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Many times I have looked up verses from my KJV in Greek or Hebrew on Bible Hub. When I then find a specific word on-line and it's accurate meaning, then I can understand what God is saying in His Word much better. There ARE significant errors in the KJV, I always use it but it is not without errors in the translation.
I hope I have helped🙂
I hope I have helped🙂
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what sin offering is made 'in the process of time' ?
are we suggesting this is Yom Kippur that Cain & Abel are observing?
they didn't have the law. the law came over 2,000 years later. whatever they are doing, the information we have to explain it comes from Genesis 3, which they may be commemorating, and Hebrews informing us that Abel's comparative excellency has something to do with faith.
there are two significant facts given to us that differentiate their gifts: that Abel brought 'of the firstlings' a lamb, and Cain brought produce. it isn't said that Cain brought firstfruits, and Abel's offering involved spilling the blood of the creature - which neither of them were eating any animals at this point - and Cain's offering did not have to do with blood.
why are they making an offering in the process of time, what is the purpose of the offering, and why does the Bible point out that they bring different offerings?
are we suggesting this is Yom Kippur that Cain & Abel are observing?
they didn't have the law. the law came over 2,000 years later. whatever they are doing, the information we have to explain it comes from Genesis 3, which they may be commemorating, and Hebrews informing us that Abel's comparative excellency has something to do with faith.
there are two significant facts given to us that differentiate their gifts: that Abel brought 'of the firstlings' a lamb, and Cain brought produce. it isn't said that Cain brought firstfruits, and Abel's offering involved spilling the blood of the creature - which neither of them were eating any animals at this point - and Cain's offering did not have to do with blood.
why are they making an offering in the process of time, what is the purpose of the offering, and why does the Bible point out that they bring different offerings?
.
● Gen 4:2b . . Abel became a keeper of sheep, and Cain became a tiller of
the soil.
Both men worked at honorable professions and their skills were essential to
the Adams' survival. Humans at this time were vegetarians so Cain farmed
and raised the family's food; while Abel kept them clothed and shod by
tending flocks for leather; and possibly fleece too.
● Gen 4:3-4a . . In the course of time, Cain brought an offering to The Lord
from the fruit of the soil; and Abel, for his part, brought the choicest of the
firstlings of his flock.
There's no indication in this scene suggesting that the items they brought
were sacrifices for sin. The Hebrew word for "offering" is from minchah (min
khaw') and means: to apportion, i.e. bestow; a donation; euphemistically,
tribute; specifically a sacrificial offering (usually bloodless and voluntary).
Ancient rabbis understood the brothers' offerings to be a "first fruits" kind of
oblation.
T. And it was at the end of days, on the fourteenth of Nisan, that Kain
brought of the produce of the earth, the seed of cotton (or line), an oblation
of first things before the Lord; and Habel brought of the firstlings of the
flock. (Targum Jonathan)
Seeing as how Cain was a farmer, then in his case, an amount of produce
was the appropriate first fruits offering, and seeing as how Abel was an
animal husbandman, then in his case a head of livestock was the appropriate
first fruits offering.
This incident is not said to be the very first time they brought gifts to God.
The brothers (and very likely their parents too), probably had been bringing
gifts for many years; ever since they were of age. And up to this point,
apparently both men were doing everything right and God was just as much
pleased with Cain and his gifts as He was with Abel and his gifts; but this
time there was a fly in the ointment.
● Gen 4:7 . . If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?
What's often overlooked is that God not only rejected Cain's offering, but He
also rejected Cain. In other words; the quality of one's worship is trumped
by the quality of one's life; viz: Cain's offering was unacceptable because
Cain's conduct unacceptable.
That can be readily seen played out in the first chapter of Isaiah where
Yhvh's people are depicted practicing their God-given worship to perfection.
They were attending Temple on a timely basis, praying up a storm, offering
all the correct sacrifices and offerings, observing the Sabbath, and all the
holy days of obligation. But God soundly rejected all of that because their
conduct was unbecoming. That principle is still on the books.
● 1John 1:5-6 . . This then is the message which we have heard of him, and
declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we
say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do
not the truth.
That being the case; I'd have to say that there are a number of Christians
attending church every Sunday morning who really ought to stay home and
not come back until they clean up the things in their lives that they know
very well are rubbing God the wrong way.
FAQ: In what way might Cain's piety have been lacking?
A: Well, my first guess would be bad blood between him and his younger sibling.
● Matt 5:23-24 . .Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there
remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift
there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother,
and then come and offer your gift.
_
● Gen 4:2b . . Abel became a keeper of sheep, and Cain became a tiller of
the soil.
Both men worked at honorable professions and their skills were essential to
the Adams' survival. Humans at this time were vegetarians so Cain farmed
and raised the family's food; while Abel kept them clothed and shod by
tending flocks for leather; and possibly fleece too.
