Being born of water and Spirit

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Runningman

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Mar 4, 2020
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here is what born of water and spirit means, Jesus says this is something Nicodemus should have known as a teacher of the law. so this is something found in the OT. here it is

Ezekiel 36:25-27
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
Great so being born of water is absolutely not live birth. You, the word of God, and myself are in total agreement on that point. Thanks for sharing that passage.
 

Runningman

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@Runningman

I have noticed over the past several months that you have been falling into more-and-more error with regard to the interpretation of scripture.

Also, you seem to have been getting more-and-more "headstrong" concerning you (the new Christian) being right in your interpretation of scripture while others (Christians who have studied the scriptures for decades) cannot possibly be right.

I don't know who/what you are listening to or reading, but you need to get away from them/it.

It/They are causing you to go the wrong way.

I will pray for you, that you may get away from this bad influence.
I don't listen to any preachers, televangelists, or read any other books outside the Bible. I study the Bible at least a little bit every day and I'll continue finding ways to harmonize the scriptures through what I believe is guidance by God Himself.
 

randyk

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Jan 14, 2021
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Natural birth is the first birth and it isn't how to be "born again" which would require literally going back into your mother's womb and being born a second time. This is what Nicodemus thought and it's wrong. Born again of "water and Spirit" are water baptism and Spiritual rebirth and it means to be "born from above."
Well, I do agree that Natural Birth is not "how to be born again." But it isn't just because rebirth avoids going through the birth canal a 2nd time! It's also because rebirth avoids the need for water altogether, whether Natural Birth (amniotic fluid) or Water Baptism!

The amniotic fluid in Natural Birth serves to show the necessity of a spiritual agency in order to receive spiritual rebirth. It is a comparison. Just as becoming a human requires birth through physical water, ie the amniotic fluid, so spiritual rebirth requires a spiritual agency in order to effect that result.

And what is that "spiritual agency?" It is faith in the heavenly Christ. We do that by spiritual discernment, responding to a spiritual revelation in order to receive spiritual benefits. Jesus was arguing that just as natural birth requires water so spiritual rebirth requires spirituality. We are responding to a divine revelation through the Holy Spirit.

But turning back to the material substance of water in either Natural Birth or Water Baptism turns the idea on its head. Instead of looking to the Spirit we then look to earthly substances, like physical birth and water baptism. That isn't, I believe, what Jesus intended to convey. I don't think he was referring to Natural Birth nor to Water Baptism in order to effect spiritual rebirth.

Rather, he was, I think, referring Nicodemus to spiritual things. He was using his spiritual word to convey spiritual revelation to Nicodemus in order to get him to think outside of the box of "earthly elements" like water completely.
 
Apr 21, 2021
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Matthew 3:14,15 has nothing whatsoever to do with Christians being water baptized. It is about Jesus fulfilling the will of the Father.
Do you believe Jesus' baptism was an example for us to follow, or was it something entirely different from the believer's baptism?
 
Jul 3, 2015
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people who level false accusations against me such as ... putting words in Jesus' mouth
How odd you think this some kind of false accusation.

It's exactly what you are doing :oops::rolleyes:

While saying 99% of people would disagree with me for saying so when I posted
the actual words of Jesus as recorded, which were not what you claim He said.
 

GaryA

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Sure thing Gary. I respect your opinion since you're always polite to me.

However, you'll find that people who level false accusations against me such as being a troll, intentionally putting words in Jesus' mouth, saying I am possessed by an unclean spirit, saying I am an unbeliever, calling me a liar, talking about my race and ethnicity, etc will be opposed at every level by me. Within the past couple weeks those are the kind of things people have said.

What you may have witnessed are people who have hostility toward me and are therefore no longer afforded the courtesy and dignity they are attempting to strip me of. I wish you would go back and read all of my comments and see that I simply state what the Bible says and it attracts unprovoked hostility.
Many of these things you speak of are certainly unnecessary. However, some of it is at least partially due to your misunderstanding of something someone said.

