Calvinism vs. Arminianism?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I am personally my own best argument against the Calvinist lie. I totally and completely with sound mind and all my mental faculties in order renounce the capricious god of Calvinism that elects people to reprobation and yet I myself know that I am saved. Knowing that, I absolutely acknowledge that the god of Calvinism would not elect someone like me that can't wait to see him thrown into the lake of fire along with the false prophet and the Antichrist.

There, is that strong enough for you Calvinists?

(Not addressed to Hevosmies) They know who they are!
Is alright dude! Is "quite natural" for a man to CONDEMN that which he doesn't understand! It's folly to him! Or worse! It's quite "the joke", isn't it? In your denying the Father's "workings" that just don't fit "the mold", of what you see a "Christ Man" to be! Nor, how He can foreknow, "one of His", in His "predestinating", or "placing", "which is what I define predestination to mean) in such ways, and circumstances, as to be ASSURED that eventually? That man/woman would come to Christ! (which is the requirement of this "particular" earth/heaven age) Without that particular man/woman, even knowing at the time, or confessing Christ and being baptized, for "other" motives. let's say, for example, in honoring ones' father and/or mother. Or? In one's wanting to be accepted at church! Irregardless of motives? The deed has been done! Beings how a "man sees what he wants to see, and disregards the rest?" You'll now go round screaming: "Now he's condoning infant baptism!" MUST be a catholic!" :unsure:

You really should be quiet concerning things you don't understand! It really exposes your ignorance, concerning the Father of Lights!
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,275
984
113
QUite a few on this forum deny the PHYSICAL, LITERAL, BODILY resurrection. I was surprised to say the least.
I would not say deny it.

Not a salvation issue but to me more of; "How can we hear Him" as he teaches us who do seek after his unseen approval . He as the one teacher, teaches what to believe .We can share how he desires to be heard.

Many do not rightly divide the distinction between the "Son of man" as that seen the temporal, and the "Son of God" the eternal not seen .It would seem forgetting we are not as new creatures what we will be when we do receive the goal of our faith our new incorruptible bodies.

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.2 Corinthians 4:18

Because many do not "mix faith" according to the prescription above "the unseen eternal" in what they do hear they miss out on the spiritual understanding, the gospel thread, woven throughout the poetic or signified language of God

When Christ said.... it as that seen profits for nothing he meant nothing as far as poring out His unseen spirit or salvation. It does not mean it did not profit as a outward demonstration of the unseen work .Just that we are not saved by the flesh of the Son of man but are saved by the spirit of holiness .the Son of God. No such thing as a flesh of holiness. God is not a man as us.

Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Remember he is the lamb of God slain from before the foundation of the world...…..Not after the one time demonstration as if we did walk by sight.

When the Son of Man left he left clear instructions keeping in mind we are under the context as to of how we can hear him in the previous chapter.....2 Corinthians 4:18.

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.2 Corinthians 5:16-17

Other reasoning factors .Like for instance blasphemy against the Son of man seen was forgivable witnessed by Peter in Mathew 16:22-23 While when Christ disappeared...………. blaspheming against the Son of God as the Holy Spirit not seen today is not forgivable.

Another declaration .If he does not leave the Holy Spirit would still shown as being restrained seeing God does not accept worship in respect to the temporal things seen .

Again no such thing as the "flesh of Holiness" .(a Catholic doctrine) The Holy place of God is unseen. God does not live in temples made of hands .He is not flesh and blood as if His kingdom did come by observing the temporal things seen.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
314
83
Calvinist challenge:

Show me a verse that says God predestinates every single thing and I will "convert" to calvinism in a heart beat.
Show me a verse that says we have no free will (despite the word being used in the bible many times, btw) and I will "convert" to calvinism in a heart beat


KJV Romans 9:18-23

18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20. Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22. What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23. And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,275
984
113
Calvinist challenge:

Show me a verse that says God predestinates every single thing and I will "convert" to calvinism in a heart beat.
Show me a verse that says we have no free will (despite the word being used in the bible many times, btw) and I will "convert" to calvinism in a heart beat
The key that the gates of hell could never prevail against is in the word many or as many. They alone will come.Because they alone can

Replacing the word some with many can easily be seen as error.

Not one more or one less. He as we are drawn gives us the power to come .No man could come if the father had not chosen them from before the foundation of the world.T here names were written in the Lamb's book of life before God said .In the beginning, God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Matthew 20:2 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
314
83
The key that the gates of hell could never prevail against is in the word many or as many. They alone will come.Because they alone can

Replacing the word some with many can easily be seen as error.

