Baptismal Regeneration of Infants

[psychomom]

Lutheranism is clear on that baptism without faith avails nothing. It is for believers, it is for the Elect and their children. At the end of the day lutheranism and (covenantal) calvinism are not very far from each other on this issue.

i guess you would call 'our' church covenantal canvinist?
(which, tbh, is where i should be asking these questions!)

we consider it as circumcision was...a sign of the covenant.
because in God's providence, not every child born is born to Christian parents.
not every child has the advantages of the graces afforded in church attendance and being taught the Word from the jump.

am i even close on this?

 

[SarahM777]

You see Sarah, most folks of our day are caught up with rationalism. What cannot be understood by "reason" cannot be believed. For these people, faith equals intellectual consent. Having to be articulated in a certain way that they deem rational. It's quite far from the biblical records of how God worked in His creation.

In communion the emblems of Christ's body and blood are presented unto us, No! screams the rationalists, it is symbolic! We aren't cannibals! In baptism the believing parents of a child carry it to the priest or minister to receive baptism, and take upon themselves to instruct that blessed child to walk the way of God. No! screams the rationalists, the child cannot believe! It doesn't even know left from right! It has to make a decision first! Regarding confession and absolution the rationalists scream No! Only God can forgive sins! (Sounds familiar, eh?).

Thus the rationalists condemn the sacraments as "invalid". In unbelief.

Faith in scripture is a matter a the heart. Even a new born infant knows their mother,that child can not articulate love but that child will close their hand on their mothers fingers. That child also knows the difference between their mother and a stranger. Why would it be any different for that child to know their heavenly Father in the same manner?

 

[mwc68]

although we do baptize babies at the church we attend.

it's always moving, and very meaningful. ♥

In the book of Acts we read about whole houeholds being baptized. It does not say all except infants. just not there

 

[sltaylor]

Here are verses talking about what Johns baptism is;
Mark 1:4*And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a*baptism of repentance*for the forgiveness of sins.

Luke 3:3*He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a*baptism of repentance*for the forgiveness of sins.

Acts 13:24*Before the coming of Jesus, John preached repentance and baptism to all the people of Israel.

Acts 19:4 Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus."

Four scriptures says Johns baptism was a baptism of repentance....this is the very reason why Baptism was happeneing IN THE FIRST PLACE, the voice of one calling out "make straight paths".... (change your ways), John was preaching a baptism OF REPENTANCE, so what is repentance?

Repentance[1]*is the activity of*reviewing one's actions*and feeling*contrition*or regret for past wrongs.[2]*It generally[citation needed]involves a commitment to personal change and resolving to live a more responsible and humane life. The practice of repentance plays an important role in the*soteriological doctrines*of the world's major religions where it is considered necessary for the attainment of*salvation. In religious contexts it often involves an act of*confession*to a spiritual elder (such as a monk or priest). This typically includes an admission of*guilt, a promise or resolve not to repeat the offense; an attempt to make restitution for the wrong, or in some way to reverse the harmful effects of the wrong where possible.*

So where is it elsewhere in scripture, this following verse proves there is a difference in the acknowledgement of one's sin and the very ACT of REPENTANCE itself?
A: Job 34:31*"Suppose a man says to God, 'I am guilty*but will offend no more.*32*Teach me what I cannot see;if I have done wrong, I will not do so again.'*33*Should God then reward you on your terms, when you refuse to repent?*

There is an ACT OF REPENTANCE, a humbling of one's self and a conscious acknowledgement of HURTING GOD BY ONES ACTIONS.

This usually comes with tears, when one understands how his actions actually HURT GOD. This sorrow leads to true repentance and paves the way for the holy spirit....
2nd Corinthians 7:9-"yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation*and leaves no regret."


So what is the water, what does it have to do with baptism and repentance?
A: 1st Peter 3:21-"and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you*also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge*of a good conscience*toward God."

