Benefits of Speaking, Praying, and Singing in Tongues
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If you use one verse (1. Cor. 14,5)as a fact and another which is the same kind not (1.Cor.7, 7) Then this is for me a Bible interpretation according that what somebody want that the bible says, but not what the bible really says. In this manner many false cults and doctrines are came up.
You cant tell me that 1800 years all christians had a false picture from the revealedie scripture and suddenly the Holy Spirit reveals something different.
Yes you can believe what you want. And you also are responsible what you teach. That's not my Job to judge it.
One question from where you got the teaching with the nine manifestations? Dont say me the bible. A JW will me also say there teaching is from the bible. Which Person ore church is teaching this ( out of Charles Shamp)?
You cant tell me that 1800 years all christians had a false picture from the revealedie scripture and suddenly the Holy Spirit reveals something different.
Yes you can believe what you want. And you also are responsible what you teach. That's not my Job to judge it.
One question from where you got the teaching with the nine manifestations? Dont say me the bible. A JW will me also say there teaching is from the bible. Which Person ore church is teaching this ( out of Charles Shamp)?
Looking at 1 Cor7. getting married is not prohecy bringing a new revelation from God that could be added to the the perfect/complete word, the Bible
You say there are no verses countering 1 Cor 14:5. which is true, but just what is it saying in respect to the context of the whole chapter?
1Co 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesied than he that speaketh with tongues, except he (not they) interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
The emphasis is on Paul understanding what they say .Not them understanding what Paul said which is part of the gift.
It would like if you spoke Spanish and not English and walked into a assembly that had no understanding of what you understood and vise versa .(cauos and confussion...the Tower of Babel)
I would offer that the Holy Spirit who put his words in the mouth of Paul as prophecy “the gift” that in respect to that gift "prophecy" that the Holy Spirit did not discourage a person from speaking in his own language amongst those of another, like that of Peter and was interpreted by the Holy Spirit into many languages all at the same time. They heard each other in their own langugaes.
This is while he was still brining new prophecy which came to a completion and a warning was added not to add from the perfect. Today God is no longer bringing new prophecy in any manner. The prophecy that exists (the Bible) is still doing it work of confirming unbelief called a tongue a sign not to those who believe prophecy .
Those who say God is still be bringing new prohecy as private interpretations fall under the warning not to add or subtract from the whole.
It would seem they were neglecting the greater desire to declare the word of God (prophecy) among those who had a like language. If God did interpret His word (prophecy) the conversation between the two then one who hopes he is declaring the word of God should remain silent. Or they would be like barbarians to one another and the gospel would not get out.
The gospel requires a two way converstaion.
1Co 14:11 Therefore if I know not "the meaning of the voice",(of the other person) I shall be unto him(the other person) that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
You say there are no verses countering 1 Cor 14:5. which is true, but just what is it saying in respect to the context of the whole chapter?
1Co 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesied than he that speaketh with tongues, except he (not they) interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
The emphasis is on Paul understanding what they say .Not them understanding what Paul said which is part of the gift.
It would like if you spoke Spanish and not English and walked into a assembly that had no understanding of what you understood and vise versa .(cauos and confussion...the Tower of Babel)
I would offer that the Holy Spirit who put his words in the mouth of Paul as prophecy “the gift” that in respect to that gift "prophecy" that the Holy Spirit did not discourage a person from speaking in his own language amongst those of another, like that of Peter and was interpreted by the Holy Spirit into many languages all at the same time. They heard each other in their own langugaes.
This is while he was still brining new prophecy which came to a completion and a warning was added not to add from the perfect. Today God is no longer bringing new prophecy in any manner. The prophecy that exists (the Bible) is still doing it work of confirming unbelief called a tongue a sign not to those who believe prophecy .
Those who say God is still be bringing new prohecy as private interpretations fall under the warning not to add or subtract from the whole.
It would seem they were neglecting the greater desire to declare the word of God (prophecy) among those who had a like language. If God did interpret His word (prophecy) the conversation between the two then one who hopes he is declaring the word of God should remain silent. Or they would be like barbarians to one another and the gospel would not get out.
The gospel requires a two way converstaion.
1Co 14:11 Therefore if I know not "the meaning of the voice",(of the other person) I shall be unto him(the other person) that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
Speaking in tongues is real language of men or of angels.
With regards to ‘real language of men’ with respect to tongues, I guess it depends on how you are defining ‘tongues’; real language(s) or the modern Pentecostal/Charismatic tongues speech?
With regards to “angelic language(s)” - The one and only Biblical reference to it is pure hyperbole. In traditional Jewish belief, angels spoke and understood one language only, and a real one at that: Hebrew.
A bit of background on this…..the language spoken by angels is commented on in the Mishnah (official commentaries on the Torah). Traditional belief, according to the Mishnah, is that when a person prays, an angel will deliver the message to God (remember the meaning of ‘angel’ is simply 'messenger'), but for this to happen, the prayer must be said in Hebrew, not in (what at one time was the more vernacular language) Aramaic.
