Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot

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trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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God makes his elect willing. Psalm 110:1-3.
[A Psalm of David.] The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2 The Lord shall send out a rod of power for thee out of Sion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. 3 With thee is dominion in the day of thy power, in the splendours of thy saints: I have begotten thee from the womb before the morning.

Psalms 110:1-3

:coffee::sneaky:
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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Because of this, just as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death passed to all men, because all sinned.
R 5:12

Nothing about being born guilty. Actually, the opposite is there - all people die because all people sinned. They are not guilty just because they are born or because they are descendants of Adam. Such doctrine is not biblical and is unjust.
The reason calvinists twist Romans 5:12 like that is because Calvin got his ideas from Augustine who didnt even speak greek. Nor did he bother to learn it.
And there is a mistranslation in the latin there. OOPS.

I thought these guys were into scholarly works? YOu get made fun of and get stomped by "The greek" while their golden boy augustine didnt even know greek himself.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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The reason calvinists twist Romans 5:12 like that is because Calvin got his ideas from Augustine who didnt even speak greek. Nor did he bother to learn it.
And there is a mistranslation in the latin there. OOPS.

I thought these guys were into scholarly works? YOu get made fun of and get stomped by "The greek" while their golden boy augustine didnt even know greek himself.
I actually did not know that Augustin made this Latin mistake. I googled it now, interesting.

But I still think that Augustin was a good theologian :) Everybody makes some mistakes. His works about free will and predestination are great.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Nope! not until God regenerates him and gives him the Holy Spirit so he can discern spiritual things.
Nope

This belief has God regenerating a person who is still under punishment of sin. You can not make a person alive (innocent) who has yet to be justified (declaired righteous)

Justification MUST precede Regeneration.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Then is it your assumption that the natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, can repent of breaking a spiritual commandment that he cannot understand and thinks it is foolishness?
Even paul understood how many Gentiles by nature obey the law. Even drug addicts can repent and with help or a life changing situation have stopped sin.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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The reason calvinists twist Romans 5:12 like that is because Calvin got his ideas from Augustine who didnt even speak greek. Nor did he bother to learn it.
And there is a mistranslation in the latin there. OOPS.

I thought these guys were into scholarly works? YOu get made fun of and get stomped by "The greek" while their golden boy augustine didnt even know greek himself.
Calvin's commentary to Romans 5:12:

Sin entered into the world, etc. Observe the order which he keeps here; for he says, that sin preceded, and that from sin death followed.
There are indeed some who contend, that we are so lost through Adam's sin, as though we perished through no fault of our own, but only, because he had sinned for us.
But Paul distinctly affirms, that sin extends to all who suffer its punishment: and this he afterwards more fully declares, when subsequently he assigns a reason why all the posterity of Adam are subject to the dominion of death; and it is even this -- because we have all, he says, sinned.


https://biblehub.com/commentaries/calvin/romans/5.htm

But later on, he continues that "sinned" in this context means to have a corrupted nature. So I am not sure what to make of it. Calvin seems to be unclear here, to me.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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People are born guilty....born to die in their sins.........to be saved is to be saved from somthing. No sin, no salvation necessary.
ABC's of the doctrine of salvation.

12. Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned: Romans 5:12
God by his foreknowledge saw that none would seek him. That none would do good, no, not one. (Ps 53:2-3). That is why in Eph 1 he choose an elect people before the foundation of the world and gave them to his Son to die for their sins and make them holy and without blame. Christ's death on the cross saved them from their sins before they ever committed them all by God's foreknowledge.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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God by his foreknowledge saw that none would seek him. That none would do good, no, not one. (Ps 53:2-3). That is why in Eph 1 he choose an elect people before the foundation of the world and gave them to his Son to die for their sins and make them holy and without blame. Christ's death on the cross saved them from their sins before they ever committed them all by God's foreknowledge.
God saved us from our sins in time. Ephesians 1. Ephesians 2:3.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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Even paul understood how many Gentiles by nature obey the law. Even drug addicts can repent and with help or a life changing situation have stopped sin.
The Gentiles that were obeying the law were already regenerated. And you are saying that you know that all drug addicts are not born again children of God. Are you not familiar with the scriptures that tell us how depraved we are by our fleshly nature?
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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God saved us from our sins in time. Ephesians 1. Ephesians 2:3.
Yes, we are all born into this world as sinners and God regenerates his elect sometime after their natural birth. We were bought and paid for by covenant at Christ's death. When Christ died on the cross is when we were eternally saved by covenant of God. At regeneration we were brought from being spiritually dead to be spiritually alive.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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I'm more into precrastination
Yes, we are all born into this world as sinners and God regenerates his elect sometime after their natural birth. We were bought and paid for by covenant at Christ's death. When Christ died on the cross is when we were eternally saved by covenant of God. At regeneration we were brought from being spiritually dead to be spiritually alive.
Which scripture details this "God regenerates his elect sometime after their natural birth" process?
 
Sep 9, 2018
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Illinois
I'm more into precrastination


Which scripture details this "God regenerates his elect sometime after their natural birth" process?
I thought Calvinists like to spout that so-and-so was called from the very womb. They are already elect before they are even born - and others say that there is nowhere in the Bible where anyone is instructed to ask to be saved.

I am glad that there are some here that are thoroughly grounded in God's Word.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Yes, we are all born into this world as sinners and God regenerates his elect sometime after their natural birth. We were bought and paid for by covenant at Christ's death. When Christ died on the cross is when we were eternally saved by covenant of God. At regeneration we were brought from being spiritually dead to be spiritually alive.
Does He tell them first?
 

