born gay

RickShafer · Mar 20, 2013

No one is born gay.
First off, no babies have sexual orientation except the sex they were given.
Secondly, homosexuality is an acquired taste.
Are there effeminate men? Yes.
Are there masculine women? Yes.
Does that mean ALL effeminate men are gay? No.
Does that mean ALL masculine women are lesbian? No.
I've seen plenty of effeminate men with masculine women.
I've seen a multitude of masculine women with effeminate men.
I've also seen masculine women with masculine men.
And I've seen effeminate women with effeminate men.
And on, and on, and on .............
I have found that no sex is content within itself.
Simply said - - - - It takes the other to complete it.
This is what I have found.
I think this is the way God made it.

Meshullam · Mar 20, 2013

A just man doesn't need to learn right-thinking, but then there isn't really such thing as a wholly just man.

I'm not totally just. I'm not perfect. And I'm not full of knowledge and insight.

But I do understand that compassion is the greatest thing that a person can spend time trying to learn and apply.

Does God condemn forgiveness? Or love? Or patience? Or humility? Or consideration? Or charity?

Does God condemn soft spoken words? Or gentleness?

Does God condemn a person for 'eating' in the company of 'sinners'?

I have respect for my God, though I may not always be a perfect son.

BUt I know this, even when I do fail, and even when I do sin, God still loves me very much.

Sin itself, the nature of it, the mind of man, and the condition of it, is the problem, not the person who is accursed in it.

The solution is to learn the truth. The reasons why sin does not work. Why compassion and love do better for a person than a hard heart and condemnation.

To condemn another is to condemn myself. Because when I call a person who is homosexual harshly, or speak to them irreverently I call them lesser, I condemn in my mind for a sin they commit or are tempted to commit, when I myself sometimes am the same, albeit for a different sin.

It's completely illogical.

Love the person to quell the sin. Give them a reason, not a rule.

God set us outside his garden, not so that we could scream to get back in, but so that we could learn why we're outside.

And we all hit each other metaphorically, thinking our dad would be proud of us for bashing the sinner, yet we're still outside the garden alongside them, for the same reason they are!

Condemnation is really silly when I think of it this way.

Meshullam · Mar 20, 2013

RickShafer said:

No one is born gay.
First off, no babies have sexual orientation except the sex they were given.
Secondly, homosexuality is an acquired taste.
Are there effeminate men? Yes.
Are there masculine women? Yes.
Does that mean ALL effeminate men are gay? No.
Does that mean ALL masculine women are lesbian? No.
I've seen plenty of effeminate men with masculine women.
I've seen a multitude of masculine women with effeminate men.
I've also seen masculine women with masculine men.
And I've seen effeminate women with effeminate men.
And on, and on, and on .............
I have found that no sex is content within itself.
Simply said - - - - It takes the other to complete it.
This is what I have found.
I think this is the way God made it.

Just the same way nobody is born sexually immoral, and nobody is born a divorcee. Nobody is born a liar, nobody is born a murderer. We all succumb to one eventually.

joshua_xaja · Mar 20, 2013

Book of Romans clearly explains that, Homosexuality is the Judgment of God for the sin we humans have done, and this Judgment has only revealed the evil of human heart, which was hidden deep in. And although, world is under this sexual immorality, it still embraces it, loves it and Justifies it.

Which further reveals how evil and opposite the world is.

after few verses, the reaction of world on this Judgment,

The root cause or sin is the exchange of glory of God with worldly things, the worshiping the creations and not of the Creator, who is Holy above all.

Homosexuals don't need condemnation, because it isn't the sin at root, but need prayers and mercy of God to set them free.

RickShafer · Mar 20, 2013

Meshullam said:

So you are agreeing no one is born gay.
Thanks for the affirmation.

Meshullam · Mar 20, 2013

RickShafer said:

Perhaps.

What I'm really saying is that nobody is 'born' anything, really.

