and is dangerous.

This is the real purpose of baptism:

Repentance is for the forgiveness of sin not the water, this is what the water is:

1 Peter 3:21*"and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a*good conscience*toward God."

So to be clear, it's saying the flood, which cleansed the world of evil, symbolized the water baptism, not the outward removal of dirt and impurities, but the pledging of a good conscience towards God.

Johns baptism wasnt just being dunked in the Jordan, what happened to a person before they stepped into that river? They had listened to John and repented and the stepping in the water was a pledge of that repentance. The water wasn't for the forgiveness, repentance was. That is pretty clear by what Mark and Paul and Luke said.

*And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a*baptism of ***repentance***for the ***forgiveness*** of sins.

Luke 3:3*He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a*baptism of **repentance*for the forgiveness** of sins.

So you have repentance and a pledging of a good conscience and water, all aspects of Johns baptism. How many of those three can an infant do on his own accord?

And I'm not asking that out of spite or anything, but there were three conditions of the baptism, repentance, pledging, and water. To say a child can meet all of those is not true.

Jesus said clean the inside of the dish and the whole dish will be clean. The water cannot touch what is inside our body, so what is it that cleanses our hearts?

 

[sltaylor]

Big OOPS, it was late when I posted and I gave you information on the rapture. Read 1Cor.15 for info on the resurrection.

Its cool, I knew where it was anyways. Lol

 

[mwc68]

This is the real purpose of baptism:

Repentance is for the forgiveness of sin not the water, this is what the water is:

1 Peter 3:21*"and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a*good conscience*toward God."

So to be clear, it's saying the flood, which cleansed the world of evil, symbolized the water baptism, not the outward removal of dirt and impurities, but the pledging of a good conscience towards God.

Johns baptism wasnt just being dunked in the Jordan, what happened to a person before they stepped into that river? They had listened to John and repented and the stepping in the water was a pledge of that repentance. The water wasn't for the forgiveness, repentance was. That is pretty clear by what Mark and Paul and Luke said.

*And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a*baptism of ***repentance***for the ***forgiveness*** of sins.

Luke 3:3*He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a*baptism of **repentance*for the forgiveness** of sins.

So you have repentance and a pledging of a good conscience and water, all aspects of Johns baptism. How many of those three can an infant do on his own accord?

And I'm not asking that out of spite or anything, but there were three conditions of the baptism, repentance, pledging, and water. To say a child can meet all of those is not true.

Jesus said clean the inside of the dish and the whole dish will be clean. The water cannot touch what is inside our body, so what is it that cleanses our hearts?

Yes, you are talking of John's Baptism as he paved the way. How do you explain the whole households that were baptized in the Book of Acts? These were big households and obviously there were children and infants there. Can you please show the scripture that says infant baptism is forbidden?

 

[sltaylor]

Yes, you are talking of John's Baptism as he paved the way. How do you explain the whole households that were baptized in the Book of Acts? These were big households and obviously there were children and infants there. Can you please show the scripture that says infant baptism is forbidden?

I'm not saying it is or isn't forbidden, I'm saying what the ORIGINAL BAPTISM was in the first place according to scripture.

By scripture John preached a baptism of Repentace for the forgiveness of sins.

To say John simply preached a baptism of water, it denies the fact that the Other half of what John preached was repentance for forgiveness accompanied WITH THE water.

He is the voice calling out make straight paths, that means change your ways from wandering, to a straight and narrow path. Repent and be saved. It wasn't just about the water, it was mainly about repenting, because as Paul says, Godly sorrow LEADS to repentance, which LEADS to salvation.

What you are saying is that every child since this practice started, grew up perfect, and automatically pledging this good concience towards God which you and I both know is a big fat lie.

How many of these children grow up and decide for themselves they may not even believe in God? How many grow up and decide they were living wrong and realize they need to repent and be baptized again? How many grow up thinking they were saved from this act and never repent of the things they did after they actually realized what was going on in regard to sin and righteousness?



So I will ask, can you show me a scripture where a child without the ability to speak, repented and was saved? Cause that is what John said to do right, repent all of you and be baptized.

 

[mwc68]

I'm not saying it is or isn't forbidden, I'm saying what the ORIGINAL BAPTISM was in the first place according to scripture.

By scripture John preached a baptism of Repentace for the forgiveness of sins.

To say John simply preached a baptism of water, it denies the fact that the Other half of what John preached was repentance for forgiveness accompanied WITH THE water.

He is the voice calling out make straight paths, that means change your ways from wandering, to a straight and narrow path. Repent and be saved. It wasn't just about the water, it was mainly about repenting, because as Paul says, Godly sorrow LEADS to repentance, which LEADS to salvation.

What you are saying is that every child since this practice started, grew up perfect, and automatically pledging this good concience towards God which you and I both know is a big fat lie.

How many of these children grow up and decide for themselves they may not even believe in God? How many grow up and decide they were living wrong and realize they need to repent and be baptized again? How many grow up thinking they were saved from this act and never repent of the things they did after they actually realized what was going on in regard to sin and righteousness?



So I will ask, can you show me a scripture where a child without the ability to speak, repented and was saved? Cause that is what John said to do right, repent all of you and be baptized.

