Birth of the New Testament Church

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Hevosmies

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Sep 8, 2018
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from the Day of Pentecost until 325 a.d. all water baptisms were done in the singular name of Jesus. Since 325 a.d. when "clergy" decided they knew better
May God Bless You.
False false and more false.
Fake history sir.

Didache is from the 1st century and it states:

"But concerning baptism, thus baptize ye: having first recited all these precepts, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in running water;"

So you are just making history up as you go along are you? NOTHING about baptism was decided in 325.. have you even studied this out? Or just repeating what someone told you somewhere ? the nicean council got nothing to do with baptism
 
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Jesus was expressing that Peter was blessed to have been given revelation from God (not from Peter )that Jesus was indeed the Messiah And peter was not the one bringing the blessing as the blesser . Some perform that same kind of error with our dear sister in the Lord Marry .Taking away the power to bless for God not seen . Mankind seeking a blessing from her.

Peter received a blessing in the same way all believers are blessed of God not seen, the eternal and not blessed by man (flesh and blood ) seen the temporal .

Christians walk or receive the interpretation of God by the unseen (faith) it has nothing to with anyone's flesh and blood to include the Son of man who declared His literal flesh and blood profits for nothing. The work of salvation is spiritual unseen.


2 Corinthians 4:7And we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us;...…….. (not of Peter or Mary)

we not looking to the things seen, but to the things not seen; for the things "seen" [are] temporary, but the things not seen [are] age-during.2 Corinthians 4:18

The "it" represents the faith of Christ that worked in Peter not from or of Peter. Christ's faith as a labor of His love is not dead and needs Peter the blasphemer to breath into "it" life .

The same "it" as in as "it" is written (sola scriptura)

Three times in Mathew 4 "It" is shown as the unseen work of God .After the third again as "it" is written as that which represents the faith or power of Christ is written the devil fled


All Christians have the authority or power of "it" having been loosed in the heavens bound on Peter's heart like all of his children .Not from Peter who is flesh and blood. It was not flesh and blood that revealed "it" (the answer Christ) unto Peter. So why would it be of Peter?
There are two separate things being spoken of here by Jesus: God revealing to Peter that Jesus is the Messiah. And the second is the topic of the giving of keys to the kingdom.
I thought you might be interested in what bible commentaries outline about the keys issue:
[The keys of the kingdom] By the kingdom of heaven, we may consider the true church, that house of God, to be meant; and by the keys, the power of admitting into that house, or of preventing any improper person from coming in. In other words, the doctrine of salvation, and the full declaration of the way in which God will save sinners; and who they are that shall be finally excluded from heaven; and on what account. When the Jews made a man a doctor of the law, they put into his hand the key of the closet in the temple where the sacred books were kept, and also tablets to write upon; signifying, by this, that they gave him authority to teach, and to explain the Scriptures to the people.-Martin. This prophetic declaration of our Lord was literally fulfilled to Peter, as he was made the first instrument of opening, i.e. preaching the doctrines of the kingdom of heaven to the Jews, Acts 2:41; and to the Gentiles, Acts 10:44-47; 11:1; 15:7... from Adam Clarke's Commentary, Electronic Database
 
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False false and more false.
Fake history sir.

Didache is from the 1st century and it states:

"But concerning baptism, thus baptize ye: having first recited all these precepts, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in running water;"

So you are just making history up as you go along are you? NOTHING about baptism was decided in 325.. have you even studied this out? Or just repeating what someone told you somewhere ? the nicean council got nothing to do with baptism
The following is from a former catholic church member and was posted elsewhere within this website:
Coming from a family with a Catholic background (also Judaism - Protestantism) I was aware of some things the majority never had access to, or would never know even existed. I have taken the liberty to copy/paste an attachment for your viewing to show why I personally follow how they were baptized in the Book of Acts:
1544137994390.png
Look at last paragraph. This is from the Vatican (Catholic) Bible Catechism: They claim the baptismal formula in the Bible and up to the 4th century was done in "Jesus Name." And then it was changed in the 4th Century to Father-Son-Holy Ghost. I wonder then if that means by change..they changed the Bible in Matthew 28:19?? If so, which after knowing this information from the Vatican Bible Catechism, I began believing that Jesus did teach to baptize in His Name since we see in the Book of Acts them baptizing that way. Who knows, but the Vatican believes this is what actually happened and they wrote about it..