Our minds are like sponges when we're born and we 'learn' everything or 'become' everything. We learn sin and we get to a point where we feel sexual desire.

It IS possible for a gay person to never actually be attracted to women.

Sexual attraction doesn't really occur until the early teens, and I know men who have just always been attracted to other men. Whether it's a hormone imbalance in puberty, perhaps a predisposition to estrogen release over testosterone, or whether it's an unconscious psychological preference for some reason, perhaps something in childhood, people can be 'always' attracted to the same sex, since the point that they first felt sexual attraction.

And we all 'become' sinful, or 'learn' certain ways, or sometimes we are at more of a predisposition - hormonally, mentally and physically - to sins.

For instance, a man with extremely high testosterone levels is more likely to have fits of rage and anger issues, and is more likely to commit violent crimes, particularly sexual ones.

A women with extremely high estrogen levels can be something similar.

A man who is abused as a child is psychologically more prone to see abusive behaviour in many forms, and even if they try to stamp it out in their own parenting, it's likely that they will go on to inflict SOME form of abuse on their children or spouse, albeit perhaps a much milder form.

Some people have mental conditions which may make them completely unable to cohere any form of normal thought and they, in turn, will do very out of the ordinary things.

What I'm saying is that it is very possible for someone's physiology and psychology to be holding them to a sin that perhaps, if they were more stable minded or stable bodied, they wouldn't commit.

Sexual attraction is very much to do with hormones and brain chemicals.

When we see someone we are attracted to, our hairs stand on end. Our body releases all sorts of chemicals and pheromones Even a person's smell can attract another person to them.

So it's likely a mix of physiology and psychology, more of one or the other depending on the person.

It's not simply 'you chose to be that way'.

People can say 'well you must have chosen it, otherwise you wouldn't do it'.

But that's like saying 'you must have chosen to be accursed in sin, otherwise you wouldn't have chosen it'.

Nobody chose it. But we ALL do things we shouldn't, for whatever reason. And there is always a reason.

Understand that reason, and I can see everything in different light.

TheStraightener · Mar 22, 2013

Bowman said:

Religion aside. I can't think of anything more uncomfortable than the thought of sleeping with another man. It's just not my sexual orientation. Why anyone would choose to do it is a mystery to me so I'm more inclined to believe its from birth.

I believe we have no choice in what our sexual orientation is. I don't believe the threat of prison can stop a person wanting to abuse children same way as the threat of prison won't stop me from desiring women. Sexual orientation is not something that can be rehabilitated.

Your all treating the act of having sex with another man as some great temptation that we are constantly trying to resist! It simply isn't that way at all.

I don't make a choice to enjoy the types of food I eat or the type of music I listen to. I have my likes and dislikes in all aspects of my life. None of which are conscious decisions or deliberate choices. It's what makes me 'me'.

jimmydiggs · Mar 22, 2013

Earlmayknowornot said:

God killed them, but he did not commit murder. God does not sin. When God kills a man, it is just, and right.

PS · Mar 22, 2013

terminator said:

Up until the 1800's people were hanged for stealing a sheep.

Please remember that in both cases this was law made by man.

JayHeart · Mar 22, 2013

I agree with all of this.
I definitely love the comparison that you made Carey, about drug addicts. Someone can be born into poverty... and then change and become financially wealthy... because they worked at it to change who they were. You don't hear those people interviewing on television saying... well I was born poor, so I had to stay poor.

Not to be redundant with plugging my blog on this chat site... but I'm breaking down some things I've learned when I was living an active gay lifestyle (I'm not anymore... repented, learned a lot, glory to God)
If anyone reading this thread is interested in reading some more info about how subtlety can be such a weapon in someone becoming and wanting to be gay I would love for you to read my blog and check it out.