The water doesn't clean ones outward body, it's the 'inside of the dish' that needs to be cleaned, it is a circumcision of the heart and a pledge of conciousness to obey the spirit and not the flesh, but repentance requires an acknowledgment of wrong, a humbling of one's self, a pledge of a good concious, which all requires the ability to differentiate between what is right and wrong.

 

[Stephen63]

I am amazed that people who call themselves saints believe in infant baptism for regeneration for so many reasons:

John 14:5-6 (KJV) [SUP]5 [/SUP]Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? [SUP]6 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

You'd think that would be plain enough.

Acts 4:11-12 (KJV) [SUP]11 [/SUP]This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

According to John the Baptist, repentence comes before baptism. If there's no repentence, it's just a wet ritual.

Imagine this..... baptismal regeneration FORCES religion upon a child without a personal choice. Who do we know that forces people to accept their religion without choice? How about the Antichrist?

We all know where infant baptism came from..... where most of this dunghill doctrine comes from..... the RCC. Why would anyone in their right mind believe anything that comes from the seven hills of Rome?

Nearly all of such doctrines have one thing in common: to steer people away from the work of Christ on the cross, granting salvation thru other means..... Such doctrine is spiritual adultery, & such beliefs come from one of the many daughter religions of the Great Whore of Babylon.

 

[mwc68]

although we do baptize babies at the church we attend.

it's always moving, and very meaningful. ♥

I am amazed that people who call themselves saints believe in infant baptism for regeneration for so many reasons:

John 14:5-6 (KJV) [SUP]5 [/SUP]Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? [SUP]6 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

You'd think that would be plain enough.

Acts 4:11-12 (KJV) [SUP]11 [/SUP]This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

According to John the Baptist, repentence comes before baptism. If there's no repentence, it's just a wet ritual.

Imagine this..... baptismal regeneration FORCES religion upon a child without a personal choice. Who do we know that forces people to accept their religion without choice? How about the Antichrist?

We all know where infant baptism came from..... where most of this dunghill doctrine comes from..... the RCC. Why would anyone in their right mind believe anything that comes from the seven hills of Rome?

Nearly all of such doctrines have one thing in common: to steer people away from the work of Christ on the cross, granting salvation thru other means..... Such doctrine is spiritual adultery, & such beliefs come from one of the many daughter religions of the Great Whore of Babylon.

Oh wow! God Bless you anyway!

 

[dcontroversal]

What about John the baptist?

Book, chapter and verse that states verbatim that John was immersed as an infant or child....as a matter of fact he came to JESUS as an ADULT and made mention of needing to be immersed BY JESUS...HE NEVER WAS BAPTISED (IMMERSED) as the LAW and the Prophets were until JOHN and he was not under the New Covenant, but was the transitional hinge pin between the Law and Prophets and the Age that would come to be labeled the church age!

 

[tribesman]

i guess you would call 'our' church covenantal canvinist?
(which, tbh, is where i should be asking these questions!)

Yes. Since the church you attend baptizes infants it is a covenantal church.

we consider it as circumcision was...a sign of the covenant.

That is good old presbyterian doctrine and I am alright with that statement. However, I see baptism as more than so. So I'd be closer to the episcopalian and lutheran view on this, as well as the other sacraments.

because in God's providence, not every child born is born to Christian parents.
not every child has the advantages of the graces afforded in church attendance and being taught the Word from the jump.

am i even close on this?

You are on it and I agree.

 

[SarahM777]

Book, chapter and verse that states verbatim that John was immersed as an infant or child....as a matter of fact he came to JESUS as an ADULT and made mention of needing to be immersed BY JESUS...HE NEVER WAS BAPTISED (IMMERSED) as the LAW and the Prophets were until JOHN and he was not under the New Covenant, but was the transitional hinge pin between the Law and Prophets and the Age that would come to be labeled the church age!

DC please go back and read what it was addressing. I asked if John the Baptist was BORN AGAIN before being born.

 

[Stephen63]

I am amazed that people who call themselves saints believe in infant baptism for regeneration for so many reasons:

John 14:5-6 (KJV) [SUP]5 [/SUP]Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? [SUP]6 [/SUP]Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

You'd think that would be plain enough.