The reason for this, according to Jewish belief (and also commented upon in the Mishnah) is that angels do not understand Aramaic; only Hebrew. Thus too, if one wishes to bypass the angels and have the prayer go directly to God, the person prays in Aramaic. Indeed, even today some traditional prayers are still specifically recited in Aramaic.
Some commentaries in the Mishnah opine that angels do in fact understand Aramaic; they just do not hold the language in very high regard. Thus, if they hear a prayer in Aramaic, they are likely to ignore it as it is not considered to be of much value. This opinion is not shared by the majority of believers however; more common is the belief that angels simply do not understand Aramaic as they speak only Hebrew.
Still other comments found in the Mishnah state that each of the seventy nations mentioned in Genesis had an angel assigned to that nation (Israel's for example, was Michael) and that angel spoke only the language of that country and no other.
Though the specific language(s) of angels may be debated in the Mishnah, traditional belief is that they are nonetheless all real languages. This is the tradition the apostles would have grown up in; not that there was some sort of exclusive angelic/heavenly language.
With regards to ‘real language of men’ with respect to tongues, I guess it depends on how you are defining ‘tongues’; real language(s) or the modern Pentecostal/Charismatic tongues speech?
With regards to “angelic language(s)” - The one and only Biblical reference to it is pure hyperbole. In traditional Jewish belief, angels spoke and understood one language only, and a real one at that: Hebrew.
A bit of background on this…..the language spoken by angels is commented on in the Mishnah (official commentaries on the Torah). Traditional belief, according to the Mishnah, is that when a person prays, an angel will deliver the message to God (remember the meaning of ‘angel’ is simply 'messenger'), but for this to happen, the prayer must be said in Hebrew, not in (what at one time was the more vernacular language) Aramaic.
The reason for this, according to Jewish belief (and also commented upon in the Mishnah) is that angels do not understand Aramaic; only Hebrew. Thus too, if one wishes to bypass the angels and have the prayer go directly to God, the person prays in Aramaic. Indeed, even today some traditional prayers are still specifically recited in Aramaic.
Some commentaries in the Mishnah opine that angels do in fact understand Aramaic; they just do not hold the language in very high regard. Thus, if they hear a prayer in Aramaic, they are likely to ignore it as it is not considered to be of much value. This opinion is not shared by the majority of believers however; more common is the belief that angels simply do not understand Aramaic as they speak only Hebrew.
Still other comments found in the Mishnah state that each of the seventy nations mentioned in Genesis had an angel assigned to that nation (Israel's for example, was Michael) and that angel spoke only the language of that country and no other.
Though the specific language(s) of angels may be debated in the Mishnah, traditional belief is that they are nonetheless all real languages. This is the tradition the apostles would have grown up in; not that there was some sort of exclusive angelic/heavenly language.
Thanks for that great information..
One mediator between God and man, Christ the living abiding word of God . His work is not accredited to those messengers he sends with it..our one source of faith by which we can belive Him who has no form
1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
To speak is to understand what is being said (the hearing of faith, Christ’s). It is not speaking into the air and hearing the reply of the winds as doctrines of men.
To understand the prophecy that the angels bring they must be of the language of men, as the Holy Spirit interprets them through his messengers like those of Christ, the living abiding word of God .
Angels have no language of their own as if they were the authors of scripture
Christ is the arch messenger or chief Sheppard of our souls.. it would be in respect to Michael.. which mean who is like God, other than God Himself ?( a rhetorical question). In the last days he spoke through Him, the son of man .
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Which messenger did he say to ; Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
One mediator between God and man, Christ the living abiding word of God . His work is not accredited to those messengers he sends with it..our one source of faith by which we can belive Him who has no form
1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
To speak is to understand what is being said (the hearing of faith, Christ’s). It is not speaking into the air and hearing the reply of the winds as doctrines of men.
To understand the prophecy that the angels bring they must be of the language of men, as the Holy Spirit interprets them through his messengers like those of Christ, the living abiding word of God .
Angels have no language of their own as if they were the authors of scripture
Christ is the arch messenger or chief Sheppard of our souls.. it would be in respect to Michael.. which mean who is like God, other than God Himself ?( a rhetorical question). In the last days he spoke through Him, the son of man .
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Which messenger did he say to ; Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
I question your sincerity...
Admittedly, I'm a little late to this party. I just jouned the forum a couple of weeks ago. Can you please link to one place where you have "refuted tongues as related to the modern church through the scriptures in great detail"?
The whole of scripture? Please give one example. (besides 1 Cor 13:8ff. I am quite familiar with cessationists take on that verse..)
Admittedly, I'm a little late to this party. I just jouned the forum a couple of weeks ago. Can you please link to one place where you have "refuted tongues as related to the modern church through the scriptures in great detail"?
The whole of scripture? Please give one example. (besides 1 Cor 13:8ff. I am quite familiar with cessationists take on that verse..)
Neither is speaking in tongues.
That all Christians should desire to speak in tongues.
