Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot

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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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I don't believe that a person can read and understand the gospel, until God quicken's them to life.
If that were true sinners would be saved BEFORE they are saved, since regeneration (which includes quickening) equals salvation.

As you can see this is not only absurd, but contrary to Scripture. The unsaved can indeed read, understand, and believe the Gospel, since the Gospel is "the power of God unto salvation". The Gospel is the Word of God, and it is a living Word. At the same time God the Holy Spirit convicts and convinces sinners, and draws them to Christ. And it is only AFTER they repent and believe that they are saved by grace, regenerated, and have their spirits "quickened" or made alive.

As to the rest of your post, you are simply repeating what the Calvinists have taught you -- that God elects some for salvation and others for damnation. And that contradicts the Gospel. And when you contradict the Gospel, you contradict God and Christ.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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I don't believe that a person can read and understand the gospel, until God quicken's them to life. The gospel is a spiritual message so the natural/carnal man cannot understand it.
After much careful study of the topic of salvation, I have arrived at the conclusion that God is the One who initiates and finishes the work of salvation. We have absolutely 0% input into our salvation, since we are all born dead and dead people can do nothing at all.

The Bible makes it crystal clear that God chose His elect before He created the world, so we would need to deny God's word if we were to claim that we have some input into the work of salvation.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God....this contradicts your order.....
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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The Bible makes it crystal clear that God chose His elect before He created the world, so we would need to deny God's word if we were to claim that we have some input into the work of salvation.
If this were true then there was never a time when you were the object of God’s wrath. There was never a time when you were dead in trespasses and sins. That goes against the truth of God’s word.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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So you're redefining the doctrine of total inability from being the inhibition of sin making us unable to respond to the gospel? As I said, John 6:44 says no such thing about our inability as it is about those who submit to the teaching of the Father that it is revealed Jesus is the Christ which is shown in the verses that follow. That is a totally different thing from being prevented by some inherent inability.

Now you're bringing into the picture Satan blinding people? Which is it, is it that we lack a capacity, God prevents some from coming, or Satan? None of those verses speak to a total inability, especially as it is commonly held by Calvinists that the will is bound by sin.

If you want to re-define doctrine you've abandoned Calvinism and instead are defending an entirely different doctrine.

With all of that I can't tell if you are arguing in bad faith or not.
I'm not redefining anything. I was just showing scripture that shows we don't just come to Christ by our own will and decisions. Like you and others are claiming.

You are trying to pull at a thread to try and unravel the Word of Christ. I'm showing you where that thread stops. John 6:44.

You can argue with the theology that it is sin that has bound the will and that causes inability. That IS the reason, but you can still show unsaved people doing "good" things and bring about some doubt.

But you can't bring doubt upon Gods Word.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Same verse again and again..

Who was Paul writing to and what did he want them to understand... how people are chosen personally for salvation by God ...NO... that is ridiculous in context of entire theme of the letter to the Romans.
Its only ridiculous to your philosophy of how you think you choose God and make Him save you.

These verses go directly against that thought.

So when you start trying to have a theology you have to keep these verses in mind. Otherwise you just go off the rails.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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I can quote it too pal...

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

And what you quoted does not even come close to proving the evil Calvinistic error that you and your pals embrace and peddle as fact.....
You mean that God is Sovereign and that God chooses His People?

That is the evil error you are fighting against?

The whole bible is filled with this FACT.
 

Duskey

Well-known member
May 31, 2020
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You mean that God is Sovereign and that God chooses His People? The whole bible is filled with this FACT.
Then how come your calvinist pal wimps out on responding to post 2745 whereby I pledge to be a proponent of calvinism if it can be proven beyond measure?

It must be God’s will that he wimps out and not his personal choice to wimp out. 🤔
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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You mean that God is Sovereign and that God chooses His People?

That is the evil error you are fighting against?

The whole bible is filled with this FACT.
Are you telling me you cannot differentiate between God using "a nation" a "group of people" to bring His will to pass so the Messiah can enter the world, and then how He deals with individuals as part of the group or outside of that group?

That is major error in understanding scripture by the way.
 

Bbrdrd

Active member
Apr 2, 2020
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I'm not redefining anything. I was just showing scripture that shows we don't just come to Christ by our own will and decisions. Like you and others are claiming.

You are trying to pull at a thread to try and unravel the Word of Christ. I'm showing you where that thread stops. John 6:44.

You can argue with the theology that it is sin that has bound the will and that causes inability. That IS the reason, but you can still show unsaved people doing "good" things and bring about some doubt.

But you can't bring doubt upon Gods Word.
First, the verse you posted doesn't show that and second that is not what you were asked to prove. As I pointed out when the verse is returned to its context the meaning changes from the one you are trying to present to one that has to do with submission to the Father leading to supernatural revelation.