I do not believe Matthew 28:19 was changed as the individual wonders. However, the booklets baptism info. can be easily found in many Bible dictionaries.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
1,138
414
83
The following is from a former catholic church member and was posted elsewhere within this website:
Coming from a family with a Catholic background (also Judaism - Protestantism) I was aware of some things the majority never had access to, or would never know even existed. I have taken the liberty to copy/paste an attachment for your viewing to show why I personally follow how they were baptized in the Book of Acts:
View attachment 191593
Look at last paragraph. This is from the Vatican (Catholic) Bible Catechism: They claim the baptismal formula in the Bible and up to the 4th century was done in "Jesus Name." And then it was changed in the 4th Century to Father-Son-Holy Ghost. I wonder then if that means by change..they changed the Bible in Matthew 28:19?? If so, which after knowing this information from the Vatican Bible Catechism, I began believing that Jesus did teach to baptize in His Name since we see in the Book of Acts them baptizing that way. Who knows, but the Vatican believes this is what actually happened and they wrote about it..

I do not believe Matthew 28:19 was changed as the individual wonders. However, the booklets baptism info. can be easily found in many Bible dictionaries.
Thanks for this. I will do research on this and if it checks out, wow, what a shock

Btw: Do you believe Jesus was God?
Trinity? Sorry if you already answered this
 
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It appears we have a couple of Catholic apologists who joined here about the same time and now tag team in threads.

This is a Christian site, not a Catholic site, right? :)
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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If you grace only folks wish to teach it is ok to go out and live in sin,
I believe salvation is by Grace 100%.. But i do not teach it is ok to go out and live in sin.. And i must say i have hardly ever seen anyone in the ""grace only folks" side of the isle who preach that it is ok to sin.. That seems to be a favourite strawman works salvation believers want to build around grace believers so they can then burn them..

this is your eternity, mine is to obey god in all He says and this means hearing and doing what Jesus Christ teaches.
The fact is you will inevitably fail to obey God in all He says.. You probably fail on one point or another each and ever day of your life..
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
3,765
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It appears we have a couple of Catholic apologists who joined here about the same time and now tag team in threads.

This is a Christian site, not a Catholic site, right? :)
Yes this is a Christian site.. Not a catholic religion site..

So we must hope for diligent moderation to keep the papal cultists who may wander in here under control..
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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I believe salvation is by Grace 100%.. But i do not teach it is ok to go out and live in sin.. And i must say i have hardly ever seen anyone in the ""grace only folks" side of the isle who preach that it is ok to sin.. That seems to be a favourite strawman works salvation believers want to build around grace believers so they can then burn them..



The fact is you will inevitably fail to obey God in all He says.. You probably fail on one point or another each and ever day of your life..

This all sounds good, but to teach against obeying the law as it stands now given by Jesus Christ, this is saying sin is just fine because sin IS BREAKING THE LAW.

But first all must learn from Jesus Christ what the la is now since He has fulfilled most of it, and they have to believe Him when He says thel law remans to be taughgt for none of it changes, not even the jots and tiddles will be removed...………...heaven and earth may pass away but not the law…...

Stop lestening to the self-deceved and ehar Jesus Christ on this matter, do not rely on me or anyone else either way, learn from Jesus.

We are allsaved by mercy theny graced unto us, but in order to continue receiving God's grace we must do His Word not echo only what is heard from other men.
 
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Paul teaches you "shall we sin more so that we may have more grace, God forbid!"

Sin is disobeying the law. If you grace only folks wish to teach it is ok to go out and live in sin, this is your eternity, mine is to obey god in all He says and this means hearing and doing what Jesus Christ teaches.

I am very sorry, you think that is being "under the law." That is a cagtch phrase for all who teach dsobedience, be it directly or obliquely.

Total misrepresentation of others.

It's unfortunately just more of the JaumeJ "inquisition" on Paul's Scriptures and others under under grace.

Then of course his own horn is tooted (again) about how he obeys the law and how others do not; Luke 18:9-14.



It's interesting that according to JaumeJ nearly all churches are wrong, nearly all others are wrong, but he is not wrong. If you go against his errors he says you're on an "inquisition." LOL! Wow...
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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This all sounds good,
Thats because it is good.. The Good News.. The Gospel..

but to teach against obeying the law as it stands now given by Jesus Christ, this is saying sin is just fine because sin IS BREAKING THE LAW.
Well i do not teach against striving to follow the Law.. I teach against the belief that ones striving to do the law is a factor in the mix when it comes to a persons salvational status with God..

