You cant really put God in a box of logic. He is a supernatural being if everything about supernatural beings was logical then why even consider them supernatural.... not to mention are idea of logic is only based on the way God created things.. it would be illogical for you to walk through a wall but if God wanted to he could snap his finger an make where you can walk through a wall... its pretty hard to consider God logical sence he is the creater of logic an if he wanted to ge could chwnge what was an wasnt loggical.
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John 20 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
God is trying to awaken our spiritual consciousness by not having us to use our physical perception. That's why we have to move by faith, but not by sight. The more spiritual awareness we become, the more we separarate from the body and which it is leading us away from perishing with the body. Just imagine if your body perish but your soul is trapped in the physical, it will not be able to move at will anymore (because it has depended on the body to serve it) but it is aware that there is life beyond death, and which that will be an everlasting torment for that soul. We must give birth to our spiritual soul in order for us to exist when the body perishes away. This spritual body can perform unlimited tasks and which the physical is limited. So we must grow spiritual every day in order to feed our soul, and leave our natural desires behind. This is what I've perceived when I read.
Romans 2:29
No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code( The written code is referring to the laws). Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God. (This verse is saying that a Jew isn't a person that follows the traditions of the old laws and which he saying that God isn't considering physical appearance of a person to be his people, but it is the soul that desires to be with Him; and circumcision only comes from our soul when it cut away from flesh.)
I am not better than you, we are talking about using logic to understand scripture and I am saying we need to use the kind of thinking that follows how the people thought and lived in the time these people were used to tell of God.
I don't admire your name calling, judgmental, attitude, and don't thing God does, either, but I do admire the work you have put in learning about God. I understand you feel I have belittled that work, I didn't mean to. You have belittled my hours and hours of work, and I don' feel good about that at all.
I don't admire your name calling, judgmental, attitude, and don't thing God does, either, but I do admire the work you have put in learning about God. I understand you feel I have belittled that work, I didn't mean to. You have belittled my hours and hours of work, and I don' feel good about that at all.
L
When you grow in your walk with GOD,that which is to some unexplained and illogical will manifest itself as known to you.seeing with your eyes is a physical perception.Any person who will truly humble themselves to walk with GOD wholehearted will be given the spiritual eyes to see that which to most makes no sense.This does strengthen ones faith and is not illogical in any way
VanIsland, there has been a good number of people on this Site since I have been here, arguing the same position as yourself. An interesting observation I made is that they all seem to be your age and smug as well. No doubt you are intelligent but you lack wisdom. Just to answer a couple of your questions. You can in fact sink to the top of a lake if the lake was covered in a buoyant passable substance. Now if the object was indeed immovable you could move absolutely everything else so comparatively the object is moved. I know a Joy, and if I asked her nice I'm sure she would get in a box. Now clearly you can see just how rational I am. When you say rationalize Yahweh I'm going to include Christ. If I relied only on the history of the Hebrews, then that might not count for much, they could have wrote it. If I based my faith on a story that Jesus rose from the dead, perhaps that could be faked. If I based it on specific times in my life I prayed and nothing short of miracles transpired you might think it was only a coincidence. However if you consider the Jewish people wrote many embarrassing stories about their horrible failures. If I was embellishing history books I would leave out my worst days. The prophecies had to be 100% accurate in order to be accepted, as well prophets had to perform miracles to be validated. All of the Messianic prophecies pointed to Christ Jesus. Many books, secular books from that era included the miracles of Jesus from Nazareth. If Jesus empty tomb was a hoax why would the apostles perpetuate that lie to their death. Through persecution, martyrdom and torture Christianity grew roots. Those who had first hand encounters with Jesus believed in Him enough to leave their jobs and homes to live on the road to share the Gospel. The Bible can not be refuted only backed up with archeology. If this wasn't enough to rationalize why I believe Yahweh to reign supreme. There is no other religious figure that reset the annual calendar so something must have been exceptional about Christ even if I didn't see it all with my own eyes. We can all only make intelligent assumptions about the past. I didn't live four hundred years ago but I can assume slavery did in fact exist. All things considered Christianity is based on more than just speculation so show some intellectual honesty and just concede to that.
V
@Hungry
"VanIsland, there has been a good number of people on this Site since I have been here, arguing the same position as yourself” --> I have asked questions. What position do you think I am arguing?
