Calvinism vs. Arminianism?

[NayborBear]

All you people want is for us to tell you why or what we believe so you can chuckle and shake your head at our sad simplicity in pretending to be intelligent. I have no intention of telling you what you already know - instead I deliver you unto God for judgment. I can only pray that it will be immediate. In the meantime, it would be wonderful if He overrules me and delivers you from the clutches of Satan, but he has tricked you into believing you have no choice but in reality you are exercising your free will to reject God's Word through doublespeak.

Praise God it is because I am NOT intelligent that I can trust God's Word with my simple childlike faith when I came to Him back in 1976 (using my free will) to be saved.

No one, at least not me, is condemning your conversion to Christ! It IS however, your denials of Our Father's "workings", "IN", and yea, PAST the cross of Christ (aka UNTO the Father), by means of FUTILE ATTEMPTS of entering into the sheeps pen by some other way, THEN, the sheeps gate, Which IS Christ Jesus Our Lord and Savior!

Romans 8
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Many would, and have laid claim that this verse refers to the "Gift of the Holy Spirit!" Well? It is, and it isn't! Just as Jesus is God? Jesus is not Our Father!

Daniel 7
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the ANCIENT of DAYS, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

These verses would lead one to think that Daniel was referring to the Kingdom of Jesus Christ! And, one would be correct in thinking, believing, and perpetuating this Kingdom! Not only FOR the Glory of the Son, and His Kingdom! But, for the Glory of the FATHER who SENT Him! And HIS Kingdom!

 

[carl11]

Again the calvinist trick argument here.

WHY Do you assume that when Jesus dies for someone, they are AUTOMATICALLY saved?

GIVE ME ONE VERSE THAT SAYS THAT ALL WHO CHRIST DIED FOR WILL BE SAVED.

I can show you a verse to the contrary. Here you go: (

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Fun enough, this one verse debunks calvinism, it refutes limited atonement AND irresistable grace, all in one verse. Double trouble for the Calvinists!

Now how can these false prophets deny the Lord that bought them, if the Lord didnt buy them? In the calvinist-land, these guys would either be: A) group who Christ died for, and therefore cannot deny the Lord that bought them, or B) group who Christ did not die for, so the Lord did not buy them to begin with.

CHECK MATE

You should realize that many commentaries agree on pretty much the idea that Christ did not die for the false prophets and also talks a lot about them as in Mt. 24 and Rev. 19:20 & 20:10 and also notice it is talking about swift destruction if Christ had bought these people then God would be lying when we he says bring upon themselves swift destruction. Now there is no denying that this word bought, it says what it means exactly, bought, purchased and or buy or buying. We know that Christ did buy people by paying the price deemed. But this idea of bought or buying is equivalent to the idea of the Gospel namely found in [Is. 55:1 & Rev. 13:17]. Now the false prophet what is the false prophet prophesying ? he is namely prophesying that of the gospel, the word of God. Now on the one hand they are not denying they have never been bought because they talk about God and they use Bible but the problem lies in that God has blinded them to the truth along way with those that follow just as he did with Israel. [Rom. 11:8]

This idea of those that deny that the Lord that bought them is in the idea of a preaching a false gospel and these false gospels are found all throughout the Churches and this can be seen especially at the beginning of the churches. [Gal. 1:6; Rev. 2:13, 15] It is thru the word of God that saves us, it is through the word that bought us and when we are talking about the word of God we are talking about Christ who is the word of God and never ceased to be God. [Jn. 1:1, Rom. 10:17, Col. 2:9]

This idea of them denying Lord that bought them is liken unto a false gospel in that they are not preaching or teaching faithfully and in that the sense they are denying the Lord, they are preaching a works grace gospel that will not save, they are denying the Lord that bought them. To say that this verse debunks limited atonement and irresistible grace could very well be if we take a hap hazard approach and do not fully check out everything we can concerning the issue at hand.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

This idea of them denying Lord that bought them is

Or maybe because Peter writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is saying that these lost people are denying the Lord that bought them at Calvary.

I know I sure don't want to face Peter in heaven and have to explain why I twisted his words to support something he never said.