Acts 4:11-12 (KJV) [SUP]11 [/SUP]This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

According to John the Baptist, repentence comes before baptism. If there's no repentence, it's just a wet ritual.

Imagine this..... baptismal regeneration FORCES religion upon a child without a personal choice. Who do we know that forces people to accept their religion without choice? How about the Antichrist?

We all know where infant baptism came from..... where most of this dunghill doctrine comes from..... the RCC. Why would anyone in their right mind believe anything that comes from the seven hills of Rome?

Nearly all of such doctrines have one thing in common: to steer people away from the work of Christ on the cross, granting salvation thru other means..... Such doctrine is spiritual adultery, & such beliefs come from one of the many daughter religions of the Great Whore of Babylon.

Matthew 15:8-9 (KJV) [SUP]8 [/SUP]This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. [SUP]9 [/SUP]But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

 

[sltaylor]

In the book of Acts we read about whole houeholds being baptized. It does not say all except infants. just not there

And why were those people walking into the water in the first place? Did they realize they were wrong and we're pledging a good concious before God? Yes Before anyone ever stepped into that water, they realized one thing, that they needed to do that act in the first place.
I have seen the baptism of Infants, it IS A BEAUTIFUL statement by the parents dedicating their Child to God, but the very reason why water is used is because it was first started by John, and it was repentance of previous sins, which an innocent child does not yet have, Thats why those were being baptized originally in the first place.

 

[dcontroversal]

DC please go back and read what it was addressing. I asked if John the Baptist was BORN AGAIN before being born.

Sarah I did read it and is not your question ultimately designed to prove that it is ok to (baptize) an infant because they (supposedly) can believe as an infant? John is a special case and the only thing it states is that John had the spirit from his mothers womb. This in no way, shape or form indicates or lends to infant (sprinkling) as John as an adult sought IMMERSION by Jesus.

 

[sltaylor]

DC please go back and read what it was addressing. I asked if John the Baptist was BORN AGAIN before being born.

Let me get this one DC...
#1- John asked to be baptized by Christ....
#2- Jesus talked about John and his righteousness but also said this about John...*"I tell you,*among those born*of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

John knew he needed to be baptized by Christ and the holy spirit, which puts one into the kingdom in the first place.

 

[Willie-T]

Sarah seems to be equating the influence of the Holy Spirit in someone's life (JTB?) as being "born in the Spirit." Even sinners, today, are drawn by the Spirit, but they are not yet "born of the Spirit."

 

[mwc68]

although we do baptize babies at the church we attend.

it's always moving, and very meaningful. ♥

And why were those people walking into the water in the first place? Did they realize they were wrong and we're pledging a good concious before God? Yes Before anyone ever stepped into that water, they realized one thing, that they needed to do that act in the first place.
I have seen the baptism of Infants, it IS A BEAUTIFUL statement by the parents dedicating their Child to God, but the very reason why water is used is because it was first started by John, and it was repentance of previous sins, which an innocent child does not yet have, Thats why those were being baptized originally in the first place.[/QUOTEzekiel 36:25-27 is fulfilled in Acts 2:38. None of thesr mention a prerequisite of faith

 

[SarahM777]

Sarah I did read it and is not your question ultimately designed to prove that it is ok to (baptize) an infant because they (supposedly) can believe as an infant? John is a special case and the only thing it states is that John had the spirit from his mothers womb. This in no way, shape or form indicates or lends to infant (sprinkling) as John as an adult sought IMMERSION by Jesus.

I know you would agree that Jesus said this

John 3

Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. [SUP]2 [/SUP]He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.” [SUP]3 [/SUP]Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[SUP][a][/SUP]”
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[SUP][b][/SUP] gives birth to spirit. [SUP]7 [/SUP]You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[SUP][c][/SUP] must be born again.’ [SUP]8 [/SUP]The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[SUP][d][/SUP]
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? [SUP]11 [/SUP]Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? [SUP]13 [/SUP]No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[SUP][e][/SUP] [SUP]14 [/SUP]Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[SUP][f][/SUP] [SUP]15[/SUP]that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[SUP][g][/SUP]
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. [SUP]18[/SUP]Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. [SUP]19 [/SUP]This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. [SUP]21 [/SUP]But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

Does Jesus exclude ANYONE in the everyone or whoever believes in Him?