Not one more or one less. He as we are drawn gives us the power to come .No man could come if the father had not chosen them from before the foundation of the world.T here names were written in the Lamb's book of life before God said .In the beginning, God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Matthew 20:2 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
AMEN!!!
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
314
83
Is alright dude! Is "quite natural" for a man to CONDEMN that which he doesn't understand! It's folly to him! Or worse! It's quite "the joke", isn't it? In your denying the Father's "workings" that just don't fit "the mold", of what you see a "Christ Man" to be! Nor, how He can foreknow, "one of His", in His "predestinating", or "placing", "which is what I define predestination to mean) in such ways, and circumstances, as to be ASSURED that eventually? That man/woman would come to Christ! (which is the requirement of this "particular" earth/heaven age) Without that particular man/woman, even knowing at the time, or confessing Christ and being baptized, for "other" motives. let's say, for example, in honoring ones' father and/or mother. Or? In one's wanting to be accepted at church! Irregardless of motives? The deed has been done! Beings how a "man sees what he wants to see, and disregards the rest?" You'll now go round screaming: "Now he's condoning infant baptism!" MUST be a catholic!" :unsure:

You really should be quiet concerning things you don't understand! It really exposes your ignorance, concerning the Father of Lights!
good show, NayborBear
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
777
113
Show me a verse that says God predestinates every single thing and I will "convert" to calvinism in a heart beat.
"Are not two sparrows sold for an assarion? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. And even the hairs of your head are all numbered."
Mt 10:29

"And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."
Col 1:17

"To do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. "
Acts 4:28

"The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble."
Prov 16:4

"And He made from one man every nation of men, to dwell upon all the face of the earth, having determined the appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation"
Acts 17:26

"I am God, and here is none other beside me, telling beforehand the latter events before they come to pass, and they are accomplished together: and I said, all my counsel shall stand, and I will do all things that I have planned: calling a bird from the east, and from a land afar off, for the things which I have planned: I have spoken, and brought him. I have created and made him; I have brought him, and prospered his way."
Is 46:9-11, Septuagint

"His dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom [lasts] to all generations: 32 and all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he does according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and there is none who shall withstand his power, and say to him, What has thou done?"
Daniel 4:32, Septuagint

"His months are numbered by him: thou hast appointed him for a time, and he shall by no means exceed it."
Job 14:5, Septuagint

I have no intention of converting you to calvinism, though. You do not have to be a calvinist to accept predetermination of all events and God's control over everything.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
314
83
Uhm. Okay.

Well, I hope you get past that pride and can admit that indeed, in this you are wrong.

Its quite easy to prove. Im not a calvinist and I still corrected you on that, why? Because I wouldnt want to misrepresent pelagians nor calvinists intentionally.

Augustine was the forefather of calvinism YES. You know who his enemy was? Pelagius.. Soo you saying Pelagians are hardcore calvinists doesnt add up. You see?
Made my apology if you cared to read it.....for the mistake of using Pelagianism instead of PRETERISM. I was distracted and dug myself in another hole.
 
Sep 9, 2018
2,244
1,021
113
66
Illinois
Not a salvation issue but to me more of
So, Calvinists believe that I Corinthians 15:1-4 is not an essential doctrine? The death, burial and resurrection is not a salvation issue?

As you wish you slavation over salvation - you deserve your fate.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
314
83
So, Calvinists believe that I Corinthians 15:1-4 is not an essential doctrine? The death, burial and resurrection is not a salvation issue?

As you wish you slavation over salvation - you deserve your fate.
Never try to defiine what a Calvinist believes when you don't really know yourself. I was in a conservative baptist church for several years. So I KNOW what baptists believe and they are close to Calvinism but close does not count. Have to enter by the narrow gate because the broad road leads to destruction.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,074
2,171
113
KJV Romans 9:18-23

18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20. Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22. What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23. And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
I've read Romans 9. I've also cross-referenced it with jeremiah 18. Thats an interesting chapter, its actually teaching the OPPOSITE of what calvinists interpret it as.
It says that Israel is the clay, God is the potter, and it explains how that works. If they repent, God will repent of the evil He was about to bring on them, if they turn to evil, God will repent of the good He was about to bring on them.