"I know a Joy, and if I asked her nice I'm sure she would get in a box. Now clearly you can see just how rational I am” --> rational? no. Dishonestly misrepresenting what I was saying? yes.
“an interesting observation I made is that they all seem to be your age and smug as well.” --> I am 22, what of it? as for being smug, you have no basis to make such a judgement
"No doubt you are intelligent but you lack wisdom” --> based on what observations?
"VanIsland, there has been a good number of people on this Site since I have been here, arguing the same position as yourself” --> I have asked questions. What position do you think I am arguing?
"I know a Joy, and if I asked her nice I'm sure she would get in a box. Now clearly you can see just how rational I am” --> rational? no. Dishonestly misrepresenting what I was saying? yes.
“an interesting observation I made is that they all seem to be your age and smug as well.” --> I am 22, what of it? as for being smug, you have no basis to make such a judgement
"No doubt you are intelligent but you lack wisdom” --> based on what observations?
V
@HeRoseFromTheDead
"The problem with your reasoning (if indeed the motive for your reasoning is discerning truth) is that it is based on the flawed premise that reality can only be discerned via 5 senses” --> not at all. Perhaps you misunderstood.
I will certainly concede that some conceptualizations of supernatural beings (beings I cannot discern by my 5 sense) are logically possible. I’m asking you about the god you believe in: Logically possible, logically impossible, or not bound by the rules of logic etc. Please go read my first Post & let me know if I wasn’t clear on something
"The problem with your reasoning (if indeed the motive for your reasoning is discerning truth) is that it is based on the flawed premise that reality can only be discerned via 5 senses” --> not at all. Perhaps you misunderstood.
I will certainly concede that some conceptualizations of supernatural beings (beings I cannot discern by my 5 sense) are logically possible. I’m asking you about the god you believe in: Logically possible, logically impossible, or not bound by the rules of logic etc. Please go read my first Post & let me know if I wasn’t clear on something
A
you may be talking about using logic to understand scripture. I was talking about having Christ and removing the veil that blinds people from reading and understanding scripture. I was talking about how learning the way the people in the OT thought does NOT give one the right understanding of scripture because you need JESUS to truly understand what God was saying throughout the OT.
and I don't admire you inability to admit that you were wrong and misunderstood my first statement. That instead of simply saying. "sorry, I thought you meant something else" you continue to tell me how I needed to humble myself and study more.
What name would you accuse me of calling you, besides bully?
I guess that is as close as an apology I'll get from you.
By telling you that all that work in learning the LAW and thinking like those still blinded by the veil and enslaved to the Old dead covenant is Paul's filthy rags?
I've spend hours and hours of work in study, but I know for a fact its all just filthy rags or just outer trappings. Its not what I study that I value the most but what God reveals through His Holy Spirit that really matter.
You still have not answered this question:
"perhaps you would show what "deeper insight" you might have on Elisha's servant and how he thought?"
and I don't admire you inability to admit that you were wrong and misunderstood my first statement. That instead of simply saying. "sorry, I thought you meant something else" you continue to tell me how I needed to humble myself and study more.
What name would you accuse me of calling you, besides bully?
I guess that is as close as an apology I'll get from you.
By telling you that all that work in learning the LAW and thinking like those still blinded by the veil and enslaved to the Old dead covenant is Paul's filthy rags?
I've spend hours and hours of work in study, but I know for a fact its all just filthy rags or just outer trappings. Its not what I study that I value the most but what God reveals through His Holy Spirit that really matter.
You still have not answered this question:
"perhaps you would show what "deeper insight" you might have on Elisha's servant and how he thought?"
Well obviously, my GOD is not bound by the laws of logic. Your reasoning seems to be bound by the idea that GOD can only exist as a conceptualization, i.e., a creation of man's mind. My GOD influences my mind, but is by no means a product of it. And the reason I know this is because the spirit is greater than the mind, and speaks with its own voice that is a reality apart from that discernible by the 5 senses.
You appear to be articulate and educated. Wisdom is achieved through humility. Your responses seem abrupt with a hint of superiority, even with people many years your senior. If you care, the Bible says that fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Once you accept that maybe you don't know as much as you think you do your humility will make room for wisdom.
