Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot

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dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
46,184
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113
No works involved and not by merit because it comes from hearing, it's a response and recognition.

The knowledge of depravity comes from encountering God, just as Adam when he sinned knew his condition and sought to hide from God.

But salvation is not by knowledge or wisdom. And this is where Calvinism inflames pride because it teaches men that they've received a special knowledge from God that other men don't have and that this knowledge is an essential knowledge.

And again you conflate depravity with total depravity/inability. How about rather than arguing about how and where the atonement is limited you begin demonstrating total inability. And just to make it more difficult, do so without proof texting Isaiah 64:6 while ignoring 64:1-5, proof texting the 51st psalm while ignoring that it is poetry, proof texting Romans 3:10 while ignoring it is a quote of psalm 14 which speaks of an entire generation of righteous after that declaration.

Amen...........
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,698
113
Only in your mind pal....most here see right through you!
You keep proving my point. You bring nothing because you have nothing to bring.

Your next response will prove my point yet again. It's just a repeat of nothing but name calling and elementary school ridicule. It's all you got. Nothing.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
10,544
1,579
113
If John 12:32 does mean every single person, then everyone is saved, because everyone drawn will be saved:

John 6:37
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Same thing here:
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

All men means all men, condemnation came to everyone without us having to do anything, same thing with salvation, hey, it says all men!

I showed that not because im a universalist, but just to show that this simplistic "well it says all" argument can be used by anyone else too, as there are verses that say specifically His people or MANY (not all but MANY):

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Speaking of Jesus giving His life for the sheep. Now the response is well who are the sheep? Not the goats, sheep are the ones who believe many would say, right? Well that would be correct. Then the quesiton is, why wont people believe? Jesus tells us:

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

So what Jesus said here is the OPPOSITE of what we are often told, we are told "You arent sheep because you dont believe." But Jesus said "You dont believe because you are not my sheep"
Nope, just because the Lord draws a man unto himself does not mean the man will be saved. That’s faulty logic or a misunderstanding of what the verses actually say.

His people meaning the nation of Israel.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,410
2,527
113
Nope, just because the Lord draws a man unto himself does not mean the man will be saved. That’s faulty logic or a misunderstanding of what the verses actually say.

His people meaning the nation of Israel.
John 6:44 isnt faulty logic. all drawn are raised too, the drawing of God is more capable than my drawing. I WOULD HOPE SO.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
46,184
20,109
113
You keep proving my point. You bring nothing because you have nothing to bring.

Your next response will prove my point yet again. It's just a repeat of nothing but name calling and elementary school ridicule. It's all you got. Nothing.
The truth is the truth and the truth is simple...You are a religionist, peddling that which is false, all your false points have been refuted by many, your dishonesty is seen by all with eyes open and the only thing being proven other than what I listed is your hypocrisy.....exactly why many have you on ignore and most discuss you behind the scenes....but hey...I bet your people think you are all that and a bag of spiritual chips hey.....pride goes before a fall and a haughty spirit before destruction....your time is short and you will answer for all the deceit you peddle....good luck!
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
46,184
20,109
113
I wash my hands of this evil thread.....Calvinism is false, not of God and the people peddling it are as deceptive as they come with no honesty or scriptural integrity!
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
8,505
8,978
113
You've proven my point, you bring nothing because you have nothing to bring.
@dcontroversal knows and brings TRUTH as well as countless who are non-Calvinists.

All else aside, that still puts him and others light years ahead. God is pleased when truth is guarded.

Is all your ad hominem because you cannot defend the indefensible?
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
8,505
8,978
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If you believe God actually hates about 90% of his creation and has them damned them to hell without hope or a prayer and not because of anything they have done, but rather for his own pleasure, what more license do you need to feel the same way?

Even if you say 'I don't know who they are'... what are the odds you'll be wrong if you do choose to hate someone? This was Calvin's justification for burning heretics without regret.

He actually believed was doing God a favor. It is antithetical to the command of Christ to love your enemy.

What a sad dogma to uphold.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
8,505
8,978
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It's hilarious watching @dcontroversal mouthing incessantly, yet says absolutely nothing, has no substantiation, just callow slander and blatant unfamiliarity.

Which begs the question. He has self-proclaimed his deep deep theological study on cults (LOL!!!!) and lumps in Calvinism (LOL!!!) something he studied deeply at some podunk missionary Baptist "seminary" and this that he brings here is all he's got to show for it?

Yup.

Doesnt appear to me he's studied anywhere, but if that is the result? Well they either need to retrieve his "degree" or he needs to demand a refund. The kid is giving that "seminary" a really really bad reputation. This is what it turns out?