But first all must learn from Jesus Christ what the la is now since He has fulfilled most of it, and they have to believe Him when He says thel law remans to be taughgt for none of it changes, not even the jots and tiddles will be removed...………...heaven and earth may pass away but not the law…...
I believe the Law is an effective tool for convicting people of their sins and thus it leads them to embrace the Way of salvation which is by the Grace of the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ.. They embrace the love of the truth because they know thats the only Way they can have eternity with The Perfect God of all existence.. They realise they cannot win or maintain their salvation by succeding in doing the Law..

Stop lestening to the self-deceved and ehar Jesus Christ on this matter, do not rely on me or anyone else either way, learn from Jesus.
Amen.. thats good advice.. Seek God and learn from Him directly through His Holy Bible..

We are allsaved by mercy theny graced unto us, but in order to continue receiving God's grace we must do His Word not echo only what is heard from other men.
And this is where you fall down... Once a person believes and preaches that one MUST do the LAW after one has been saved to maintain their salvation status then all they need to do is fail to do Jesus's perfect Law ONCE .. Just ONCE.. then they have fallen away from salvation..

The whole point of the Law was,, and still is,, to reveal to mankind our total unworthyness.. Our hopeless situation.. Why we needed the rightiousness of Jesus to Redeem us.. Why our attempts at rightiousness are as filthy rags to God.... Why Because God is Perfect.
 

Epiales

Junior Member
Jan 21, 2018
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I assume the catholics edited these scriptures and removed "WATER" from them?

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood (and water), we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood (and water), the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross (and water), by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death (and water), to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood (and water); and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood (and water), we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son (and water) cleanseth us from all sin.

I'm not sure what the catholic bible really has in their scriptures, but I highly doubt they have the above examples.

Really? We are so focused on water baptism and how one must say the words, that we ignore the rest of the scriptures that are completely EVIDENT when it comes to how one must be saved. Reading this thread almost gave me a headache :D And really saddened me that we have become to legalistic that we argue over things unrelated to our salvation in Him and Him alone!

If it were so important for us to be baptized in water to be saved, then the following verses would have said:

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him (and is water baptized) should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved (if they believe and are water baptized).

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord (and get water baptized) shall be saved.

Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (and get water baptized) , and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

And the list goes on... I mean, I would think that Christ would DEFINITELY tell us how to be saved, without a shadow of a doubt.... uh... since He's the one that chose to die for us and 'save' us. I mean, isn't salvation His purpose?

SMH! You guys are just silly! And in being silly, you may just cause someone to stumble in all u're legalistic theological 'opinions'.

With that said, if someone's worried about water baptism, just get baptized. In the name of Jesus or in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit! It's not for your salvation, but is something I think we should desire if we are saved. God knows the intent of your hearts, and He also knows if u're saying Jesus, Yeshua, Lesu , Yesu, Jezus, or whatever language you call His name by. God also knows whom you refer to if you say, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

This back and forth will just confuse some people, so I hope they take the time to continue reading so they can have peace in their lives and realize all this nonsense is just legalism and not scriptural. You get saved through Christ and Christ ALONE! ANYTHING added to this is called "Legalism"

Please read ALL scripture before you try and explain water baptism. One cannot just take bits and pieces of scripture and form a theological idea without taking the scriptures in their entirety. Unfortunately, this happens a lot.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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Total misrepresentation of others.

It's unfortunately just more of the JaumeJ "inquisition" on Paul's Scriptures and others under under grace.

Then of course his own horn is tooted (again) about how he obeys the law and how others do not; Luke 18:9-14.



It's interesting that according to JaumeJ nearly all churches are wrong, nearly all others are wrong, but he is not wrong. If you go against his errors he says you're on an "inquisition." LOL! Wow...

In obedience to Yeshua, I bless you in the name of Jesus Christ, and may you come to tolerate others as they have been you.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
14,048
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We are only saved by being graced by the mercy of God through Jesus Christ.

I have alays said this bugt, it seems I am stupid, seeing most do not listw, or rathwer, learn
directly from Jesus Christ when He speaks, why should anyone pay atention to me.

God bless all in Jesus Christ, and all who think they are inJesus Christ to hear Him only.
 
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Thanks for this. I will do research on this and if it checks out, wow, what a shock

Btw: Do you believe Jesus was God?
Trinity? Sorry if you already answered this
Hope the following list helps in furthering your study:

Britannica Encyclopedia, 11th Edition, Volume 3, page 365 – Baptism was changed from the name of Jesus to words Father, Son & Holy Ghost in 2nd Century.

Canney Encyclopedia of Religion, page 53 – The early church baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus until the second century.