You Calvinists are stuck on park with regards to God's Word. You have it in your brain that if Jesus died for someone they are automatically saved and there is nothing they can do for or against it. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, and probably 95% of that world rejects Him. Their refusal to come to the Cross does not lessen even one iota of the pain and suffering and time in hell that Jesus spent in order to redeem every single one of them. And this is why hell is both terrible and eternal . . . because wicked man CHOOSES to pay his own penalty: 'for the wages of sin is death' -- but much, much more of a death than any mortal human can even conceive.

And if Jean has you deceived to the point where you think you are saved when you are not . . . you are going to be right there alongside of them wondering for an eternity of eternities how you could have been so wrong.

The answer . . . PRIDE

You think that you are God's choice above all others.

"Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall" (Proverbs 16:18).

I rather believe that fall in destruction is going to be the drop into the lake of fire that every lost soul will experience at the end.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Or maybe because Peter writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is saying that these lost people are denying the Lord that bought them at Calvary.

I know I sure don't want to face Peter in heaven and have to explain why I twisted his words to support something he never said.

You Calvinists are stuck on park with regards to God's Word. You have it in your brain that if Jesus died for someone they are automatically saved and there is nothing they can do for or against it. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, and probably 95% of that world rejects Him. Their refusal to come to the Cross does not lessen even one iota of the pain and suffering and time in hell that Jesus spent in order to redeem every single one of them. And this is why hell is both terrible and eternal . . . because wicked man CHOOSES to pay his own penalty: 'for the wages of sin is death' -- but much, much more of a death than any mortal human can even conceive.

And if Jean has you deceived to the point where you think you are saved when you are not . . . you are going to be right there alongside of them wondering for an eternity of eternities how you could have been so wrong.

The answer . . . PRIDE

You think that you are God's choice above all others.

"Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall" (Proverbs 16:18).

I rather believe that fall in destruction is going to be the drop into the lake of fire that every lost soul will experience at the end.

Jesus offered himself as a sacrifice for the sins of the people that his Father gave to him. My question to you is; To whom was this sacrifice offered? Was it offered to God for God's acceptance? or, Was it offered to mankind for mankind's acceptance? Then answer me this question; Did Jesus say that all that he died for, he would not lose any, but would raise them up at the last day?

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

Jesus offered himself as a sacrifice for the sins of the people that his Father gave to him. My question to you is; To whom was this sacrifice offered? Was it offered to God for God's acceptance? or, Was it offered to mankind for mankind's acceptance? Then answer me this question; Did Jesus say that all that he died for, he would not lose any, but would raise them up at the last day?

Going with your theory - here is a guy exercising his free will to deny the Lord that bought him - or do you see it differently?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Going with your theory - here is a guy exercising his free will to deny the Lord that bought him - or do you see it differently?

I was not expecting you to answer. I thought you enjoyed debating with me. You know! Blow me out of the water.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

I was not expecting you to answer. I thought you enjoyed debating with me. You know! Blow me out of the water.

A lost guy

 

[carl11]

Or maybe because Peter writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is saying that these lost people are denying the Lord that bought them at Calvary.

I know I sure don't want to face Peter in heaven and have to explain why I twisted his words to support something he never said.

You Calvinists are stuck on park with regards to God's Word. You have it in your brain that if Jesus died for someone they are automatically saved and there is nothing they can do for or against it. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, and probably 95% of that world rejects Him. Their refusal to come to the Cross does not lessen even one iota of the pain and suffering and time in hell that Jesus spent in order to redeem every single one of them. And this is why hell is both terrible and eternal . . . because wicked man CHOOSES to pay his own penalty: 'for the wages of sin is death' -- but much, much more of a death than any mortal human can even conceive.

Why would you want to face Peter in heaven ? This sounds like a catholic belief. These words that you are saying are not Peters words, these are words from God Almighty.

I'm not quite so sure you understand reformed theology because I'm not fully aware of any that say that Christ died for those and now they are saved and now can do nothing they have a free ride. The fact is that just because Christ died for a certain individual does not mean they are saved instantly. They still have to hear the word of God sometime in their life and God has to apply his word to that individual in order to be saved.

Once again you are saying that Christ died for the sins of the whole world and that in itself is a erroneous statement, he did not die for all but for a certain all as described in 1Cor. 15:22.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

Why would you want to face Peter in heaven ? This sounds like a catholic belief. These words that you are saying are not Peters words, these are words from God Almighty.