You can see they taught him to an expert level, can't you? A master on the subject, see all the documentation, substantiation, pithy arguments he brings, the exegesis, exposition, knowledge? Exactly, he doesn't bring any of that.

Apparently all he really learned were the words peddle, pal, hahaha, calvinite, dogma, migo and other blather. Once he learned those words he graduated?

Then he falsely claimed in blissful ignorance that Calvin coined TULIP? Lol!!! A theological amateur would know that came, um, after he died. That he in ignorance didnt know that little detail? Well, it shows he didn't study anything, it is one of the very most basic mistakes people make on Calvin, and obviously the "professor" who "taught" this alleged "cults" class didn't know what he's talking about. This shows he is inept exorbitant himself on that subject.

Knowing several professors I'm going to inquire with this school and ask it about the things this guys claims it teaches.

Learning to slander, libel, curse, yell, call names isn't an education at all, it shows ones unfamiliarity on the subject. Yet this juvenile pattern is witnessed on here daily. He brings nothing because, well, he has nothing to bring.
Yes just like I asserted.....

You do not have to worry about your reputation getting in the way of who you truly are! Yet those who might be persuaded are

treated ever so gently.... exploit their vulnerabilities, that is how Calvinism works right, it is well documented.

Noted by another, many have left sadly....

This is how you and your minions have been treating me and others in here as well.
 

Blue_Of_Lake

Active member
Jun 12, 2020
172
60
28
I wash my hands of this evil thread.....Calvinism is false, not of God and the people peddling it are as deceptive as they come with no honesty or scriptural integrity!

we should maybe seek the Spirit's guidance in many things, beliefs, ideas not just Stay with what we Already think we know, because God knows More than Any of Us. there is not necessarily a need to believe in any other's belief/beliefs/isms/religion.


there are Bibles, there is God, there is the internet to Search with, there is the Spirit of God that will or can lead us into all Truth.


but if certain beliefs help us or we feel drawn to them then maybe that is where we can be helped at any certain point in our Walk with God in spiritual growth and Change.


that said, those who make up belief systems or promote them very much to others should be reminded of this verse:


James 3:1

New Living Translation
Dear brothers and sisters, not many of you should become teachers in the church, for we who teach will be judged more strictly.

English Standard Version
Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

Berean Literal Bible
Not many of you should be teachers my brothers, knowing that we will receive greater judgment.

New American Standard Bible
Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,422
2,480
113
No works involved and not by merit because it comes from hearing, it's a response and recognition.

The knowledge of depravity comes from encountering God, just as Adam when he sinned knew his condition and sought to hide from God.

But salvation is not by knowledge or wisdom. And this is where Calvinism inflames pride because it teaches men that they've received a special knowledge from God that other men don't have and that this knowledge is an essential knowledge.

And again you conflate depravity with total depravity/inability. How about rather than arguing about how and where the atonement is limited you begin demonstrating total inability. And just to make it more difficult, do so without proof texting Isaiah 64:6 while ignoring 64:1-5, proof texting the 51st psalm while ignoring that it is poetry, proof texting Romans 3:10 while ignoring it is a quote of psalm 14 which speaks of an entire generation of righteous after that declaration.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Well that was easy. Really John 6:44 all by itself tells you of your inability. John 15:5 just nails it home.


Its only a response and a recognition because God has first Drawn the individual to Him. Otherwise, the magic words would work on everyone. The same words, the same preaching that would bring one Salvation would bring all.

Because you would have to ask yourself, why was I smart enough to respond to the gospel but those other 50 were not? I must be really smart, wise, great, full of discernment, etc... But Gods Word says the opposite. Not many mighty, not many wise... No flesh shall glory in His Presence.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,422
2,480
113
Read Romans and embrace the truth over Calvin's error!
I quote Romans to you and you don't believe it.

Romans 9:21-24
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
 

Bbrdrd

Active member
Apr 2, 2020
634
213
43
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Well that was easy. Really John 6:44 all by itself tells you of your inability. John 15:5 just nails it home.


Its only a response and a recognition because God has first Drawn the individual to Him. Otherwise, the magic words would work on everyone. The same words, the same preaching that would bring one Salvation would bring all.

Because you would have to ask yourself, why was I smart enough to respond to the gospel but those other 50 were not? I must be really smart, wise, great, full of discernment, etc... But Gods Word says the opposite. Not many mighty, not many wise... No flesh shall glory in His Presence.
You keep proof texting John 6:44, are you really building an entire system of theology off of a single out of context verse?