Hastings Encyclopedia of Religion, Volume 2 – Christian baptism was administered using the words, "in the name of Jesus." page 377. Baptism was always in the name of Jesus until time of Justin Martyr, page 389.

Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume 2, page 263 – Here the authors acknowledged that the baptismal formula was changed by their church.

Schaff – Herzog Religious Encyclopedia, Volume 1, page 435 – The New Testament knows only the baptism in the name of Jesus.

Hastings Dictionary of Bible, page 88 – It must be acknowledged that the three fold name of Matthew 28:19 does not appear to have been used by the primitive church, but rather in the name of Jesus, Jesus Christ or Lord Jesus.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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First of all let me say that I developed my opinion of a valid baptism strictly by what is found in the Word of God. Because there is power in the name of Jesus and there is not one record of a water baptism being performed using the titles of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, I can only conclude that a valid baptism is one done in the name of Jesus. History itself records that from the Day of Pentecost until 325 a.d. all water baptisms were done in the singular name of Jesus. Since 325 a.d. when "clergy" decided they knew better and demanded even those that were baptized in Jesus name to be rebaptized using their new formula many churches began to follow suit. I personally was baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost prior to seeing bible evidence that contradicted its form. After seeing the discrepancy I was baptized in Jesus name because I had a desire to fulfill what was clearly in the Word.
All are told to earnestly seek out what the apostles taught of the common salvation. And, to be weary of the traditions of men. The new form of baptizing began in 325 a.d was the beginning of a man made tradition.
It is not my position to try and cause strife. It is my desire to help and be helped by others to further my walk with the Lord.
May God Bless You.
God does not have a name as us needed to tell each other apart.He has no one or form to compare himself to. All of the names of God speak of His immutable attributes

The apostles had nothing to do with the teaching of Christ not seen, he alone is the anointing Holy Spirit of God. He dwells in these earthen bodies of death of every born again believer as that power in us but we would never would assume it could be of us as if we venerated one another ..(Blasphemy)

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

and not of us.(Church)

Apostles were simply sent with His word..... The thoughts did not originate from their own fleshly minds . Therefore giving meaning to the word "apostle" sent one. and not authoritative one, or one with power.... venerable ones. Worshipping the things of the flesh as if we wrestled against it and not against the unseen matters of faith .

The kingdom of God does not come by observation. We walk by faith the unseen eternal. Its easy to see that you are using the things of men seen (water) the temporal that are used in parables to reveal the things of God not seen (Spirit) the eternal.

The unbelieving Jews (no faith) performed that sort of oral tradition of their fathers turning things upside down Just as the Catholic fathers ..In the end of the matter taking way the understanding of faith (Christ's). You could say by bringing form as a rudiment of this corrupted world into the Holy Place un-seen place. Called the abomination of desecration standing or substance appearing in the holy Place of His unseen glory.

I would think Christians would understand or walk by faith...... the eternal not seen, and not by sight after the temporal as that seen

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

There is no power or authority in lifeless spiritless water(h20) seen .But there is power in the name as to the authority of the matter which represent our invisible God. Father, Son and Holy Ghost represent the unseen eternal power .If we would turn the things we use to represent His un seen glory as if they were. Then I think things could be getting turned around .

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.2 Corinthians 4:18

Water of all metaphors designed by the word of God used in parables symbolizes the unseen Spirit . Get wet... now you see it, now you do not.

John 6 seem to provide witness .Many disciples who refused to walk by faith the unseen eternal where offended with the Son of man, Jesus.He in effect said; "now you see me, now you do not" as a way or returning back to the holy unseen eternal place.

What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth "nothing:" the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.John 6:6 -66

What we are not what we will be. What the eyes see profits for nothing. Peter found out when he blasphemed the Son of man, Jesus,

 
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God does not have a name as us needed to tell each other apart.He has no one or form to compare himself to. All of the names of God speak of His immutable attributes

The apostles had nothing to do with the teaching of Christ not seen, he alone is the anointing Holy Spirit of God. He dwells in these earthen bodies of death of every born again believer as that power in us but we would never would assume it could be of us as if we venerated one another ..(Blasphemy)

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

and not of us.(Church)

Apostles were simply sent with His word..... The thoughts did not originate from their own fleshly minds . Therefore giving meaning to the word "apostle" sent one. and not authoritative one, or one with power.... venerable ones. Worshipping the things of the flesh as if we wrestled against it and not against the unseen matters of faith .