● Gen 4:3-4a . . In the course of time, Cain brought an offering to The Lord
from the fruit of the soil; and Abel, for his part, brought the choicest of the
firstlings of his flock.
There's no indication in this scene suggesting that the items they brought
were sacrifices for sin. The Hebrew word for "offering" is from minchah (min
khaw') and means: to apportion, i.e. bestow; a donation; euphemistically,
tribute; specifically a sacrificial offering (usually bloodless and voluntary).
Ancient rabbis understood the brothers' offerings to be a "first fruits" kind of
oblation.
T. And it was at the end of days, on the fourteenth of Nisan, that Kain
brought of the produce of the earth, the seed of cotton (or line), an oblation
of first things before the Lord; and Habel brought of the firstlings of the
flock. (Targum Jonathan)
Seeing as how Cain was a farmer, then in his case, an amount of produce
was the appropriate first fruits offering, and seeing as how Abel was an
animal husbandman, then in his case a head of livestock was the appropriate
first fruits offering.
This incident is not said to be the very first time they brought gifts to God.
The brothers (and very likely their parents too), probably had been bringing
gifts for many years; ever since they were of age. And up to this point,
apparently both men were doing everything right and God was just as much
pleased with Cain and his gifts as He was with Abel and his gifts; but this
time there was a fly in the ointment.
● Gen 4:7 . . If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?
What's often overlooked is that God not only rejected Cain's offering, but He
also rejected Cain. In other words; the quality of one's worship is trumped
by the quality of one's life; viz: Cain's offering was unacceptable because
Cain's conduct unacceptable.
That can be readily seen played out in the first chapter of Isaiah where
Yhvh's people are depicted practicing their God-given worship to perfection.
They were attending Temple on a timely basis, praying up a storm, offering
all the correct sacrifices and offerings, observing the Sabbath, and all the
holy days of obligation. But God soundly rejected all of that because their
conduct was unbecoming. That principle is still on the books.
● 1John 1:5-6 . . This then is the message which we have heard of him, and
declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we
say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do
not the truth.
That being the case; I'd have to say that there are a number of Christians
attending church every Sunday morning who really ought to stay home and
not come back until they clean up the things in their lives that they know
very well are rubbing God the wrong way.
FAQ: In what way might Cain's piety have been lacking?
A: Well, my first guess would be bad blood between him and his younger sibling.
● Matt 5:23-24 . .Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there
remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift
there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother,
and then come and offer your gift.
_
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Much insight offered in your post. Thank you! Much to consider, and had not even thought about their ages, or how long they had been bringing offerings to God. Had been simply going by what was written, without even considering.
Really liked 'but this time there was a fly in the ointment'.
Thank you again!
Really liked 'but this time there was a fly in the ointment'.
Thank you again!
I see that from another perspective which could add.
To begin with I would offer Cain is not a believer. What he offered as first fruits proved to be. . . he had no faith by which he could please God .While it is clear the Holy Spirit worked in Abel to both will and do his good pleasure being yoked with him.
Cain could of came up with the idea of offering ones work to the god of by his own fleshly mind (self serving). her is shown that he had no faith coming from the mind of our Faithful Creator . As in many cases its all about the exclusive faith that it takes to believe in a God, not seen.
Cain remained unconverted as a restless wanderer (no rest from hearing God) . The mark of unconverted mankind.
And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering: Genesis 4
My first guess would be Cain was moved by the god of this world, the spirit of lies as the murder from the beginning shown commiting his first literal murder and cover up . Plowed him under his first fruits. showing no value in the unseen things of God.
Abel as a result, the first recorded martyr as a member of the bride of Christ. His witnes still cries out in hope of the last day .
.In the end of the matter. No mutual faith of Christ between Cain and his Abel . Fleshly brothers yes, spiritual. . . no.
To begin with I would offer Cain is not a believer. What he offered as first fruits proved to be. . . he had no faith by which he could please God .While it is clear the Holy Spirit worked in Abel to both will and do his good pleasure being yoked with him.
Cain could of came up with the idea of offering ones work to the god of by his own fleshly mind (self serving). her is shown that he had no faith coming from the mind of our Faithful Creator . As in many cases its all about the exclusive faith that it takes to believe in a God, not seen.
Cain remained unconverted as a restless wanderer (no rest from hearing God) . The mark of unconverted mankind.
And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering: Genesis 4
My first guess would be Cain was moved by the god of this world, the spirit of lies as the murder from the beginning shown commiting his first literal murder and cover up . Plowed him under his first fruits. showing no value in the unseen things of God.
Abel as a result, the first recorded martyr as a member of the bride of Christ. His witnes still cries out in hope of the last day .