Ariel and RedTent, with all respect, we're here answering VanIsland's questions, not having a side argument about something else. It doesn't matter to the topic whether you consider Elisha's actions 'logical' or not. Elisha reacting in whatever way he did, rational or no, to God's work is only a side issue, and doesn't bear directly on what VanIsland is asking.
Can I suggest that if you still want to discuss that particular issue, you make a new thread, or take it to PM? It's getting hard enough to track the discussion as it is.
Peace
Can I suggest that if you still want to discuss that particular issue, you make a new thread, or take it to PM? It's getting hard enough to track the discussion as it is.
Peace
Being "the creator of logic" wouldn't make you immune to it -- in fact, it would give us all the more reason to expect God to be logical, since it would obviously be something that he values (otherwise He wouldn't have invented it).
But I don't think you understand what logic means. How could it be "illogical" for you to walk through a wall? A logical syllogism is made up of a true statement, such as "People cannot walk through walls". Then it is made up of an example, such as "allaboutlove is a person". Then those premises lead to a natural conclusion, such as "therefore, allaboutlove cannot walk through walls". So I've proven your point, right? No. If a person could walk through walls (because God allowed it or whatever), then the syllogism wouldn't become "illogical" but rather "unsound" (meaning not all of the premises are true). Walking through walls isn't illogical just because it's impossible.
Logic isn't prescriptive but rather descriptive, or in other words, logic wasn't created to govern how things work but is rather a system that describes how things work. If things worked differently, then logic would be different so that it described that different way that things work.
But I don't think you understand what logic means. How could it be "illogical" for you to walk through a wall? A logical syllogism is made up of a true statement, such as "People cannot walk through walls". Then it is made up of an example, such as "allaboutlove is a person". Then those premises lead to a natural conclusion, such as "therefore, allaboutlove cannot walk through walls". So I've proven your point, right? No. If a person could walk through walls (because God allowed it or whatever), then the syllogism wouldn't become "illogical" but rather "unsound" (meaning not all of the premises are true). Walking through walls isn't illogical just because it's impossible.
Logic isn't prescriptive but rather descriptive, or in other words, logic wasn't created to govern how things work but is rather a system that describes how things work. If things worked differently, then logic would be different so that it described that different way that things work.
Nick, you have a point, but I beg to differ. Red Tent continually highjacks threads. I think it is in the best interests of this forum to address her, otherwise I will report her for her constant belittling everyone in every thread and also hijacking. I was going to reply to the following, although Ariel has done a fine job of doing so already. So just something brief, I promise, with apologies to VanIsland (Hey, I was out there for 2 weeks this summer - God's country, for sure! LOL)
These posts of yours, Red Tent, continue to be offensive and are thread jacks. I have yet to see you quote any Bible verses except Psalm 119, and never seen you post an understanding of the Hebrew language, which would indicate you have actually studied the Bible in deeper depth. I have studied Hebrew and Greek, plus read the Bible over 35 times from cover to covee in multiple. I feel certain that most of the Christians in this forum (and maybe the OP, an atheist!!) have also read the Bible cover to cover.
It is degrading of you to constantly tell us that we know nothing, when many have studied both Old and New Testaments to a depth you will never achieve. I say that, because you continue to push your legalistic version of salvation in every thread, which has bound and cast you into Sheol. Legalism is from the devil, not the Bible. Truly, Christ warned the Pharisees of this very sin!
Please either talk about the actual questions or discussion in the thread, and stop pushing your smug religiosity on everyone here. Until you find out for sure that no one has read the Old Testament, (which is simply NOT the case in this forum) then stop acting like you have a message straight from an Old Testament prophet to deliver - or maybe in some twisted way you think you are an Old Testament prophet?
As for VanIsland, I urge you to stop trying to proselytize your religion here. NOT believing in God is as much a religion as believing in God.
A-theist. "A" prefix from the Greek meaning "against" or "instead of."
"theist" from the Greek meaning "one who studies God."
Even the definition of your religion requires you to reference God, who is the Creator, Sustainer, Saviour and Redeemer.
I can say without doubt that faith is something that God gives us, and all the debate about logic and proofs in the world, will not sway a single person here.
So are you doing this on a dare? Summer boredom?
Do you or did you go to UVic? A friend of my daughter's went there from Alberta to study philosophy and got sucked in by so-called logic, too. My thought is you should write a book on your beliefs and share it with other atheists. I have too many good Christian books, and the Bible and language study to read it, but it might get this out of your system - Christian baiting, for want of a better word. And yes, you have been very respectful, VanIsland just wondering why you started this thread in the first place, since it seems like most people do not have the philosophical background to debate logic as you are attempting to do here.
