Being born of water and Spirit

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Nov 26, 2021
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#82
Some have either never read the Bible fully, or still fail to understand it well. Attacking Religion is an Atheistic and Agnostic Practice.

"James 1:27 "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."
 

DavidTree

Well-known member
Aug 2, 2021
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#83
Some have either never read the Bible fully, or still fail to understand it well. Attacking Religion is an Atheistic and Agnostic Practice.

"James 1:27 "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."
Notice how the Scripture never includes religion to Salvation in James 1:27
 
Nov 26, 2021
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#84
Notice how the Scripture never includes religion to Salvation in James 1:27
St. James speaks of Religion as Good, to show Love and Compassion to Orphans and Widows, and keep oneself unspotted from the world, i.e. striving to avoid sin by God's Grace.

You spoke of Religion as Bad. So in that matter, David, you are disagreeing with the Word of God, and agreeing with Atheists and Agnostics. They agree Religion is bad. They are wrong.

Religion is Good, because Religion means Love for God, Devotion to Him, offering sacrifices, showing love to our neighbors for Christ's sake, and striving to grow in holiness by God's Grace.
 

DavidTree

Well-known member
Aug 2, 2021
6,121
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#85
St. James speaks of Religion as Good, to show Love and Compassion to Orphans and Widows, and keep oneself unspotted from the world, i.e. striving to avoid sin by God's Grace.

You spoke of Religion as Bad. So in that matter, David, you are disagreeing with the Word of God, and agreeing with Atheists and Agnostics. They agree Religion is bad. They are wrong.

Religion is Good, because Religion means Love for God, Devotion to Him, offering sacrifices, showing love to our neighbors for Christ's sake, and striving to grow in holiness by God's Grace.
Nothing wrong with 'Good religion' but it can NEVER bring Salvation.

ONLY Faith in the FINISHED Work of Christ who shed His Blood for remission of sins.

Religion always seeks to replace faith with outward works.

The Apostle Paul, Apostle Peter and James say that true Faith comes first and true 'good works' will follow that Faith.

'Good religion' will always tell you it cannot save you.

BAD religion always tells you it can save you.

Choose the RIGHT HAND of GOD.
 
Apr 21, 2021
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#86
Religion always seeks to replace faith with outward works.
You seem to have an all or nothing mindset; that's a very simplistic way to look at things.

You say religion "always" seeks to replace faith with works. You have no possible way to know that. Have you done a survey? Have conducted a formal study? No, you haven't. You use the "religion always bad" excuse to smear those you don't like or who disagree with you.
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
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#87
I have gathered a sampling of a few of your posts to show you are veering off your stated course
of accepting what Scripture clearly says without putting a spin on it such as you are doing now.












It matters not that these posts may concern some other topic or doctrine in Scripture.

You have changed the words of Jesus.
Okay let me break this down then since you seem so committed to saying I am putting words in the mouth of Jesus. Now everyone can read the scripture and see for themselves.

The context is water baptism and the thing that is fulfilling righteousness is water baptism. That's what Jesus said. You have a problem with God's word take it up with Him, I'm just a messenger.

Matthew 3:14,15 KJV
14But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

That's perfectly clear to me. Here's how the NLT words it if you prefer:

Matthew 3:14,15 NLT
14But John tried to talk him out of it. “I am the one who needs to be baptized by you,” he said, “so why are you coming to me?”
15But Jesus said, “It should be done, for we must carry out all that God requires.” So John agreed to baptize him.
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
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#88
There are indeed two ways to look at "water birth," natural birth or baptismal birth. The reason I choose to accept natural birth is because Jesus is contrasting water birth with spiritual birth. If water birth is spiritual birth, then it cannot be contrasted with spiritual birth.

In other words, If water birth is in reality "spiritual birth," then Jesus was just comparing a way of describing "spiritual birth" with "spiritual birth," which is nonsense. But he was rather comparing natural birth with spiritual birth to explain, by natural means, things that must be spiritually discerned.
Natural birth is the first birth and it isn't how to be "born again" which would require literally going back into your mother's womb and being born a second time. This is what Nicodemus thought and it's wrong. Born again of "water and Spirit" are water baptism and Spiritual rebirth and it means to be "born from above."
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
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#89
In John 3:1-21 the LORD permanently and forever separates natural water from the Spirit so that it is CLEAR = only by the SPIRIT can one be Born Again

Listen to your Brethen that love you and are speaking the TRUTH.

Religion always divides for it adds to the FINISHED Work of CHRIST on the Cross.
Thanks David, but I hope you listen to me too. Rather, don't listen to me, but listen to the scripture I've quoted.
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
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#90
Jesus did not say what you have claimed. I do not know why you pretend otherwise
aside from a desire to bolster your argument which you believe to be unique.



Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.”

*****************************

Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

New Living Translation
But Jesus said, “It should be done, for we must carry out all that God requires.” So John agreed to baptize him.


English Standard Version
But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he consented.


Berean Study Bible
“Let it be so now,” Jesus replied. “It is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness in this way.” Then John permitted Him.