.In the end of the matter. No mutual faith of Christ between Cain and his Abel . Fleshly brothers yes, spiritual. . . no.
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I do not believe the initial offerings recorded in Gen 4:3-4 were sin offerings.
Although not recorded, there must have been some Word of God taught concerning an offering which was to be made 'in the process of time'.
I believe this because Abel brought his offering "through faith" (Heb 11:4). If no Word of God had been given, Abel would not have brought his offering through faith (faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God - Rom 10:17).
Cain must have heard the same Word of God. However, his offering was not made "through faith". Otherwise, God would have had respect to Cain's offering.
I believe Gen 4:7 relates to sin offering ...
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
The word "sin" in Gen 4:7 is the Hebrew word chatta'ath and chatta'ath is translated as both "sin" and "sin offering" (as it is in Ex 29:14, 29:36, 30:10; Lev 4:3, 4:8, 4:21 ... and many more places).
I believe "sin offering" is the correct interpretation of the word chatta'ath as used in Gen 4:7.
When Cain brought his offering of the fruit of the ground, he did not bring the offering in faith and that was his error which was addressed in Gen 4:7. Cain could have brought a sin offering to the Lord to atone for his error in the initial offering of Gen 4:3. However, Cain did not atone for his error, his heart became bitter, and he ended up killing his righteous brother.
Although not recorded, there must have been some Word of God taught concerning an offering which was to be made 'in the process of time'.
I believe this because Abel brought his offering "through faith" (Heb 11:4). If no Word of God had been given, Abel would not have brought his offering through faith (faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God - Rom 10:17).
Cain must have heard the same Word of God. However, his offering was not made "through faith". Otherwise, God would have had respect to Cain's offering.
I believe Gen 4:7 relates to sin offering ...
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
The word "sin" in Gen 4:7 is the Hebrew word chatta'ath and chatta'ath is translated as both "sin" and "sin offering" (as it is in Ex 29:14, 29:36, 30:10; Lev 4:3, 4:8, 4:21 ... and many more places).
I believe "sin offering" is the correct interpretation of the word chatta'ath as used in Gen 4:7.
When Cain brought his offering of the fruit of the ground, he did not bring the offering in faith and that was his error which was addressed in Gen 4:7. Cain could have brought a sin offering to the Lord to atone for his error in the initial offering of Gen 4:3. However, Cain did not atone for his error, his heart became bitter, and he ended up killing his righteous brother.
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When Cain brought his offering of the fruit of the ground, he did not bring the offering in faith and that was his error which was addressed in Gen 4:7. Cain could have brought a sin offering to the Lord to atone for his error in the initial offering of Gen 4:3. However, Cain did not atone for his error, his heart became bitter, and he ended up killing his righteous brother.
It was by or "out of" faith that Abel offered a sacrifice. Abel's faith was evidenced by obedience to God's requirement for sacrifice by which he obtained witness that he was righteous (Hebrews 11:4). Cain, who was of the evil one, demonstrated an evil heart by evil deeds, while Abel demonstrated a righteous heart by his righteous deeds (1 John 3:12); and that Abel offered his sacrifice by or "out of" faith and Cain did not. Cain's sacrifice was evidence of his lack of faith. Abel's offering was a demonstration of his faith in regards to sacrifice, which was not demonstrated by Cain's offering.
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Amen!
It was by or out of "Christ's faith" working in Abel that moved Abel to offered a sacrifice. Hearing God he believed as it worked in Abel's new born again heart to both will and perform the good pleasure of God. Called a imputed righteousness .The righteousness of the gospel .
The power to believe from faith the unseen, to the same unseen eternal .
We should beleive as he gives us his faith to make it possible without murmuring. Like for instance. . what about the other guy, Cain who because of the imaginations of his own heart worked to gain his own salvation bringing his own personal idea. . did it profit that he tried to offer to a god (self) ? Abel worked out the working of God .Cain worked to gain as self edification
Philippians 2:11-14 King James Version (KJV) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
Cain had "no faith" as a vey froward natation walking after the things the eyes see the temporal as in the pagan tradition. . kill the misperceived competition. Out of sight out of mind. We have the mind of Christ giving us the unseen understanding of the father.
Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
It was by or out of "Christ's faith" working in Abel that moved Abel to offered a sacrifice. Hearing God he believed as it worked in Abel's new born again heart to both will and perform the good pleasure of God. Called a imputed righteousness .The righteousness of the gospel .
The power to believe from faith the unseen, to the same unseen eternal .
We should beleive as he gives us his faith to make it possible without murmuring. Like for instance. . what about the other guy, Cain who because of the imaginations of his own heart worked to gain his own salvation bringing his own personal idea. . did it profit that he tried to offer to a god (self) ? Abel worked out the working of God .Cain worked to gain as self edification
Philippians 2:11-14 King James Version (KJV) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
Cain had "no faith" as a vey froward natation walking after the things the eyes see the temporal as in the pagan tradition. . kill the misperceived competition. Out of sight out of mind. We have the mind of Christ giving us the unseen understanding of the father.
Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
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S
Why did God not have respect unto Cain and to his offering? Required blood. Probably since the first animals killed to cover Adam and Eve with skins they understood that a blood sacrifice of animals were to be made to cover their transgression until such a time as a seed of the woman would crush the serpents head. It is likely that they had a theology revealed to them from God that included the importance of the blood offering and a coming redeemer becase we see Enoch contending with the sons of men (Cains camp) and speaking about a coming of the the Lord with myriads of his saints. This Enoch having lived 365 years contemporary with Adam suggests a theology that was much more complex than we have a record of. We know that they had a theology of a coming redeemer that included judgement against those who spoke against him and it is likely that at this time of Abel and Cains offering there was enough taught to them already by Adam for Cain to know it required blood. But this is difficult to prove.
What sin was at the door, that Cain did not do well? Probably Anger. The context seems to connect that of being wroth with the sin that lies at the door. This also seems to continue to be the root cause of many sins throughout the history of mankind. It also reminds of us of how we are told to resist the devil and overcome temptation by submitting to God.
What did God mean when He said "and unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him"? You can overcome temptation and become strong in areas that you use to struggle with if you are willing to face these battles and submit to God and not yield to the flesh, in this case anger, but fill in the blank of lusts of the flesh. Soon you will not even feel any enticement in that area but will master it, your first reaction will not be anger as it used to be. You will have mastered it.
What sin was at the door, that Cain did not do well? Probably Anger. The context seems to connect that of being wroth with the sin that lies at the door. This also seems to continue to be the root cause of many sins throughout the history of mankind. It also reminds of us of how we are told to resist the devil and overcome temptation by submitting to God.
What did God mean when He said "and unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him"? You can overcome temptation and become strong in areas that you use to struggle with if you are willing to face these battles and submit to God and not yield to the flesh, in this case anger, but fill in the blank of lusts of the flesh. Soon you will not even feel any enticement in that area but will master it, your first reaction will not be anger as it used to be. You will have mastered it.
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it says they did this "in the course of time"
though they were not under the law, the law informs us about precepts. sin offerings in the law were not made at appointed times except Yom Kippur, as far as i can recall? ((do point out to me exceptions if you know of any)). they were made with the confession of the sin - as at Yom Kippur the high priest lays the sin of the people on one of the goats. if they are replicating God making the garments for their parents, that too, was done at the time of their confession and judgement. i don't see any sense in Genesis 3 that God needed to keep making garments for them.
if they are commemorating the giving of the garments to Adam & Woman/Eve, then what they are doing isn't atoning for their own sin. it is more like Passover, a remembrance. it is significant that Abel sheds blood and Cain does not, but it is also significant that Abel brings firstfruits and Cain does not - Passover is in the midst of firstfruits and Yom Kippur is not, and individual offerings for transgression are when the sin is committed and confessed, not "in the course of time" ((taking that to imply a specified time)). if they are observing a remembrance, then the reason blood is involved is because blood was present in the first event, not because they are doing this to seek forgiveness for their own individual sin. God doesn't instruct Cain to make a sacrifice to atone for his own sin - but in the law, there is no sacrifice for murder. God covers him with a mark when he pleads for mercy - and the only blood spilled is Abel's.
you have cited 'the standard answers' but what explains all these things?
though they were not under the law, the law informs us about precepts. sin offerings in the law were not made at appointed times except Yom Kippur, as far as i can recall? ((do point out to me exceptions if you know of any)). they were made with the confession of the sin - as at Yom Kippur the high priest lays the sin of the people on one of the goats. if they are replicating God making the garments for their parents, that too, was done at the time of their confession and judgement. i don't see any sense in Genesis 3 that God needed to keep making garments for them.
if they are commemorating the giving of the garments to Adam & Woman/Eve, then what they are doing isn't atoning for their own sin. it is more like Passover, a remembrance. it is significant that Abel sheds blood and Cain does not, but it is also significant that Abel brings firstfruits and Cain does not - Passover is in the midst of firstfruits and Yom Kippur is not, and individual offerings for transgression are when the sin is committed and confessed, not "in the course of time" ((taking that to imply a specified time)). if they are observing a remembrance, then the reason blood is involved is because blood was present in the first event, not because they are doing this to seek forgiveness for their own individual sin. God doesn't instruct Cain to make a sacrifice to atone for his own sin - but in the law, there is no sacrifice for murder. God covers him with a mark when he pleads for mercy - and the only blood spilled is Abel's.
you have cited 'the standard answers' but what explains all these things?