Here's the link:
Coming Out Of The Christian Closet

And here's the description of the blog:
Coming Out of the Christian Closet:I lived for 10 years as a gay/bisexual man. I lived it, and learned a lot from it. Shortly before my 30th birthday I realized that I was making choices against God’s plan. I acknowledged my sin and have since repented of my actions. Upon coming out of this Christian closet I have gained clarity about that life and an understanding that I feel could be beneficial to men who struggle with same-sex attractions. This is a blog about men who are attracted to other men and how those relationships complicate their lives. Whether you are a Christian or not, I hope that these stories will be relatable and valuable tools to helping you pursue a full, enriched, meaningful life. Most of all I want to encourage men who are struggling with a decision to live an active gay life to consider my stories first before loading up on shots and hitting the gay bar. I wish to help explain how choosing this life can end up trapping you more than freeing you. I believe these entries will be helpful when it comes to healthy relationships and living for long term instead of temporary. My hope is that your pain and heavy heart will be released into a world of joy, truth, and love.

Coming Out Of The Christian Closet

GOD BLESS!
If you know of anyone who may be encouraged by my stories, please feel free to forward them the link

Much Love,
JayHeart

jimmydiggs · Mar 22, 2013

PS said:

The law of God is the law of God, it comes not most principally from man.

PS · Mar 22, 2013

jimmydiggs said:

That's true, but not true for man's laws.

Meshullam · Mar 22, 2013

jimmydiggs said:

Jimmy, loads of 'laws' in the bible were made by man.

Loads of wars and killings were 'justified' by the law. But that doesn't mean they were right.

Being totally right means going above and beyond the law. when a man steals, it was probably lawful to cut his hand off. But that doesn't make it 'loving'. The loving thing to do, is ask for your possession back and forgive him even if he doesn't give you it.

RickShafer · Mar 22, 2013

Meshullam said:

Well, I agree if everything you said.
Except that - "no one is born anything".
I think there are hereditary reasons as well as environmental reasons for our prospective weaknesses.
Just as there are hereditary reasons for certain 'strengths' - (athletic, intellectual,ect.).
But I do agree with you that it is utter folly to judge another person's soul based on their outward sins.
In this we are in full agreement.
Because we do not know what they have gone through, nor how God is dealing with them, or even if He is.
This is why evangelism is so important.
And, it is not our place to judge souls anyway.
A murderer can be saved, many have. Now after having said that, it does not override the responsibility of the State to prosecute the guilty to protect the innocent.
It is a fine line, separating the sin from the sinner.
The problem is when the society no longer considers a certain sin as sin.
This is why you see a strong reaction by the saints who believe the Bible, who see the excusing of self destructive behavior as threatening to their society.

quiteFrankly · Mar 23, 2013

We are ALL born with the choice to CHOOSE. It's our most greatest feature.

PS · Mar 23, 2013

Meshullam said:

I'm glad you said that Meshullam because not only is it true but it is a reflection on the nature of the wickedness of mankind who does these things in the name of God.

When George Bush launched the invasions into Afghanistan and Iraq he claimed he was on a mission from God and people have always made God the scapegoat.

George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq' | World news | The Guardian

This means that atheists cannot say how horrible God is and it means Christians don't have to jump through hoops trying to justify the violence in the Old Testament which is evidence of man's inhumanity to man.

You cannot believe the weight that was lifted off my shoulders when I realized the reason for the wickedness in the OT is due to Satan the father of lies.

carey · Mar 23, 2013

I just want to thank everyone for their replies. I started this thread because too many times I have seen Christians refuse to minister to the gay community. How I see it is their sin is no worse than my former drug addiction, or a murderer, don't they deserve to hear the truth also? But instead I have seen judgment as if we have the authority to pick and choose who should receive the message of grace. That kind of thinking is disgusting to me. Jesus died for all of our sins not a select fewThank you and God bless

DrJake · Mar 23, 2013

The Bible is itself a stumbling block to many. Often the scriptures are only known through the ignorant interpretations of bigoted persons. A very dramatic case in point is the matter of homosexuality, which the liberalization of marriage law has brought so much to the fore.

