Belief in God: Is it logical?

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K

Kerry

Guest
Just commenting on this thread. Not trying to come off as sounding hateful. Just inputting a comment.

I find it odd that most atheist always say the have no belief, yet most "believe" in evolution. Whether its logical or not, and is not proven, only theoretical. Here is another atheist "belief", that when a person dies the body decays and there is nothing else. whether it is logical or not. Most even have "faith" in science even though science is fallible and has failed many,many times.

But when, we say we believe or have faith in God, we are labeled a nut case.

My two cents.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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You really ought to look these things up before quoting them as fact. Citations would be even better.

The prefix "a-" in this instance means "not" or "without" (see definition #6). "Anti-" means against, not "a-".
Theism is not "the study of God" (that's theology) but rather "belief in God".
Atheism, whether or not the parts of the word make up the whole, is already defined. Why are you trying to convince an atheist that you know what it means better than atheists do?

It's also useful to note that atheism is not a religion, as religion is "a set of beliefs" and atheism is a lack of belief. While it's true that a person who believes that no god exists would also be defined as an atheist, that still wouldn't constitute a "set" of beliefs... believing that waffles taste good, for example, would not mean that you have a religion based on such a belief. But even if we granted that atheism was a religion, then why would you argue against someone proselytizing such a belief system? Do you hold a double-standard in which it is acceptable to publicly promote Christianity but not atheism? Do you feel that your right to free speech (or freedom of religion) ought to be upheld but an atheist's right to free speech (or freedom of religion) ought to be withheld?
Oh, I used my Greek books, rather than the Internet. But I am very sick, and confess that I think you are right - I haven't been on-line for a few days, and my fever is still high, so yes, I was wrong.

As far as free speech, I am not American. We have much more restrictive speech laws in Canada. My thought is to wonder why an atheist would even want to come into a Christian forum and discuss these matters? That was the thrust of my post. I prefer to discuss the Bible in a Bible Discussion forum, not logic or secular philosophy. But maybe that is just me.

As for the freedom of religion, I confess I am much more concerned about the lack of freedom in places like Egypt and Uzbekistan than whether an atheist has the "freedom" to come into a Bible forum and discuss things that have nothing to do with the Bible. Really, in the long run, it means nothing compared to people losing their lives for their faith.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
My thought is to wonder why an atheist would even want to come into a Christian forum and discuss these matters? That was the thrust of my post. I prefer to discuss the Bible in a Bible Discussion forum, not logic or secular philosophy. But maybe that is just me.

Searching, they know down deep something is missing and love is the most difficult thing for science to understand.
 
V

VanIsland

Guest
@Angela53510


"As for VanIsland, I urge you to stop trying to proselytize your religion here” --> I have done no such thing. I have simply proposed a framework of logic and asked christians if they A) think it is compatible with their belief B) Do not think it is compatible with their beliefs or C) Think it is irrelevant (and if so why). Asking questions and looking for answers is not a form of proselytizing a religion

"NOT believing in God is as much a religion as believing in God.” --> A religion is an organized set of beliefs, cultural systems, world views and doctrines that relate to the supernatural and spirituality. Simply believing that a god exists (theist) or that a god does not exist (atheist) does not qualify as a religion. They are compatible with some religions, but are not religions in of themselves.

"the debate about logic and proofs in the world, will not sway a single person here.” --> I am not attempting to sway you.

"So are you doing this on a dare? Summer boredom? “ --> if you had read all my posts you’d have seen that I’ve addressed this. This is both a matter of curiosity and practise. My family is very religious and does not realize that I do not share their beliefs. I’d rather make a mistake practising online with some level of anonymity rather and accidentally angering a family member and burning that bridge.

"since it seems like most people do not have the philosophical background to debate logic as you are attempting to do here.” --> so you know, I have not taken any formal classes in philosophy. While I do have a post-secondary degree, it is in Geography and Environmental Studies. I did however, recently read Richard Bach’s Jonathan Livingson Seagull. Does that count?

"What are you going to do with your sin on Judgement Day?” --> I don’t think there will be a judgement day so this question is irrelevant. I also probably have a slightly different moral standard than you do (although I am sure that we share come common themes).

Now, as for how I deal with any mistakes I make, If I had to break my approach to life into five key points they would be as follows:

1) Self-Growth: I continually try to better myself, even if my quest goes against the status quo or the established hierarchy.

2) No Limitations: Most of the limitations we have are self-imposed. Through the process of self-reflection, I can identify my own purpose and meaning and cast of these imposed limitations.

3) Creative Destruction: I don’t fear failure. I embrace failure as a learning opportunity. The problem arrises when you cannot deal with failure.

4) Reluctant Leadership: I have a responciblity to set an example through demonstration. If I see a need in my community & posess the talent and will to address it, it becomes a duty (in other words, don’t take positions for egocentric reasons)

5) Passing the Torch: I have to know when it is time to step aside so future generations can progress. Holding a position of authority for to long can lead to complacency in both the leaders and the followers.