Berean Literal Bible
But Jesus answering, said unto him, "Permit it presently; for thus it is fitting to us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he permits Him.


King James Bible
And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.


New King James Version
But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him.


New American Standard Bible
But Jesus, answering, said to him, “Allow it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him.


NASB 1995
But Jesus answering said to him, “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he permitted Him.


NASB 1977
But Jesus answering said to him, “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he permitted Him.


Amplified Bible
But Jesus replied to him, “Permit it just now; for this is the fitting way for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John permitted [it and baptized] Him.


Christian Standard Bible
Jesus answered him, “Allow it for now, because this is the way for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John allowed him to be baptized.


Holman Christian Standard Bible
Jesus answered him, “Allow it for now, because this is the way for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him to be baptized.


American Standard Version
But Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffereth him.


Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But Yeshua answered and said to him, “Allow this now, for it is proper for us to fulfill all justice”, and then he allowed him.


Contemporary English Version
Jesus answered, "For now this is how it should be, because we must do all God wants us to do." Then John agreed.


Douay-Rheims Bible
And Jesus answering, said to him: Suffer it to be so now. For so it becometh us to fulfill all justice. Then he suffered him.


Good News Translation
But Jesus answered him, "Let it be so for now. For in this way we shall do all that God requires." So John agreed.


International Standard Version
But Jesus answered him, "Let it be this way for now, because this is the proper way for us to fulfill all righteousness." At this, he permitted him to be baptized.


Literal Standard Version
But Jesus answering said to him, “Permit [it] now, for thus it is fitting to us to fulfill all righteousness,” then he permits Him.


New American Bible
Jesus said to him in reply, “Allow it now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed him.


NET Bible
So Jesus replied to him, "Let it happen now, for it is right for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then John yielded to him.


New Revised Standard Version
But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now; for it is proper for us in this way to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he consented.


New Heart English Bible
But Jesus, answering, said to him, "Allow it to happen now, for this is the proper way for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed him.


Weymouth New Testament
"Let it be so on this occasion," Jesus replied; "for so we ought to fulfil every religious duty." Then he consented;


World English Bible
But Jesus, answering, said to him, "Allow it now, for this is the fitting way for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed him.


Young's Literal Translation
But Jesus answering said to him, 'Suffer now, for thus it is becoming to us to fulfil all righteousness,' then he doth suffer him.
You seem to think you're the authority on what Jesus said or inferred and that when other's don't see it your way they are in error. What I see here is that He said that water baptism is righteous. You don't see that which is unfortunate. I'm pretty sure 99% of people would just have to disagree with you on that.
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
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#91
Ok...let's start here...in John's gospel, the very first chapter in verse 12 John relates that ANYONE who receives Jesus and believes in His name is indeed "Born From Above" as a child of God's.

Nicodemus starts his meeting with Jesus proclaiming these very things. Jesus doesn't say "You need to become Born From Above" or Again...Jesus is relating the truth of the situation...that Nicodemus is in fact was "Born From Above" which had significance in Jewish society of a recognized status.

That Nicodemus's existence had already been foretold in Old Testament prophecy some 6-800 years before. Which Nicodemus knows very well but doesn't believe talks about him....of course the focus of the passage is the Messiah...not the Messiah's believers....but Nicodemus is having issues keeping up or believing God knows him personally.

Only in today's westernized, self-important civilization do we have the hutzpah to take such a notion for granted while dismissing Jesus's omniscience.

Nicodemus went to Jesus to let him know that he, as a member of the Sanhedrin, was a supporter of Jesus's ministry and was going to endorse his ministry. To give it weight and credence...

It never dawned on his wildest imagination that Jesus was indeed the Messiah, the Very Son of God...and that the reverse of endorsements was needed...which Jesus did give.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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#92
The context is water baptism and the thing that is fulfilling righteousness is water baptism. That's what Jesus said. You have a problem with God's word take it up with Him, I'm just a messenger.

Matthew 3:14,15 KJV
14But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
You have "totally missed it" with regard to the 'grammar of the language'. (Which is even more interesting considering the particular parts of the above verses you have bolded.)

The focus of these verses is not water baptism.

It is about Jesus being baptized by John.

This is what is being said to be "needed"/"required" to 'fulfil all righteousness'.

It is not about water baptism in the slightest.

~

You are not 'listening' to the Word - so that it may show you what it really actually and plainly says. Instead, you are superimposing onto it what you want it to say. (It may be subconscious - without you realizing it.)
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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#93
@Runningman

I have noticed over the past several months that you have been falling into more-and-more error with regard to the interpretation of scripture.

Also, you seem to have been getting more-and-more "headstrong" concerning you (the new Christian) being right in your interpretation of scripture while others (Christians who have studied the scriptures for decades) cannot possibly be right.

I don't know who/what you are listening to or reading, but you need to get away from them/it.

It/They are causing you to go the wrong way.