Especially since no where in there is some mystical inability due to sin, but Jesus pointing at who He is which can be seen when we consider the rest of the pericope:
" It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh. "

So no, Jesus is not excluding people from salvation in John 6:44 but is instead inviting the audience that is rejecting Him into that very salvation.

And with John 15:5 it is again not about us being so depraved that we are unable to recognize and respond to the gospel. Otherwise when Jesus said "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. " in John 5:30 He was saying He was total depraved.

So how about you find a verse that actually says that our sin prevents us from even being able to produce a genuine response to the gospel rather than twisting verses that have absolutely nothing to do with our sinful state to try to make the Bible say what you want it to.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,422
2,480
113
You keep proof texting John 6:44, are you really building an entire system of theology off of a single out of context verse?

Especially since no where in there is some mystical inability due to sin, but Jesus pointing at who He is which can be seen when we consider the rest of the pericope:
" It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh. "

So no, Jesus is not excluding people from salvation in John 6:44 but is instead inviting the audience that is rejecting Him into that very salvation.

And with John 15:5 it is again not about us being so depraved that we are unable to recognize and respond to the gospel. Otherwise when Jesus said "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. " in John 5:30 He was saying He was total depraved.

So how about you find a verse that actually says that our sin prevents us from even being able to produce a genuine response to the gospel rather than twisting verses that have absolutely nothing to do with our sinful state to try to make the Bible say what you want it to.
I wasn't even speaking of sin. I was speaking of total inability.

Keep reading John 6:44. Maybe it will sink in. Its really simple.

No one can come to Christ, I.E. Salvation, unless they are drawn by the Father.

Once they are drawn by the Father they are Saved, eternally.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.


It is not merely sin that is preventing people from responding to the gospel. It is everything in this world.

2 Corinthians 4:3-7
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.


Why is it so difficult to say that there was nothing in me that was drawn to Godliness, but rather it was Gods Leading that brought me to Salvation?

You really think you are smart enough to perfectly follow the instructions of the Gospel while simultaneously your mind is being blinded by the god of this world?

That last one was rhetorical. You aren't. No one is.
 

Bbrdrd

Active member
Apr 2, 2020
634
213
43
I wasn't even speaking of sin. I was speaking of total inability.

Keep reading John 6:44. Maybe it will sink in. Its really simple.

No one can come to Christ, I.E. Salvation, unless they are drawn by the Father.

Once they are drawn by the Father they are Saved, eternally.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.


It is not merely sin that is preventing people from responding to the gospel. It is everything in this world.

2 Corinthians 4:3-7
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.


Why is it so difficult to say that there was nothing in me that was drawn to Godliness, but rather it was Gods Leading that brought me to Salvation?

You really think you are smart enough to perfectly follow the instructions of the Gospel while simultaneously your mind is being blinded by the god of this world?

That last one was rhetorical. You aren't. No one is.
So you're redefining the doctrine of total inability from being the inhibition of sin making us unable to respond to the gospel? As I said, John 6:44 says no such thing about our inability as it is about those who submit to the teaching of the Father that it is revealed Jesus is the Christ which is shown in the verses that follow. That is a totally different thing from being prevented by some inherent inability.

Now you're bringing into the picture Satan blinding people? Which is it, is it that we lack a capacity, God prevents some from coming, or Satan? None of those verses speak to a total inability, especially as it is commonly held by Calvinists that the will is bound by sin.

If you want to re-define doctrine you've abandoned Calvinism and instead are defending an entirely different doctrine.

With all of that I can't tell if you are arguing in bad faith or not.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
46,184
20,109
113
I quote Romans to you and you don't believe it.

Romans 9:21-24
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
I can quote it too pal...

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

And what you quoted does not even come close to proving the evil Calvinistic error that you and your pals embrace and peddle as fact.....
 
Apr 9, 2020
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I may be misunderstanding you on your second sentence; "God grants us everything we need to receive salvation, including the gospel'. Do you think that we can read and understand the gospel before we are quickened to a new life?
I don't believe that a person can read and understand the gospel, until God quicken's them to life. The gospel is a spiritual message so the natural/carnal man cannot understand it.
After much careful study of the topic of salvation, I have arrived at the conclusion that God is the One who initiates and finishes the work of salvation. We have absolutely 0% input into our salvation, since we are all born dead and dead people can do nothing at all.

The Bible makes it crystal clear that God chose His elect before He created the world, so we would need to deny God's word if we were to claim that we have some input into the work of salvation.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
8,505
8,978
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I quote Romans to you and you don't believe it.

Romans 9:21-24
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Same verse again and again..

Who was Paul writing to and what did he want them to understand... how people are chosen personally for salvation by God ...NO... that is ridiculous in context of entire theme of the letter to the Romans.