“Dealing with my sins” falls under the category of creative destruction. I admit that I’m going to make mistakes. I don’t define myself by these mistakes, but rather how I respond to them (ie. do I reflect, learn, grow and make amends?).
 
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Ariel82

Guest
"It would only be illogical if someone demonstrated that god was real to me."

just finished reading the whole thread.

We will pray that God work in your life to reveal His reality to you.
@Ariel82



lol nope, simple spelling mistake :p hence my attempt to clarify and avoid potential confusion.

"We will pray that God work in your life to reveal His reality to you.” --> While I don’t really believe in the power in prayer, I recognize that this is genuine and done with good intentions I thank you for it.
If an unmovable object ceases to be an object, could you consider that object having been moved?

I believe there is a way that you can answer yes to that question but only if you define unmovable and moved describing separate events.

For example: the object is unmovable if it is unable to be physically moved from one place to another (purely hypothetical but because there isn't an object that is truly unmovable or even unmoving).

However you can describe it as being moved from one state of existence to another. Or you could define the object as moving in the context of aging through time and not remaining static.

Therefore if you consider the different dimension one could base your observation upon that object, you can logically conclude things that may seem illogical if not clearly defined and outlined.

In the same manner God may appear illogical to those who do not have spiritual eyes to see into His realm.

Elisha's servant was afraid because he was not able to see into the spiritual realm until Elisha prayed for him to see the angels encamped around them. After having seen the angels it became illogical for him to continue to be afraid.

2 Kings 6:14-17


New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Therefore he sent horses and chariots and a great army there, and they came by night and surrounded the city. [SUP]15 [/SUP]And when the servant of the man of God arose early and went out, there was an army, surrounding the city with horses and chariots. And his servant said to him, “Alas, my master! What shall we do?”

[SUP]16 [/SUP]So he answered, “Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them.” [SUP]17 [/SUP]And Elisha prayed, and said, “Lord, I pray, open his eyes that he may see.” Then the Lord opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.
Ok back to talking to the OP.... VanIsland, in the midst of the distraction you didn't comment on my post.

What are your thoughts?

Do see the point of how premises, perceptions of reality and definitions of words can influence the validity of a statement or its falsehood?
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
"

1) Self-Growth: I continually try to better myself, even if my quest goes against the status quo or the established hierarchy.

2) No Limitations: Most of the limitations we have are self-imposed. Through the process of self-reflection, I can identify my own purpose and meaning and cast of these imposed limitations.

3) Creative Destruction: I don’t fear failure. I embrace failure as a learning opportunity. The problem arrises when you cannot deal with failure.

4) Reluctant Leadership: I have a responciblity to set an example through demonstration. If I see a need in my community & posess the talent and will to address it, it becomes a duty (in other words, don’t take positions for egocentric reasons)

5) Passing the Torch: I have to know when it is time to step aside so future generations can progress. Holding a position of authority for to long can lead to complacency in both the leaders and the followers.

“Dealing with my sins” falls under the category of creative destruction. I admit that I’m going to make mistakes. I don’t define myself by these mistakes, but rather how I respond to them (ie. do I reflect, learn, grow and make amends?).
Perhaps your family's values have rubbed off on you more than you realize.

Have you asked them why they believe in God?
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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The evidence i always cite is look at history and you will find all kinds of civilizations that lost their land or were conquered and what happened to them. Within at least 200 years or so they became assimilated into whatever culture they were thrust into and lost their identity. Except for the hebrews 2000 years without a country and they remained true to their culture and managed to avoid being eradicated by several different peoples. Why because the God of the bible says they are his chosen people and they would remain so forever.
God's promise to Abraham remains intact to this very day
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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GreenNnice, oh so true, cause even Satan believes in God.
Not in though!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Satan and all evil knows God is truth, none of them put their belief in God
There is a difference. One can have Faith yet the ? is what is that Faith in and do you exercise that Faith
James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believeand tremble!
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Although,we as Christians will never attain perfection as Christ did.When you truly accept him in your heart he opens your spiritual eyes to see what you could not before.
So Sister do you see this yet.
Colossians 1:22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—

You are Holy from God's standpoint through Christ. This can never be from our viewpoint. So when can we see only from God's viewpoint are we not to renew our minds to God's viewpoint
Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Ephesians 4:23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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When you apply logical thinking to scripture, it is often distorted. God tells you how to read scripture, we are to read it as a little child. Logic says to analyze it, reason with it. God said He created the earth. How long did God take to do it? What was God's process? God says seven days, so was it accomplished in seven days? Logic. That is not why God told us about our creation. God told of that so we would know what to do about that God created us. God gave us seven days, we are to divide our time by that with the seventh used for rest. It isn't for our logic it is for our doing in response to the facts God gives us.