And just a final question for the OP. What are you going to do with your sin on Judgement Day? We are warning you, as the Bible clearly tells us to. So you will be without excuse if you do not repent and turn to Jesus Christ.
Once again, sorry for abducting your thread at the outset!
(P.S. SFU was my undergrad, and Seminary for my MDiv!)
These posts of yours, Red Tent, continue to be offensive and are thread jacks. I have yet to see you quote any Bible verses except Psalm 119, and never seen you post an understanding of the Hebrew language, which would indicate you have actually studied the Bible in deeper depth. I have studied Hebrew and Greek, plus read the Bible over 35 times from cover to covee in multiple. I feel certain that most of the Christians in this forum (and maybe the OP, an atheist!!) have also read the Bible cover to cover.
It is degrading of you to constantly tell us that we know nothing, when many have studied both Old and New Testaments to a depth you will never achieve. I say that, because you continue to push your legalistic version of salvation in every thread, which has bound and cast you into Sheol. Legalism is from the devil, not the Bible. Truly, Christ warned the Pharisees of this very sin!
Please either talk about the actual questions or discussion in the thread, and stop pushing your smug religiosity on everyone here. Until you find out for sure that no one has read the Old Testament, (which is simply NOT the case in this forum) then stop acting like you have a message straight from an Old Testament prophet to deliver - or maybe in some twisted way you think you are an Old Testament prophet?
As for VanIsland, I urge you to stop trying to proselytize your religion here. NOT believing in God is as much a religion as believing in God.
A-theist. "A" prefix from the Greek meaning "against" or "instead of."
"theist" from the Greek meaning "one who studies God."
Even the definition of your religion requires you to reference God, who is the Creator, Sustainer, Saviour and Redeemer.
I can say without doubt that faith is something that God gives us, and all the debate about logic and proofs in the world, will not sway a single person here.
So are you doing this on a dare? Summer boredom?
Do you or did you go to UVic? A friend of my daughter's went there from Alberta to study philosophy and got sucked in by so-called logic, too. My thought is you should write a book on your beliefs and share it with other atheists. I have too many good Christian books, and the Bible and language study to read it, but it might get this out of your system - Christian baiting, for want of a better word. And yes, you have been very respectful, VanIsland just wondering why you started this thread in the first place, since it seems like most people do not have the philosophical background to debate logic as you are attempting to do here.
And just a final question for the OP. What are you going to do with your sin on Judgement Day? We are warning you, as the Bible clearly tells us to. So you will be without excuse if you do not repent and turn to Jesus Christ.
Once again, sorry for abducting your thread at the outset!
(P.S. SFU was my undergrad, and Seminary for my MDiv!)
1 Corinthians 15 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.
T
The beloved disciple who knew Jesus very well wrote an excellent book about who is Jesus, what is said, what he did and what happen. This is an eyewitness account that can be trusted. The only logical conclusion that can be draw from this true account is that God exists and is in full control of the creation. The book is called the " Good News according to John the Evangelist " .
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. John 20, 31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. John 20, 31
You really ought to look these things up before quoting them as fact. Citations would be even better.
The prefix "a-" in this instance means "not" or "without" (see definition #6). "Anti-" means against, not "a-".
Theism is not "the study of God" (that's theology) but rather "belief in God".
Atheism, whether or not the parts of the word make up the whole, is already defined. Why are you trying to convince an atheist that you know what it means better than atheists do?
It's also useful to note that atheism is not a religion, as religion is "a set of beliefs" and atheism is a lack of belief. While it's true that a person who believes that no god exists would also be defined as an atheist, that still wouldn't constitute a "set" of beliefs... believing that waffles taste good, for example, would not mean that you have a religion based on such a belief. But even if we granted that atheism was a religion, then why would you argue against someone proselytizing such a belief system? Do you hold a double-standard in which it is acceptable to publicly promote Christianity but not atheism? Do you feel that your right to free speech (or freedom of religion) ought to be upheld but an atheist's right to free speech (or freedom of religion) ought to be withheld?
The prefix "a-" in this instance means "not" or "without" (see definition #6). "Anti-" means against, not "a-".