And didn't Jesus also say this

Mark 9

[SUP]42 [/SUP]“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea.

Jesus very clearly says little ones can believe in Him. So are those little ones part of the WHOSOEVER believes in Him? And where is the cut off line for one these little ones? Does Jesus define how young they are when they believe?

 

[sltaylor]

And why were those people walking into the water in the first place? Did they realize they were wrong and we're pledging a good concious before God? Yes Before anyone ever stepped into that water, they realized one thing, that they needed to do that act in the first place.
I have seen the baptism of Infants, it IS A BEAUTIFUL statement by the parents dedicating their Child to God, but the very reason why water is used is because it was first started by John, and it was repentance of previous sins, which an innocent child does not yet have, Thats why those were being baptized originally in the first place.[/QUOTEzekiel 36:25-27 is fulfilled in Acts 2:38. None of thesr mention a prerequisite of faith

Many do not have a prerequisite of faith before repenting....the very reason of their lack of faith is probably the reason they had to repent in the first place...it's not about having a prerequisite of faith....Biblically Johns baptism was a baptism of repentance, four places it says that....what child's sins are the parents repenting of that innocent child for?

 

[dcontroversal]

I know you would agree that Jesus said this

John 3

Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. [SUP]2 [/SUP]He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.” [SUP]3 [/SUP]Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[SUP][a][/SUP]”
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[SUP][b][/SUP] gives birth to spirit. [SUP]7 [/SUP]You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[SUP][c][/SUP] must be born again.’ [SUP]8 [/SUP]The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[SUP][d][/SUP]
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? [SUP]11 [/SUP]Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? [SUP]13 [/SUP]No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[SUP][e][/SUP] [SUP]14 [/SUP]Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[SUP][f][/SUP] [SUP]15[/SUP]that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[SUP][g][/SUP]
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. [SUP]18[/SUP]Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. [SUP]19 [/SUP]This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. [SUP]21 [/SUP]But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

Does Jesus exclude ANYONE in the everyone or whoever believes in Him?

And didn't Jesus also say this

Mark 9

[SUP]42 [/SUP]“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea.

Jesus very clearly says little ones can believe in Him. So are those little ones part of the WHOSOEVER believes in Him? And where is the cut off line for one these little ones? Does Jesus define how young they are when they believe?

Little ones and children are not infants and this still does not prove that infants are to be baptized which is immersion!

 

[Stephen63]

I'm wondering if John the Bapt. was saved under the New Covenant in the first place, considering he died before Jesus' finished work on the cross:

Matthew 11:11 (KJV) Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

 

[sltaylor]

I know you would agree that Jesus said this

John 3

Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. [SUP]2 [/SUP]He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.” [SUP]3 [/SUP]Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[SUP][a][/SUP]”
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[SUP][b][/SUP] gives birth to spirit. [SUP]7 [/SUP]You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[SUP][c][/SUP] must be born again.’ [SUP]8 [/SUP]The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[SUP][d][/SUP]
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? [SUP]11 [/SUP]Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? [SUP]13 [/SUP]No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[SUP][e][/SUP] [SUP]14 [/SUP]Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[SUP][f][/SUP] [SUP]15[/SUP]that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[SUP][g][/SUP]
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. [SUP]18[/SUP]Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. [SUP]19 [/SUP]This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. [SUP]21 [/SUP]But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

Does Jesus exclude ANYONE in the everyone or whoever believes in Him?

And didn't Jesus also say this

Mark 9

[SUP]42 [/SUP]“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea.

Jesus very clearly says little ones can believe in Him. So are those little ones part of the WHOSOEVER believes in Him? And where is the cut off line for one these little ones? Does Jesus define how young they are when they believe?

The little children were coming to him on their own in the first place, not being brought.