There isn't a word in the Hebrew language God originally used that speaks of only the ascetic. It always uses the action the ascetic sense of the words results in. When Hebrew was written with pictures, the word love was written with a picture of bringing gifts. It is only our modern minds that has separated being and doing.

God did not write the bible to be food for our logic and for our creative thinking.
And therefore it is not logical for me to be at rest 24/7 in Christ whom is my Sabbath
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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No,power exists in the laws and tradition.They are in the power of the blood of Christ,and if you accept that truth in your heart and stand for him in your life.Laws and tradition alone have no power.
Hebrews 12:2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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When you grow in your walk with GOD,that which is to some unexplained and illogical will manifest itself as known to you.seeing with your eyes is a physical perception.Any person who will truly humble themselves to walk with GOD wholehearted will be given the spiritual eyes to see that which to most makes no sense.This does strengthen ones faith and is not illogical in any way
Yes it is only to the flesh. Flesh does not understand the Spirituality from God to those that believe and are born again of the Spirit of God a free gift to us all if we believe
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Just commenting on this thread. Not trying to come off as sounding hateful. Just inputting a comment.

I find it odd that most atheist always say the have no belief, yet most "believe" in evolution. Whether its logical or not, and is not proven, only theoretical. Here is another atheist "belief", that when a person dies the body decays and there is nothing else. whether it is logical or not. Most even have "faith" in science even though science is fallible and has failed many,many times.

But when, we say we believe or have faith in God, we are labeled a nut case.

My two cents.
But are we not>:
1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
 
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Logic isn't possible if there is no God, it has to be one God, because there cannot be 2 forms of logic existing at the same time - the only reason humans can use logic, is because they were created in God's image
 
L

letti

Guest
Starcrash I admire your wisdom and knowledge on the correct terminology for ATHEISM.
 
L

letti

Guest
You can get a pretty good idea of those who have come to believe in GOD,if you listen to the testimonies people tell.GOD has chosen those people to know the truth,I stop to consider this.Those that were predestined.
 
L

letti

Guest
I don't feel the belief in GOD is illogical for those that are predestined to believe.That is given to them before they ever come to exist and it manifests when its GODS will for that to occur in ones life.
 
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GreenNnice

Guest
Logic isn't possible if there is no God, it has to be one God, because there cannot be 2 forms of logic existing at the same time - the only reason humans can use logic, is because they were created in God's image
But it doesn't have to be one God. It just has to be FAITH :)
-------------

to homewardbound : I know what you mean, brother, when you said 'something put this all together.' Right there, we know that we can either have faith that 'someone' put it altogether or 'some thing,' because 'something,' I don't think works for atheists or Christians, does it ?

Something made this Earth happen . No, some thing, a big bang or a big God or a big God who caused a big bang. Those, kind of, are our ONLY choices, aren't they. Or, do you believe in aliens, someones we've never REALLY seen but, maybe, through your faith in seeing flying saucers in photos, or, hearing stories of people who were abducted by aliens.

Hmmm, I don't see any bible on alien abductions anywhere, no proof, like a bible that has been believed, through faith, by more people than any other religion in the entire 9 billion plus people world.

Yeah, I know WHAT I choose to believe and it's not a 'what' at all, actually, it's a 'who,' it's a 'some One.' :)
 
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Ariel82

Guest
VanIsland,

If you want some advice on how to speak to your family about your unbelief, I would suggest you don't approach it as a thought experiment on whether or not its logical to believe in God. Most Christians will find that approach offensive.

If you truly want to learn about God, i would suggest you ask them for their testimony. Ask them how God has worked in their lives. What has reinforced their faith, etc.
 
M

Missachu

Guest
In mathmatical terms(since that this the MOST acceptable type of logic to all athiests) there are two improbabilities in math. Zero and Pi. Which is everything and nothing, because no matter how many times you divide zero you will always end up with zero and no matter how many times you divide Pi, you will never be able to end up with one number, Pi will always be Pi. Everything inbetween Zero and Pi will always be logical and the same no matter how you divide or multiply, subtract, ect.

1+1=2 <---That is a fact that will never change. You can change the structure of an equation and throw in fractions, multiplcation, decimals and the equation will change and equal something else but no matter what you do you will find a definite answer that will always be the same. See, this is life.

God is zero because it will never change, you cannot divide(dissect) it and it is the beginning and the end. Zero represents order in the mathematical world.

Pi is everything. It is chaotic and just...everything.

Most scientists are incapable of digging deeper and only see numbers, not answers. God gave us scientists so that we have formulas and processes to better understand the world around us and to understand that we are created in God's image which is why all Christians will tell you that God gave us logic and reason.

Not only was math and science created by early mesopotamians and arabs, but it was discovered in "the cradle of creation".