The kingdom of God does not come by observation. We walk by faith the unseen eternal. Its easy to see that you are using the things of men seen (water) the temporal that are used in parables to reveal the things of God not seen (Spirit) the eternal.

The unbelieving Jews (no faith) performed that sort of oral tradition of their fathers turning things upside down Just as the Catholic fathers ..In the end of the matter taking way the understanding of faith (Christ's). You could say by bringing form as a rudiment of this corrupted world into the Holy Place un-seen place. Called the abomination of desecration standing or substance appearing in the holy Place of His unseen glory.

I would think Christians would understand or walk by faith...... the eternal not seen, and not by sight after the temporal as that seen

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

There is no power or authority in lifeless spiritless water(h20) seen .But there is power in the name as to the authority of the matter which represent our invisible God. Father, Son and Holy Ghost represent the unseen eternal power .If we would turn the things we use to represent His un seen glory as if they were. Then I think things could be getting turned around .

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.2 Corinthians 4:18

Water of all metaphors designed by the word of God used in parables symbolizes the unseen Spirit . Get wet... now you see it, now you do not.

John 6 seem to provide witness .Many disciples who refused to walk by faith the unseen eternal where offended with the Son of man, Jesus.He in effect said; "now you see me, now you do not" as a way or returning back to the holy unseen eternal place.

What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth "nothing:" the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.John 6:6 -66

What we are not what we will be. What the eyes see profits for nothing. Peter found out when he blasphemed the Son of man, Jesus,
I totally agree that Jesus is the ultimate authority in all things. Peter certainly was just a mortal man. However, beings Peter stated first that Jesus was the Messiah, and Jesus knew it was revealed to him by God, Peter was in a sense honored with the "keys" (man's responsibility/obligation to the new covenant) gospel and presented them to the people on the Day of Pentecost. Thereafter, we see in the Word that the other apostles, too, carried on presenting the same instructions. So yes, Peter is no different in other respects than anyone else that shares the gospel truth. Again, he was just given the honor of sharing the New Testament message.

As far as water is concerned, I too agree with you. Water is just water. However, God chose to use this method. The Word expresses that the rebirth takes place through obedience to the command. Upon seeing the command, one obeys the command. What happens in the spiritual realm when the command is followed is not something that concerns me. God knows. Our job is to just step out in faith and do what is commanded of us.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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I totally agree that Jesus is the ultimate authority in all things. Peter certainly was just a mortal man. However, beings Peter stated first that Jesus was the Messiah, and Jesus knew it was revealed to him by God, Peter was in a sense honored with the "keys" (man's responsibility/obligation to the new covenant) gospel and presented them to the people on the Day of Pentecost. Thereafter, we see in the Word that the other apostles, too, carried on presenting the same instructions. So yes, Peter is no different in other respects than anyone else that shares the gospel truth. Again, he was just given the honor of sharing the New Testament message.
Peter stating something first does not mean he is the first person to hear God by faith (the unseen) Just the first one in this case. It was not a lets start chain of command by having a venerate contest .

That first mention ideology is a innovation as a oral tradition of men. All men are honored with the keys that first loosens the will of God in heaven, and then binds it on earth as our daily bread .

The gospel is the key that the gates of hell could never prevail against. Not Peter who blasphemed the Son of man right after he was given the faith from God to believe Jesus was the Christ..not being revealed by the flesh of men .not being revealed by the flesh of men

Jesus forgave Peter of his blasphemy . Because Peter does not get honor for first in that case then neither for the first place . First to mention is a oral tradition of the catholic fathers

Abel believed God and it was reckoned or imputed to Him as righteousness not of his own self . All believer that have the privilege to work out the salvation Christ began in us..... knowing it is Christ who works in us to both will and do His good pleasure . His promise he will finish it till the end so we can endure with Him.(Philippians 1:6)

As far as water is concerned, I too agree with you. Water is just water. However, God chose to use this method. The Word expresses that the rebirth takes place through obedience to the command. Upon seeing the command, one obeys the command. What happens in the spiritual realm when the command is followed is not something that concerns me. God knows. Our job is to just step out in faith and do what is commanded of us.
To baptize with the Holy unseen Spirt into a attribute of God (savior) is the authority of God it has nothing at all to do with H20 the thing seen the temporal. I believe we are to concern ourselves with spiritual unseen matters.

I would agree and offer all of the "doctrines of God" use water h20 to represent the unseen Holy Spirit as His seal of approval . You could say the water of the word needed for the growth of the incorruptible seed of the word by which all are born again .