And as for God having mercy on whom He will have mercy, this is also true.
Lets see what Jesus says:

Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,275
984
113
So, Calvinists believe that I Corinthians 15:1-4 is not an essential doctrine? The death, burial and resurrection is not a salvation issue?

As you wish you slavation over salvation - you deserve your fate.
Well of course the outward one time demonstration is a essential doctrine .How else would we know the flesh profits for nothing seeing it was a demonstration of the work of God pouring out His unseen Spirit?

Not sure what you meant as you wrote.? " As you wish you slavation over salvation - you deserve your fate." What fate?
 
Sep 9, 2018
2,244
1,021
113
66
Illinois
Never try to defiine what a Calvinist believes when you don't really know yourself. I was in a conservative baptist church for several years. So I KNOW what baptists believe and they are close to Calvinism but close does not count. Have to enter by the narrow gate because the broad road leads to destruction.
Garee said that the resurrection is not a salvation issue. Whether I "know" what Calvinist believes or not . . . is Garee rightfully quoting a Calvinist belief?
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,074
2,171
113
Never try to defiine what a Calvinist believes when you don't really know yourself. I was in a conservative baptist church for several years. So I KNOW what baptists believe and they are close to Calvinism but close does not count. Have to enter by the narrow gate because the broad road leads to destruction.
Are you suggesting if one isnt a calvinist they are not saved? Since being on the narrow gate is required for salvation according to Jesus.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,074
2,171
113
"Are not two sparrows sold for an assarion? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. And even the hairs of your head are all numbered."
Mt 10:29

"And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."
Col 1:17

"To do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. "
Acts 4:28

"The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble."
Prov 16:4

"And He made from one man every nation of men, to dwell upon all the face of the earth, having determined the appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation"
Acts 17:26

"I am God, and here is none other beside me, telling beforehand the latter events before they come to pass, and they are accomplished together: and I said, all my counsel shall stand, and I will do all things that I have planned: calling a bird from the east, and from a land afar off, for the things which I have planned: I have spoken, and brought him. I have created and made him; I have brought him, and prospered his way."
Is 46:9-11, Septuagint

"His dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom [lasts] to all generations: 32 and all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he does according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and there is none who shall withstand his power, and say to him, What has thou done?"
Daniel 4:32, Septuagint

"His months are numbered by him: thou hast appointed him for a time, and he shall by no means exceed it."
Job 14:5, Septuagint

I have no intention of converting you to calvinism, though. You do not have to be a calvinist to accept predetermination of all events and God's control over everything.
Notice that most of these verses mention specific events that God predestinated and foreknew. (like the crucifixion of Jesus etc.)

But there are some verses im gonna have to take a deeper look at, like Isaiah 46:9-11 and Prov 16:4 that seem to indicate God does predestinate everything.

Its interesting how the Bible has BOTH ideas conveyed in it. There are verses where someone prays to have their life lenghtened and God agrees to it, and prophecies from Jonah that didn't come to pass because the people repented. The prophecy was fulfilled at a later time, but NOT to that generation. Its interesting because Jonah didnt say "Repent or else." He simply proclaimed its gonna be overthrown, no mention of getting out of it through repentance, but thats how it worked out. Jeremiah 18 in action.

There are also verses on the other side like the ones you have posted, and verses that say God gives people delusion or thoughts to do something sinful.
Revelation 17:17 is a good example of this:
"For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled."

Now we all agree that giving your kingdom unto the beast is a SIN, right? Well how come God here is putting it in their hearts to fulfill his will?

I believe this is the reason why the debate between free will and predestination, open theism and determinism will continue until the Lord returns.
But hey, Debating is fun!
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
2,664
299
83
2 Cor 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

I would like to flip the question and ask you: Does the Bible say anywhere that when Jesus dies for someone, they are automatically saved? Thats not how atonement worked in the OT.
I believe that John 6:38 quotes Jesus as saying that he died for all that the Father gave him and that he would NOT LOSE any of them. That sounds like automatically saved to me.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
2,664
299
83
I can't wait to hear their answer for this one.

Here we have Carl saying that everyone that 'Jesus' died for is automatically saved no they need do nothing. My OP mentioned this and all the big C's jumped on me and said THAT IS NOT THE TEACHING OF CALVINISM. No we see one of them says the OP is true.

Liars, liars, liars . . . truly a doctrine of demons.
You decide who Christ died for and tell me who they were, but the scripture says all that he died for will live in heaven with him without the lose of even one. So then, either all mankind will be in heaven or only those he died for will be in heaven. Which is it in your mind?