On one side, there are the liberal apologists who maintain that that the Bible doesn't mean what it very explicitly says. And here the conservatives seem to have the moral high ground, since the Bible does say what it says, was at some pains to write it down, and most likely means it. Further, and fairly, the conservatives assert that one cannot "pick and choose" which Biblical injunctions are to be taken seriously, consulting only personal taste and social convenience.

If one counters that the compilation of the Bible was nothing but picking and choosing, editing this, emphasizing that, reinterpreting something else — that's all quite true, but once the scriptures meet the light of historical criticism, they seem to lose all their magic. They appear a farrago of history literature and religious speculation with no particular claim to our reverence. And the fact that that they have a special and central role in our civilization is nothing but an appeal to authority — the weakest of arguments. In any case, when the Bible is viewed like this, as literature, there is no particular reason left for caring what it says.

Are these our only choices? Bible as stern moral rule book or Bible as primitive experimental novel?

The Bible is an inspired document. The spirit of God does speak through it. Through it, thorough the medium of human beings, limited by their time and knowledge. Some of its ideas, like the injunction to be considerate to the blind and deaf, are so far in advance of the morality of the Bronze Age, (and so far from "givens" even today), that they make a good argument for the Bible's divine inspiration.

Some matters, like the homophobic pronouncements in Leviticus, are simply an expression of the primitive human fear and distrust of whatever is different of unusual. The unusual is always regarded with awe in archaic societies, and declared either holy or accursed — that is, boundaries are put around it. Now human beings have always recognized the numinous, dangerous and transformative quality of sex, and this is why marriage is considered a sacrament. An anxiety at the power of sex is the underlying source for the vehemence of the Biblical strictures regarding sexual behavior. Sociological and historical factors gave the thinking its luckless cast.

So the famous prohibitions of homosexuality in Leviticus have meaning for us today primarily as a historical document of certain archaic attitudes towards sex, which were characteristic of the Middle East more than two thousand years ago. One would be hard put to explain these passages in a way that would put them into a more compelling or appealing light.

This is the point where liberal apologists, if they really know their Bible, trot out the love of David and Jonathan, and perhaps the androgynous description of the original human in Genesis chapter one ("male and female created he them.")

Well, that's really less than candid. The Bible is, by our standards, despite a few appealing inconsistencies, a document with small but real homophobic content. It was composed over a thousand year period beginning in twelve hundred BC. Need one point out that there are many things in it that are hopelessly out of date? that the historical context requires as much translation as the language for it to be comprehensible to us?

Those who take the Bible literally, to enjoin moral attitudes that mainly express primitive fear of sex — can't be said to understand the Bronze Age context but rather to recreate it. As if the techniques of Method Acting were applied to Biblical history. The results are as quaint, at best.

And much the same can be said of those who despise the Bible because it doesn't match the moral views of Boston in 2013. The live in a world with no sense of the past, just as the fundamentalists live in one without a present.

"Picking and choosing" among the Bible's verses, on the basis of personal taste, is not intellectually respectable. Understanding the language, context and motivation of every line, distinguishing between what is limited by time and place and what stands out above the stream of history and has transcendent meaning, is demanding.

Not all of theology is easy. But this much should be:

The Bible has many wonderful things to offer. Dating tips are not among them.

carey · Mar 23, 2013

I could only read the first couple lines
ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME!!!
The Bible is the living breathing word of God!

Ariel82 · Mar 23, 2013

I read the whole post and still had the same reaction Carey...

it sounds like a liberal trying to convince himself he really is a moderate...

yet he still proposes that "the Bible doesn't mean what it very explicitly says" but adds that you can disregard some parts due to "historical" influences.

at least he recognizes that conservatives have the "moral high ground"

Jesus was MEANT to be a stumbling block. The Bible is a stumbling block to many because they would rather justify their own sins than forsake them.

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