That race and ethnicity thing was not anything like what you thought.

While telling others not to judge you - be careful to consider what they have said before you judge the intent of what they said. Yes, I agree that some things probably just shouldn't be said. But, I am referring to the rest...
 

Runningman

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Mar 4, 2020
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How odd you think this some kind of false accusation.

It's exactly what you are doing :oops::rolleyes:

While saying 99% of people would disagree with me for saying so when I posted
the actual words of Jesus as recorded, which were not what you claim He said.
Your problem is that you accused me of doing something I certainly didn't do nor intend to do and you do not give me the same amount of grace you seem to lavish upon yourself. We are all just here trying to learn and interpret the Bible, but you took this to a whole 'nother level and have basically said I am bearing false witness of God. However, when you interpret the Bible you seem to not accept you can be wrong.

Do you really think that's what I am doing? That's absurd. Of course you will get nothing but staunch resistance from me over that. smh.
 
Mar 17, 2022
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Christ said water baptism is righteous,
What you said is a lie.
Christ never said that "water baptism is righteous".

What Jesus said is that HIS Water Baptism "fulfilled all righteousness".
And that is not water being "righteous".
That is Jesus, explaining to John the Baptist, who is wondering why He is baptising the SINLESS SON OF GOD, ......
He does not understand this....
So, Jesus is explaining...that he must complete all the righteousness of a human being, so that he can lay down this LIFE that has completed it, for the sin of the world.
 
Jul 3, 2015
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Do you really think that's what I am doing? That's absurd
Of course I do, because you have claimed Jesus said something
He did not, and what's worse, you repeatedly refuse to admit it.


Christ said water baptism is righteous
It is hardly absurd when the proof is right under your nose despite your denials.

syh all you want. You should return to accepting what the
Bible plainly states instead of substituting your own words.
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
4,763
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Well, I do agree that Natural Birth is not "how to be born again." But it isn't just because rebirth avoids going through the birth canal a 2nd time! It's also because rebirth avoids the need for water altogether, whether Natural Birth (amniotic fluid) or Water Baptism!

The amniotic fluid in Natural Birth serves to show the necessity of a spiritual agency in order to receive spiritual rebirth. It is a comparison. Just as becoming a human requires birth through physical water, ie the amniotic fluid, so spiritual rebirth requires a spiritual agency in order to effect that result.

And what is that "spiritual agency?" It is faith in the heavenly Christ. We do that by spiritual discernment, responding to a spiritual revelation in order to receive spiritual benefits. Jesus was arguing that just as natural birth requires water so spiritual rebirth requires spirituality. We are responding to a divine revelation through the Holy Spirit.

But turning back to the material substance of water in either Natural Birth or Water Baptism turns the idea on its head. Instead of looking to the Spirit we then look to earthly substances, like physical birth and water baptism. That isn't, I believe, what Jesus intended to convey. I don't think he was referring to Natural Birth nor to Water Baptism in order to effect spiritual rebirth.

Rather, he was, I think, referring Nicodemus to spiritual things. He was using his spiritual word to convey spiritual revelation to Nicodemus in order to get him to think outside of the box of "earthly elements" like water completely.
I agree with the idea that Jesus is certainly trying to explain heavenly things to Nicodemus and He employs the use of comparisons in order to illustrate what He's trying to say.

Consider that Jesus said "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." meaning that if the water component in "water and spirit" is the amniotic fluid of live birth then that would just be a reference to being born of flesh and not being born of Spirit.

Remember, John 1 says that being born of flesh has no bearing on being born again. Just the whole live birth angle with being born of "water and Spirit" makes no sense to me for so many reasons.

John 1:12,13
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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I don't listen to any preachers, televangelists, or read any other books outside the Bible. I study the Bible at least a little bit every day and I'll continue finding ways to harmonize the scriptures through what I believe is guidance by God Himself.
Good!

Nonetheless, I believe something has been steering you into a danger zone.