Theism is not "the study of God" (that's theology) but rather "belief in God".
Atheism, whether or not the parts of the word make up the whole, is already defined. Why are you trying to convince an atheist that you know what it means better than atheists do?
It's also useful to note that atheism is not a religion, as religion is "a set of beliefs" and atheism is a lack of belief. While it's true that a person who believes that no god exists would also be defined as an atheist, that still wouldn't constitute a "set" of beliefs... believing that waffles taste good, for example, would not mean that you have a religion based on such a belief. But even if we granted that atheism was a religion, then why would you argue against someone proselytizing such a belief system? Do you hold a double-standard in which it is acceptable to publicly promote Christianity but not atheism? Do you feel that your right to free speech (or freedom of religion) ought to be upheld but an atheist's right to free speech (or freedom of religion) ought to be withheld?
Thanks for the reply, Angela. Perhaps unlike you, I'm choosing to approach both RedTent and VanIsland as if they were genuine in their desire for discussion. I may be wrong, but I feel that's the best way to approach discussion on the forum.
So again, that's why I asked RedTent to take the discussion on Elisha elsewhere. Red, I think it is best for the current discussion if you do so. Nothing wrong with having that discussion, but perhaps not here. I hope that you can see the best thing for this particular thread is to focus on the specific matters at hand, rather than taking the discussion in other directions
As for VanIsland, I have seen very little that makes me think he is here to stir. In fact, it hasn't even looked as if he's trying to start an argument - the questions themselves assume very little in terms of a right or wrong answer, and so I'm happy to take that at face value. Of course, he has yet to reply directly to me (nothing wrong with that, of course), so I don't know what manner of discussion he will wish to have. But I think it's worthwhile assuming an honest discussion, instead of seeing traps and antagonism behind every door.
I think he's entitled to post a discussion on this forum. There's nothing forcing anyone to participate in it. I'm also happy to discuss on his terms, seeing as he is the OP. As I mentioned earlier, I don't think a rational acceptance of the existence of God equals Christian faith - you are quite right, Angela, to say that faith is something that God gives. However, I also believe all truth is God's truth. If we are given the ability to reason, discuss, and assess, it can only be because God also reveals himself through those means. So it is a discussion that is worth having.
For what it's worth, VanIsland, I'm glad you posted this thread. My own faith did not spring primarily from a logical reasoning to God, but there is much to be known of God in the rational realm. The Bible is full of interesting thinking and reasoning about God, about faith, and about life, as are many writings by many Christian thinkers throughout the ages. I don't think this is coincidence, given God himself through the prophet Isaiah says “Come, let us discuss this.” The Christian God is not above telling us about himself. So, let us discuss this
So again, that's why I asked RedTent to take the discussion on Elisha elsewhere. Red, I think it is best for the current discussion if you do so. Nothing wrong with having that discussion, but perhaps not here. I hope that you can see the best thing for this particular thread is to focus on the specific matters at hand, rather than taking the discussion in other directions
As for VanIsland, I have seen very little that makes me think he is here to stir. In fact, it hasn't even looked as if he's trying to start an argument - the questions themselves assume very little in terms of a right or wrong answer, and so I'm happy to take that at face value. Of course, he has yet to reply directly to me (nothing wrong with that, of course), so I don't know what manner of discussion he will wish to have. But I think it's worthwhile assuming an honest discussion, instead of seeing traps and antagonism behind every door.
I think he's entitled to post a discussion on this forum. There's nothing forcing anyone to participate in it. I'm also happy to discuss on his terms, seeing as he is the OP. As I mentioned earlier, I don't think a rational acceptance of the existence of God equals Christian faith - you are quite right, Angela, to say that faith is something that God gives. However, I also believe all truth is God's truth. If we are given the ability to reason, discuss, and assess, it can only be because God also reveals himself through those means. So it is a discussion that is worth having.
For what it's worth, VanIsland, I'm glad you posted this thread. My own faith did not spring primarily from a logical reasoning to God, but there is much to be known of God in the rational realm. The Bible is full of interesting thinking and reasoning about God, about faith, and about life, as are many writings by many Christian thinkers throughout the ages. I don't think this is coincidence, given God himself through the prophet Isaiah says “Come, let us discuss this.” The Christian God is not above telling us about himself. So, let us discuss this