Pete is my brother in Christ. One day I'll be strolling down the golden streets and I'll say, 'Hi Paul! Really loved Philippians!" and then I'd turn down the next block and I'll say, "Hey, Pete! Man, did you ever have a temper!"

But I won't have to feel ashamed that I didn't believe the epistle he wrote.

Nah, not Catholic at all!

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

Once again you are saying that Christ died for the sins of the whole world and that in itself is a erroneous statement, he did not die for all but for a certain all as described in 1Cor. 15:22.

Yep, that's 'xactly what I'm saying. Pay attention!

 

[fredoheaven]

Jesus offered himself as a sacrifice for the sins of the people that his Father gave to him. My question to you is; To whom was this sacrifice offered? Was it offered to God for God's acceptance? or, Was it offered to mankind for mankind's acceptance? Then answer me this question; Did Jesus say that all that he died for, he would not lose any, but would raise them up at the last day?

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Calvinists change the word 'whole' to 'elect.' Just like in John 3:16 where they do the same thing to the word 'world.'

That is the only support Calvinism has, to do what the Council of Dork tells them to do.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

My friend, then everybody ends up in heaven. God was the one who was propitiated, not man. To propitiate means to appease, satisfy, placate, satiate. If this is true for everybody whoever lived, then everybody whoever lived has had then sins atoned and God's wrath has been appeased, placated, satisfied, satiated, and on the day of judgment, there is no wrath for Him to dole out.

 

[carl11]

Yep, that's 'xactly what I'm saying. Pay attention!

Then how do you explain 1Cor. 15:22 in lieu of what you are saying.

 

[carl11]

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

So does this mean all of Israel is saved ?

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

Then how do you explain 1Cor. 15:22 in lieu of what you are saying.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" (I Corinthians 15:22).

How are they made alive?

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures" (I Corinthians 15:1-4).

"And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain" (I Corinthians 15:14).

Dang, there is that preaching again . . . but don't fret, here is the key to understanding what preaching has to do with it.

Ephesians 1:13-14 HOW THEY PUT THE CART BEFORE THE HORSE​

 

[carl11]

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" (I Corinthians 15:22).

How are they made alive?

The question at hand here is not how they are made alive but rather who are the ALL in Christ.

Likewise when the Bible says ALL of Israel will be saved. Will ALL of Israel be saved ? Of course not only a remnant will be saved. [Rom. 11:26, 9:27]

Just these two verses here alone throws out the idea that Christ died for everyone.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

You did not answer my questions.

The question at hand here is not how they are made alive but rather who are the ALL in Christ.

Likewise when the Bible says ALL of Israel will be saved. Will ALL of Israel be saved ? Of course not only a remnant will be saved. [Rom. 11:26, 9:27]

Just these two verses here alone throws out the idea that Christ died for everyone.

Back in Genesis God changed Jacob's name not to be called Jacob, but to be called Israel. Jacob (Israel) is a like figure of God's elect (Rom 9:13). Most of the time in the scriptures thereafter when Israel is used it is referring to Jacob, or God's elect.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" (I Corinthians 15:22).

How are they made alive?

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures" (I Corinthians 15:1-4).

"And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain" (I Corinthians 15:14).

Dang, there is that preaching again . . . but don't fret, here is the key to understanding what preaching has to do with it.

Ephesians 1:13-14 HOW THEY PUT THE CART BEFORE THE HORSE​

Understanding and obeying the gospel will save (deliver) you here in this world, but the gospel is not the cause of your eternal salvation. You could preach the gospel all day long to the natural man who has not been regenerated and it would be foolishness unto him, because he cannot discern spiritual things.

 

[preacher4truth]

Understanding and obeying the gospel will save (deliver) you here in this world, but the gospel is not the cause of your eternal salvation. You could preach the gospel all day long to the natural man who has not been regenerated and it would be foolishness unto him, because he cannot discern spiritual things.

That's just Primitive Baptist indoctrination you're spouting and it's untrue. Scripture denies your undermining of the power of the Gospel. Through its preaching God has decreed to save his elect eternally.