Oncefallen

Idiot in Chief
Staff member
Jan 15, 2011
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YOU ARE NOT THE BOSS OF THE DISCUSSIONS,

Nor are you. You as the OP proposed a topic for discussion but you DO NOT "own" or control the thread. Once it is posted it is the property of and solely under the control of the administration of Christian Chat. If you don't like the submissions of particular users feel free to place them on your "ignore" list.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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The Gentiles that were obeying the law were already regenerated. And you are saying that you know that all drug addicts are not born again children of God. Are you not familiar with the scriptures that tell us how depraved we are by our fleshly nature?
I remember now why I stopped talking to you.

The gentiles were not saved, paul said the gentiles, who do not have the law by nature follow the law.

The law is written on all of our hearts. It is in our DNA, Because we are created in the image of God.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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But let us consider this.

If OSAS is true then God would only work in the lives of those He chose, for there would be no reason for God to work in the lives of those He did not choose.

1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

No person can say Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost, so if a person confesses Jesus is Lord, God would have to be working in their life.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No person can come to the Son to confess Him as Savior unless the Father draws them to the Son, so if a person confesses the Son as Savior then God is working in their life.

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

If a person confesses that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, it can only be revealed to them by the Father, so God is working in their life.

Both OSAS and those that oppose OSAS believe those things, and confess those things, so God would have to be working among both of them, so the ones that do not believe OSAS would have to still be saved even though they do not believe OSAS, so why do the OSAS people bother to hassle them if they are saved too.

It seems like the OSAS people try to say the criteria for being saved is believing in OSAS instead of acting Christlike being led of the Spirit, having works of love.

But the Bible says many are called, but few are chosen, so God does the calling and choosing on earth.

And the Lord knows them that are His having this seal, for this is what seals the saints, and how they are led of the Spirit, that everyone that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

And if a person hates sin, and does not want sin, by the Spirit they can abstain from sin, for they will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, for they have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, and show the ways of the Spirit, and not the ways of the flesh.

And those that are led of the Spirit are not under the law, because their sins are forgiven, and they are abstaining from sin, so the law cannot touch them for prosecution.

But all sin can be forgiven but a person should have the proper attitude and get rid of it and keep moving forward and do not hold unto sin, for then the blood of Christ cannot wash it away.

So which belief is right OSAS or a person can lose salvation if they do not act Christlike led by the Spirit.

Which it appears that those that say to act Christlike led by the Spirit seem to have the truth in the matter.

If OSAS is true then both beliefs would be saved for they confess those things concerning Jesus, and God is working in their life.

But many are called, but few are chosen, so many confess those things but not all will be saved, for some have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, and it points out their sins, and they are lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God, for they want to enjoy the world like the world enjoys it, and believe they are still saved.

And God said to turn away from them, so if OSAS says they cannot abstain from sin, and sin does not affect their relationship with God, does it seem like they are the ones that fit that attitude of having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof, for a Spirit led life will not sin, and they say they cannot abstain from sins, so they would have to be denying the Spirit leading them.

If OSAS is true then God's kingdom is not true love, and He is not evil to condemn people that have no choice but to reject truth seeing no other alternative.

That means the ones God did choose their faith is not real, their confession of Christ is not real, their love of God is not real, their hope is not real, their repenting of their sins is not real, for it did not come from them but from God.

If OSAS is true then God would of not have created the earth, for the earth would serve no purpose for God could create them to be with Him, and cut out the earth, and the result would be the same for they have no participation in their salvation.

The reason that there is an earth that people dwell on is because they have to be apart from God, so they can choose that salvation while not dwelling with God, believing it is true by faith.

But if OSAS is true there is no purpose for the earth.



Attach files
Here is a good way to see things,

If OSAS is true, God must do all the work

If OSAS is not true, Then men must do part or all of the work.

What does scripture say?

Not of works LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST (Take Credit)

One does not need a long drawn out reply. Just some commn sense.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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eternally-gratefull, post: You need to restudy romans 9, It does not support fatalism.

And it doesn't teach fatalism when showing God has mercy on whom he wills, and whom he wills he hardens. That's been God's way since the beginning of time.

You don't understand fatalism. You think you do, but sorry, you don't, so the above is a false accusation and false assumption.

Nor do you accept the plain teaching of Romans 9 because you deem God unfair...been down this road with you in the past, but I am posting this for the sake of others:

Fatalism, for everyone else, is impersonal. God's Sovereign plan of redemption is hardly impersonal. Huge difference. Everyone trying to get God off the hook as if he is "unjust" for not saving some by his own will not to.

Bumper crop of Romans 9:20 people these days...
 
Mar 14, 2011
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This is the accompanying account of the narrow path in Matthew:
Luke 13:
23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”
And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

So what is this narrow path and gate?

I think John tells us EXACTLY.

John 10:9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] They will come in and go out, and find pasture.


I tried to see the wide path, that leads to DESTRUCTION, the way FGC sees it, that those that enter it will be saved, but it simply isn't there. And the attempt to use that Abraham will have SAVED descendants as numerous as the sand on the sea, as justification that the wide path people will be saved, frankly seems like a HUGE stretch.

Why can't there be numerous saved, yet a VASTLY MORE numerous amount that are not?

So if Jesus is the Narrow Path and Narrow Gate, what is the wide path that leads to destruction?

I believe it is EVERY attempt to enter that is NOT Jesus. Partial list:
Baha'i,Buddhism, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, Judaism, Shinto,Sikhism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, Mormonism. And the MOST deceived of all, WORKS BASED CHRISTIANITY.

Every one of these religions have ONE thing in common. MAN ATTEMPTING TO EITHER WORK HIS WAY TO HEAVEN OR BECOME LIKE GOD.
I also like the way he said it.

“Strive to enter”

It is not done for us, We have to chose,