Acts 16:14-15

 

[directline2iam]

When satin accuses us before Father who is there SPEAKING FOR US? When the Holy Spirit which ALL have a measure ofprays to Father in a language not UNDERSTOOD BY THE SMARTEST MAN ...ON OUR BEHALF!!! Who is in us...Yes this is Jesus in us who acknowledging this baptism doesn't seem to have a problem with it...why would anyone Go against the Word

 

[directline2iam]

Do you understand why John the baptist said repent ALL OF YOU and DIDN'T say repent all of you and your infant children? Because ALL INCLUDES INFANT CHILDREN

Its really a shame that so many people on here and else don't really UNDERSTAND what God is ABLE to do and of a certainty DOES do

 

[sltaylor]

Acts 16:14-15

So her and her household was saved. Says nothing about the age. She could have been old/young, her children could have been grown, or young. That doesn't really say anything about an infant. I can see why you would you that when speaking of households, bit again, they could have been older, it doesn't say anything else about the age of the household.

 

[sltaylor]

Acts 16:14-15

So her and her household was saved. Says nothing about the age. She could have been old/young, her children could have been grown, or young. That doesn't really say anything about an infant. I can see why you would think that when speaking of households, bit again, they could have been older, it doesn't say anything else about the age of the household.

Again the technicality is, can an infant repent?
John said repent all of you and be saved, so what is the act of repenting?

1re·pent
\ri-ˈpent\verb: to feel or show that you are sorry for something bad or wrong that you did and that you want to do what is right

Full Definition
intransitive verb
1:to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
2a*:to feel regret or contrition
b*:to change one's mind

transitive verb
1:to cause to feel regret or contrition
2:to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for

So how can an infant do this, as the post said above, he included everyone in this act, so how does one do this as an infant, without the ability to realize ones own sin, and feel guilt?

 

[mwc68]

So her and her household was saved. Says nothing about the age. She could have been old/young, her children could have been grown, or young. That doesn't really say anything about an infant. I can see why you would think that when speaking of households, bit again, they could have been older, it doesn't say anything else about the age of the household.

Again the technicality is, can an infant repent?
John said repent all of you and be saved, so what is the act of repenting?

1re·pent
\ri-ˈpent\verb: to feel or show that you are sorry for something bad or wrong that you did and that you want to do what is right

Full Definition
intransitive verb
1:to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
2a*:to feel regret or contrition
b*:to change one's mind

transitive verb
1:to cause to feel regret or contrition
2:to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for

So how can an infant do this, as the post said above, he included everyone in this act, so how does one do this as an infant, without the ability to realize ones own sin, and feel guilt?

Once again you fail to show were infant baptism is forbidden. All you have shown is a man made doctrine of conditional baptism. I see no prohibition against infants, and I thought y'all followed the bible. I guess you just make it up when you want to. I have provided scripture for my view and not one of you can provide scripture for the prohibition of baptizing infants

 

[sltaylor]

The act of repenting wasn't just a new testament ideal, God tells Israel and sinners to repent throughout the old testament.

When we get to the NT we see this act of repentance leading to salvation, which involves also believing in the one he sent to attain such salvation because such salvation comes no other way.

These Hebrews who first heard Johns message were not simply hearing repent for the first time, what was different was the one coming AFTER John and believing in him. Remember that was A HUGE part of his message, as witnessed by him pointing out Christ and recognizing Christ before all his listeners as the ONE he was talking about.

So in the NT you have the traditional act of repentance accompanied with faith in Christ and a pledge to serve the son through the spiritual act of obedience to the spirit he sends.

So it is important to know the context in which the first hearers were associating Johns message.
1# repent
In the Torah repentance is an active process. To regret doing something alone without changing your way or making amends is NOT to repent. The Hebrew word for repent is teshuvah. “Teshuvah” is the word for repent which comprises the two steps involved, nicham (to feel regret or sorrow) and shuv (to return) `When a man or woman wrongs another in any way and so is unfaithful to the Eternal, that person is guilty and must confess the sin he has committed. He must make full restitution for his wrong, add one fifth to it and give it all to the person he has wronged. [Numbers 5:6-7] 30:8 You will repent and obey God, keeping all His commandments, as I prescribe them to you today.

#2 Being baptised, this water represented the removal of evil from the first world by water, not the filth of the outer man as in a washing and cleansing of dirt, but it cleanses the inside of the dish, and shows a pledge of good conscience to serve the one he sent, which is Christ and the spirit in us.

That is the original act of repenting and being baptised into Christ.

 

[sltaylor]

Once again you fail to show were infant baptism is forbidden. All you have shown is a man made doctrine of conditional baptism. I see no prohibition against infants, and I thought y'all followed the bible. I guess you just make it up when you want to. I have provided scripture for my view and not one of you can provide scripture for the prohibition of baptizing infants

Actually I can but it would be too many to show. Show me one place where the message Christ gave for his disciples to give to the world didn't involve REPENTANCE to be SAVED.

You want me to believe infant Baptism is all the disciples were told to tell the world, because according to you that's all a person has to do to be saved from birth. Why didn't the gospel just declare to bring your children to be baptised and none of this other stuff will ever need to worried about.
But no where does it say any of that,
Jesus said repent,
John said repent,
The disciples were told to give the message of the Gospel which was REPENT, for the kingdom of heaven is near.
Paul says John baptism was a baptism of repentance.

The act of being saved ALWAYS involved repenting and believing on the one he sent, neither of which an infant can do.

So I guess show me where someone else can pledge a good conscious for someone else without that person owning up to their own sin.

Being saved, according to the message of the kingdom always involved repentance, period.