When a person speaks in tongues in public, it must be interpreted so people can understand what was said, and be edified.
If I spoke Spanish it would be stupid to walk into a meeting where people spoke English and try and teach.
I do not understand the first part, can you clarify?
The tongues spoken by the apostles were not interpreted by the Holy Spirit. The tongues the apostles were speaking WERE the languages of the foreigners present.
So you do not believe in prophesy? I do. Prophesy is not "adding to the Bible".
The manifestation of prophesy exists today, and we are to covet to prophesy.
I don't think you know what prophesy is...
Tongues is not prophesy. The purpose of tongues is not for the gospel to "get out". It is for the edification of individuals, and when spoken in public and interpreted, it edifies the church.
Yes. People must hear, and be able to understand what it being said. Again, speaking in tongues is not for spreading the gospel, it is not for missionary work.
Yes. In public, when a person speaks in tongues and does not interpret, it is useless except to the one speaking. He should either speak in tongues with the intent to interpret, or shut up.
That all Christians should desire to speak in tongues.
When a person speaks in tongues in public, it must be interpreted so people can understand what was said, and be edified.
If I spoke Spanish it would be stupid to walk into a meeting where people spoke English and try and teach.
I do not understand the first part, can you clarify?
The tongues spoken by the apostles were not interpreted by the Holy Spirit. The tongues the apostles were speaking WERE the languages of the foreigners present.
So you do not believe in prophesy? I do. Prophesy is not "adding to the Bible".
The manifestation of prophesy exists today, and we are to covet to prophesy.
I don't think you know what prophesy is...
Tongues is not prophesy. The purpose of tongues is not for the gospel to "get out". It is for the edification of individuals, and when spoken in public and interpreted, it edifies the church.
Yes. People must hear, and be able to understand what it being said. Again, speaking in tongues is not for spreading the gospel, it is not for missionary work.
Yes. In public, when a person speaks in tongues and does not interpret, it is useless except to the one speaking. He should either speak in tongues with the intent to interpret, or shut up.
Luke 18:9 ¶ And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Yes, Paul said I would like in 1. Cor.14, 5 and you treat this as a fact that all can do it. In the same way Paul said I would like all men are Single in 1. Cor 7, 7 but here you have no problem to take it as it was said. Why you make a different to 1. Cor 14,5 ? This Shows me that you take the scripture according you need it for to proof your view.
And this I found in the whole charismatic and pentecostal movement in their doctrine about the Holy Spirit and the so called sign gifts!
I am not judging you.I just questioning the pentecostal and charismatic doctrine. The bible says we should test the spirits. This is what I do.
Another thing what I find strange is that speaking in tongues becomes in the above mentioned movements such a important positIon, that normal talking to the father seems to be worthless. This is not what the bible says!
You asked why it stopped? read 1. Cor. 1, 8 !
AnD yes it had stopped also the miracles and healings had stopped. This was the reason why the Montanism movement could raise up in a such way. It was a prophet ich movement, but not from God!
Why the gifts stopped after a while God knows.
Yes we find miracles and wonders and healings during the churchhistory, but never in this Power as it was in the Apostolic days. We have the last days. And Jesus said what we will find in the last days. The Devil is coming as Angel of light and try es to deceive even the selectet.
Miracles, Wonders,, Healings, Speaking in tongues are for Him no problem.
Test the Spinitial! My Observation is that people tend to run after people with special abilitys and great words.
They say every thing is good what helpes, doesnt matter what is behind. God is not behind everything what is being done in His Name.
And this I found in the whole charismatic and pentecostal movement in their doctrine about the Holy Spirit and the so called sign gifts!
I am not judging you.I just questioning the pentecostal and charismatic doctrine. The bible says we should test the spirits. This is what I do.
Another thing what I find strange is that speaking in tongues becomes in the above mentioned movements such a important positIon, that normal talking to the father seems to be worthless. This is not what the bible says!
You asked why it stopped? read 1. Cor. 1, 8 !
AnD yes it had stopped also the miracles and healings had stopped. This was the reason why the Montanism movement could raise up in a such way. It was a prophet ich movement, but not from God!
Why the gifts stopped after a while God knows.
Yes we find miracles and wonders and healings during the churchhistory, but never in this Power as it was in the Apostolic days. We have the last days. And Jesus said what we will find in the last days. The Devil is coming as Angel of light and try es to deceive even the selectet.
Miracles, Wonders,, Healings, Speaking in tongues are for Him no problem.
Test the Spinitial! My Observation is that people tend to run after people with special abilitys and great words.
They say every thing is good what helpes, doesnt matter what is behind. God is not behind everything what is being done in His Name.
How many have trouble praying in the Spirit because they don't like what they don't understand, and many like to pray in tongue's because the enemy doesn't understand. Actually we enter God's presence with thanksgiving and the enemy is paralysed whether understood or not. But praying in the Spirit is like a wind acting on a sailboat, moving forward by the spirit in adverse circumstances by tacking into the wind of the Spirit.