But as is typical you promise far more than you deliver proof wise and continue to rely on the same out of context verse as if it demonstrates your point when it has already been returned to its context to show its meaning is not what you are implying with it.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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I wash my hands of this evil thread.....Calvinism is false, not of God and the people peddling it are as deceptive as they come with no honesty or scriptural integrity!
Those who follow the tenets of John Calvin are chameleons, accusers and deceivers.

They work inside the flock, steal from within the flock and destroy the faith of many within the flock.

Like a virus within Christianity.

Yet look at their how they promote a different Jesus..

-one that did not give himself a propitiation for the sins of the whole world
-one that did not die for all
-one who did not taste death for every man
-one who did not give himself a ransom for all

A different one than the Christ of the Bible.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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You don't even need Calvinism to see the error in stating the opposite of what Calvinism teaches.

All you need is your bible and common sense.


The Sacrifice of Christ is sufficient for the whole world. But it is not APPLIED to the whole world. Otherwise everyone is atoned for and Salvation is not necessary. There is no wrath in order to judge the sinner.

So the Sacrifice of Christ is ABSOLUTELY limited to those who are Saved and those who will be Saved.
This is true,

this the factor is what is done for those who are saved to be saved vs those who are not saved to not be saved.

and I think Jesus gave us that answer in John 3: 18-21
 
Mar 14, 2011
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So everyone is already saved.

No need for preaching or even reading the bible.

Hell wasn't even made for men.

It was "unbiblical" for me to even insinuate that some people aren't saved.
I think you misunderstand what he said, not sure how you got this view fro the fact he’ll was not made for mankind.,
 
Mar 14, 2011
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So if that is the case then Salvation is absolutely by works and by merit.

It is men that must come to the Knowledge and gain the Wisdom to finally realize how depraved (uh-oh) they are and how much they need to depart from their own evil actions and come to Christ and ask for His Help.

But how can they gain this knowledge and wisdom if they don't even acknowledge that they are depraved to begin with?

And where does this Knowledge and Wisdom even come from?
It comes from God, it is why he was sent to the world, in spirit, then in body, then again in spirit (via the son and the HS.

the tax collecting falling on his knee did not earn salvation, he took what God showed him about his sin, and cried out for mercy.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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That is what you are saying. I just paraphrased.

Hell was not made for men. Everyone is already saved because Christ has drawn ALL men to Him.

Nice philosophy. But I don't think it will float.
No grandpa. This is not what he is saying, he’ll was created for satan, and man fell, and chose to follow satan, they chose to follow hi. To his domain, hell
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Then how come your calvinist pal wimps out on responding to post 2745 whereby I pledge to be a proponent of calvinism if it can be proven beyond measure?

It must be God’s will that he wimps out and not his personal choice to wimp out. 🤔
He probably figures it would be a waste of time.

I don't respond to lots of posts because of this. If you have to understand a few things before you will understand the last thing, then it is a GIANT waste of time to present this to someone who won't or doesn't want to understand the first few things.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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First, the verse you posted doesn't show that and second that is not what you were asked to prove. As I pointed out when the verse is returned to its context the meaning changes from the one you are trying to present to one that has to do with submission to the Father leading to supernatural revelation.

But as is typical you promise far more than you deliver proof wise and continue to rely on the same out of context verse as if it demonstrates your point when it has already been returned to its context to show its meaning is not what you are implying with it.
All I get from your post is that you don't understand even the question you asked much less the answer given.

Were you expecting a canned Calvinist answer?

Your original question, that you thought you would "unravel" Calvinism with was "prove inability" not just depravity.

I did it with ONE verse. Apparently that was too easy and definitive so now you are complaining.


How does No man CAN come to me mean something other than No man CAN come to me by putting it into "context"? I think what you mean is that it is much easier for you to twist scripture if I add more scripture to my explanation.

No need to. Either you will understand that you are wrong or you will not. It appears you just don't want to admit you are wrong because maybe you have some argument against some classic Calvinist argument that makes sense to you.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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I think you misunderstand what he said, not sure how you got this view fro the fact he’ll was not made for mankind.,
He said hell wasn't made for mankind and Christ draws ALL men to Himself.

What conclusion would you come to from those two statements?
 
Mar 14, 2011
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John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Well that was easy. Really John 6:44 all by itself tells you of your inability. John 15:5 just nails it home.


Its only a response and a recognition because God has first Drawn the individual to Him. Otherwise, the magic words would work on everyone. The same words, the same preaching that would bring one Salvation would bring all.

Because you would have to ask yourself, why was I smart enough to respond to the gospel but those other 50 were not? I must be really smart, wise, great, full of discernment, etc... But Gods Word says the opposite. Not many mighty, not many wise... No flesh shall glory in His Presence.
faith has nothing to do with smarts.

it has to do with weakness,

there is no smarts about it,,

we do not glory in our faith, we only glory in God,, whoever taught people that faith in god is works based gospel is a master deciever