I could be wrong.

I will pray for you.
 

Runningman

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Mar 4, 2020
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Of course I do, because you have claimed Jesus said something He did not, and repeatedly refuse to admit it.



It is hardly absurd when the proof is right under your nose despite your denials.
No you're wrong and I already proved that twice in this thread. The thing that was righteous is the water baptism and getting the water baptism is fulfilling all righteousness which is what Jesus said. If you say Jesus didn't say that then you're a liar and bearing false witness of God at this point, both which are sins.
 

Runningman

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Mar 4, 2020
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What you said is a lie.
Christ never said that "water baptism is righteous".

What Jesus said is that HIS Water Baptism "fulfilled all righteousness".
And that is not water being "righteous".
That is Jesus, explaining to John the Baptist, who is wondering why He is baptising the SINLESS SON OF GOD, ......
He does not understand this....
So, Jesus is explaining...that he must complete all the righteousness of a human being, so that he can lay down this LIFE that has completed it, for the sin of the world.
I assure you, the Bible is not lying. Jesus said getting water baptized is fulfilling all righteousness. The only way that even makes sense is if water baptism is a righteous act.
 
Jul 3, 2015
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No you're wrong and I already proved that twice in this thread. The thing that was righteous is the water baptism and getting the water baptism is fulfilling all righteousness which is what Jesus said. If you say Jesus didn't say that then you're a liar and bearing false witness of God at this point, both which are sins.
"Outward sign of an inner grace" isn't really scripture though and I am kind of a stickler about that. Actually none of what you said seems to be scripture, but rather your own commentary.
I am simply holding you to your own standard. Sorry you don't like it.

No matter how many times you falsely accuse me and say all manner of slanderous things, what you have claimed Jesus said is not recorded in Scripture, so your pretense of having proven me wrong is just that: a pretense.
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
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I am simply holding you to your own standard. Sorry you don't like it.

No matter how many times you falsely accuse me and say all manner of slanderous things, what you have claimed Jesus said is not recorded in Scripture, so your pretense of having proven me wrong is just that: a pretense.
Getting water baptized to fulfill all righteousness only makes sense if water baptism is righteous otherwise it would be a dead work. Therefore Jesus said water baptism is righteous. Fact.

I really don't care what you say about me. I am in the right and feel peace about it and will continue to preach that water baptism is righteous. I am so sorry you don't like that but you'll get over it eventually.
 

GaryA

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Aug 10, 2019
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Do you believe Jesus' baptism was an example for us to follow, or was it something entirely different from the believer's baptism?
Of course it is an example for us to follow; however, the issue in those two verses was/is not about 'Christian baptism'. And, there was/is a 'unique' aspect of the baptism of Jesus that does not apply to us - because, it is about the fulfillment of His ministry.
 
Apr 21, 2021
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Of course it is an example for us to follow; however, the issue in those two verses was/is not about 'Christian baptism'. And, there was/is a 'unique' aspect of the baptism of Jesus that does not apply to us - because, it is about the fulfillment of His ministry.
I see your point, I guess I just see it a little differently. Matthew 3:15 my refer only to the Lord in its context; but I do believe it demonstrates the importance of baptism as an act of obedience for the believer. And I do believe baptism is necessary for a believer to "fulfill all righteousness."
 

DavidTree

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Aug 2, 2021
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You seem to have an all or nothing mindset; that's a very simplistic way to look at things.

You say religion "always" seeks to replace faith with works. You have no possible way to know that. Have you done a survey? Have conducted a formal study? No, you haven't. You use the "religion always bad" excuse to smear those you don't like or who disagree with you.
i am PURELY speaking of to that which SAVES us = HIS BLOOD versus works/religion based false salvation

PURELY comparing ALL religion to SALVATION from God's Perspective = Scripture

No condemnation to religious works that glorify the LORD done from heart of faith = NOT for Salvation buy to show love, mercy and compassion to others in need.