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

I would offer the incorruptible seed of the word along with the incorruptible water of the word used to represent the one Spirit of it. No water no growth , No seed no need for water as the doctrine

The same water as the doctrines of God our Husband Christ washes his bride the church with

Deuteronomy 32;1-4 King James Version (KJV) Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: Because I will publish the name of the Lord: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Christ is our Rock in whom the many lively stones that make up the spiritual house of God the church are hewn from .Peter's name reflects one of the many. In that way we are all Peters and in the same way all Marys as mothers (the new Jerusalem the bride of Christ typified the mother of us all) Interesting as to how he does use words in that way.

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
 
Nov 27, 2018
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Many new bible dictionaries exclude historical documentation regarding the original form of water baptism used throughout history.

For those wishing to locate and study old bible dictionary editions on any topic the following is link that will steer you to a great resource:

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Catholic_Encyclopedia,_volume_2.djvu/309

The above website includes scanned images of the original bible encyclopedia and regular text that can be copied to share with others.

Hope this helpful.
 
Nov 27, 2018
98
26
18
For those wishing to locate and study old bible dictionary editions on any topic the following is link that will steer you to a great resource:

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Catholic_Encyclopedia,_volume_2.djvu/309

The above website includes scanned images of the original bible encyclopedia and regular text that can be copied to share with others.

Hope this helpful.

In my initial post #118 I neglected to mention the web site link provided https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Catholic_Encyclopedia,_volume_2.djvu/309 provides verification of the change of the water baptism formula changed from "in the name of Jesus Christ" to "the Father, Son and Holy Ghost" in 325 a.d.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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There are two separate things being spoken of here by Jesus: God revealing to Peter that Jesus is the Messiah. And the second is the topic of the giving of keys to the kingdom.
I thought you might be interested in what bible commentaries outline about the keys issue:
[The keys of the kingdom] By the kingdom of heaven, we may consider the true church, that house of God, to be meant; and by the keys, the power of admitting into that house, or of preventing any improper person from coming in. In other words, the doctrine of salvation, and the full declaration of the way in which God will save sinners; and who they are that shall be finally excluded from heaven; and on what account. When the Jews made a man a doctor of the law, they put into his hand the key of the closet in the temple where the sacred books were kept, and also tablets to write upon; signifying, by this, that they gave him authority to teach, and to explain the Scriptures to the people.-Martin. This prophetic declaration of our Lord was literally fulfilled to Peter, as he was made the first instrument of opening, i.e. preaching the doctrines of the kingdom of heaven to the Jews, Acts 2:41; and to the Gentiles, Acts 10:44-47; 11:1; 15:7... from Adam Clarke's Commentary, Electronic Database
I would offer it is all "one thing" the key is the revelation of God given to as amany that know Christ. By it men can hear God.

We walk by faith the eternal Holy Place not seen and not after the temporal seen. The idea of separating that which God calls "one" can turn things up side down and take away the understanding of Him not seen. We walk by the eternal not seen not by that in which the eyes see as if the kingdom of Christ did come by observation .We are not what we will be.

The little word it in verses 17 and 18 is the living abiding word of God that works in the believer just as it used in, as it is written. It representing the finger prints of the unseen author. Three time Jesus said in defense to His unseen father in heaven in Mathew 4 , as it is written, and again as it is written .Three strikes the devil was out

Peter is not a part of the use of either it used in that portion.(17-18)

Note...
.( purple in parenthesis) my offering.

And Jesus answering said to him, `Happy art thou, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it (God's living abiding word is the revealer, not Peter's flesh and blood ) to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens.And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it; (God's living abiding word is the revealer , not Peter's flesh and blood ) and I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.'Mathew 16:17 -19

A picture of our daily bread His will be done on earth as it is loosed from heaven. Some have that loosening from Rome as the it that the gates of hell could never prevail against.

If Peter even had a little credit for God working in Peter as he does with all to both will and do His good pleasure . Then he lost it immediately after when he blasphemed the Son of man, Jesus. Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy against the Son of man, Jesus.
Today that would not be possible, blaspheming against the unseen Holy Spirit will not be forgiven .Peter stands in the same place as any child of God moved by the Holy Spirit who does make our hearts soft..

God simply will not share his unseen glory with the things of men seen.

And having taken him aside, Peter began to rebuke him, saying, `Be kind to thyself, sir; this shall not be to thee;' and he having turned, said to Peter, `Get thee behind me, adversary! thou art a stumbling-block to me, for thou dost not mind the things of God, but the things of men.'Mathew 16:22-23