I will pray for you, that you may get away from this bad influence.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
1,887
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#94
here is what born of water and spirit means, Jesus says this is something Nicodemus should have known as a teacher of the law. so this is something found in the OT. here it is

Ezekiel 36:25-27
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
 
Jul 3, 2015
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#95
You seem to think you're the authority on what Jesus said or inferred
and that when other's don't see it your way they are in error. What I
see here is that He said that water baptism is righteous. You don't
see that which is unfortunate. I'm pretty sure 99% of people would
just have to disagree with you on that.
I am pretty sure any Bible believing person would accept what
the Bible says Jesus said over the words you put in Jesus' mouth.


Jesus is nowhere recorded saying the words you claim He did.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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#96
@Runningman

Also, you seem to have been getting more-and-more "headstrong" concerning you (the new Christian) being right in your interpretation of scripture while others (Christians who have studied the scriptures for decades) cannot possibly be right.
Admittedly, the length of time spent studying the scriptures is not an accurate measure of having the proper understanding of the scriptures - 'more time' does not automatically mean 'more understanding'.

I said this (above, quoted) to illustrate that you seem to have an increasing pride-based "I am right and that is all there is to it!" attitude with regard to your interpretation of scripture - to the point of completely ignoring the admonishments of others.

Please consider taking a step back to reconsider the situation.

I am not against you.

I think it is wonderful that you want to understand the scriptures better.

But, it can (and usually does) require a bit of a slow-and-steady approach - being too "gung ho" about it can lead to much error.
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
4,763
2,591
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#97
You have "totally missed it" with regard to the 'grammar of the language'. (Which is even more interesting considering the particular parts of the above verses you have bolded.)

The focus of these verses is not water baptism.

It is about Jesus being baptized by John.

This is what is being said to be "needed"/"required" to 'fulfil all righteousness'.

It is not about water baptism in the slightest.

~

You are not 'listening' to the Word - so that it may show you what it really actually and plainly says. Instead, you are superimposing onto it what you want it to say. (It may be subconscious - without you realizing it.)
No that's false. Let me break that down for you and let's look at some different versions/translation and see if that makes it more simpler to understand.

Action: be water baptized
Action: Let it (water baptism) be so
Action: fulfill all righteousness
Action: Then he consented [to water baptize Jesus]

Matthew 3:14,15 NIV
14But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”
15Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

Action: be water baptized
Action: Let it (water baptism) be so
Action: fulfill all righteousness
Action: Then he consented [to water baptize Jesus]

Matthew 3:14,15 ESV
14John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” 15But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he consented.

Action: Needs to be water baptized
Action: It (water baptism) should be done
Action: carry out all God requires
Action: John agreed to water baptize Jesus

Matthew 3:14,15 NLT
14But John tried to talk him out of it. “I am the one who needs to be baptized by you,” he said, “so why are you coming to me?”
15But Jesus said, “It should be done, for we must carry out all that God requires." So John agreed to baptize him.
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
873
258
63
Pacific NW USA
#98
Nicodemus was referring to the title of "Born From Above". It was a designation of a group of individuals from Israel's history. Nicodemus did not know that he specifically was mentioned in a prophecy before he was born. (A specific requirement of Born From Above)

That's where the confusion comes into play...
When the first English lessons and translations into English were made...the ancient Anthropology was unknown at the time. So a mistranslation happened.

And perpetuated by well meaning people.
Never heard of that. Any links to this idea?
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
4,763
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#99
@Runningman


Admittedly, the length of time spent studying the scriptures is not an accurate measure of having the proper understanding of the scriptures - 'more time' does not automatically mean 'more understanding'.

I said this (above, quoted) to illustrate that you seem to have an increasing pride-based "I am right and that is all there is to it!" attitude with regard to your interpretation of scripture - to the point of completely ignoring the admonishments of others.

Please consider taking a step back to reconsider the situation.

I am not against you.

I think it is wonderful that you want to understand the scriptures better.

But, it can (and usually does) require a bit of a slow-and-steady approach - being too "gung ho" about it can lead to much error.
Sure thing Gary. I respect your opinion since you're always polite to me.

However, you'll find that people who level false accusations against me such as being a troll, intentionally putting words in Jesus' mouth, saying I am possessed by an unclean spirit, saying I am an unbeliever, calling me a liar, talking about my race and ethnicity, etc will be opposed at every level by me. Within the past couple weeks those are the kind of things people have said.

What you may have witnessed are people who have hostility toward me and are therefore no longer afforded the courtesy and dignity they are attempting to strip me of. I wish you would go back and read all of my comments and see that I simply state what the Bible says and it attracts unprovoked hostility.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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It is about Jesus being baptized by John.

This is what is being said to be "needed"/"required" to 'fulfil all righteousness'.

It is not about water baptism in the slightest.
Matthew 3:14,15 has nothing whatsoever to do with Christians being water baptized. It is about Jesus fulfilling the will of the Father.

Everything about the baptism of Jesus was to 'fulfil all righteousness'.

Everything Jesus did during His ministry was to 'fulfil all righteousness'.

This, in its broader scope, is what these two verses are concerned with.