Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot

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garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,824
1,059
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#61
People do debate about OSAS and not OSAS.

OSAS says they cannot abstain from sin, and sin does not affect their relationship with God, and obviously they sin because they say they cannot abstain from sins, so sin cannot affect their relationship with God, because they can never fall, and those that oppose OSAS says that they can abstain from sin by the Spirit, and sin does affect their relationship with God, and they can lose out on salvation if they hold unto sin.

But let us consider this.

If OSAS is true then God would only work in the lives of those He chose, for there would be no reason for God to work in the lives of those He did not choose.

1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

No person can say Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost, so if a person confesses Jesus is Lord, God would have to be working in their life.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No person can come to the Son to confess Him as Savior unless the Father draws them to the Son, so if a person confesses the Son as Savior then God is working in their life.

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

If a person confesses that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, it can only be revealed to them by the Father, so God is working in their life.

Both OSAS and those that oppose OSAS believe those things, and confess those things, so God would have to be working among both of them, so the ones that do not believe OSAS would have to still be saved even though they do not believe OSAS, so why do the OSAS people bother to hassle them if they are saved too.

It seems like the OSAS people try to say the criteria for being saved is believing in OSAS instead of acting Christlike being led of the Spirit, having works of love.

But the Bible says many are called, but few are chosen, so God does the calling and choosing on earth.

And the Lord knows them that are His having this seal, for this is what seals the saints, and how they are led of the Spirit, that everyone that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

And if a person hates sin, and does not want sin, by the Spirit they can abstain from sin, for they will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, for they have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, and show the ways of the Spirit, and not the ways of the flesh.

And those that are led of the Spirit are not under the law, because their sins are forgiven, and they are abstaining from sin, so the law cannot touch them for prosecution.

But all sin can be forgiven but a person should have the proper attitude and get rid of it and keep moving forward and do not hold unto sin, for then the blood of Christ cannot wash it away.

So which belief is right OSAS or a person can lose salvation if they do not act Christlike led by the Spirit.

Which it appears that those that say to act Christlike led by the Spirit seem to have the truth in the matter.

If OSAS is true then both beliefs would be saved for they confess those things concerning Jesus, and God is working in their life.

But many are called, but few are chosen, so many confess those things but not all will be saved, for some have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, and it points out their sins, and they are lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God, for they want to enjoy the world like the world enjoys it, and believe they are still saved.

And God said to turn away from them, so if OSAS says they cannot abstain from sin, and sin does not affect their relationship with God, does it seem like they are the ones that fit that attitude of having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof, for a Spirit led life will not sin, and they say they cannot abstain from sins, so they would have to be denying the Spirit leading them.

If OSAS is true then God's kingdom is not true love, and He is not evil to condemn people that have no choice but to reject truth seeing no other alternative.

That means the ones God did choose their faith is not real, their confession of Christ is not real, their love of God is not real, their hope is not real, their repenting of their sins is not real, for it did not come from them but from God.

If OSAS is true then God would of not have created the earth, for the earth would serve no purpose for God could create them to be with Him, and cut out the earth, and the result would be the same for they have no participation in their salvation.

The reason that there is an earth that people dwell on is because they have to be apart from God, so they can choose that salvation while not dwelling with God, believing it is true by faith.

But if OSAS is true there is no purpose for the earth.



Attach files
Sin does affect our relationship with Christ who alone begins the good work of salavation in us with a promise to finish it. (Philippians 1:16) We just don't lose that which he began in us a living, abiding Hope that surpasses human hope. It will endure to the end. All die not receiving the goal of their new faith a incorruptible body .

He cannot deny his own self in unbelief... even if we do not believe (no faith) or deny Him. As always he does the first works, the work in us (imputed) that does endure to the end. With him finishing is better than starting... just as in the same way His patience the first work of Love( 1 Corinthians 13) is better that pride . His love is not boastful if it is kind the second work... right back to the first work long suffering all working together as one work

What do you mean by....if OSAS is true there is no purpose for the earth ? This corrupted earth, or the new heavens and earth the incorruptible?
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,454
15,311
113
#62
In my post #8 to BaptistBeliever I gave some support scriptures indicating that there would be a great number in heaven that they could not be numbered. I believe the scriptures teach that there will be far more in heaven than in hell. I am sure that I can give more support with some recollection and research.
You are not correct in your assessment....

HELL enlarges itself WITHOUT MEASURE and the words MANY and FEW are clear when it comes to who busts hell wide open and or those who are saved......!!
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,454
15,311
113
#64
People do debate about OSAS and not OSAS.

OSAS says they cannot abstain from sin, and sin does not affect their relationship with God, and obviously they sin because they say they cannot abstain from sins, so sin cannot affect their relationship with God, because they can never fall, and those that oppose OSAS says that they can abstain from sin by the Spirit, and sin does affect their relationship with God, and they can lose out on salvation if they hold unto sin.
It does no good to read past your first few lies and misrepresentations of the truth......FOLKS...HIS above statement is a lie and false.....people who teach eternal security do NOT believe and or peddle the straw man lies he puts forth to support a losable salvation......
 
Dec 28, 2016
8,160
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#65
You have that wrong too. The elect is so great an amount that they can not be numbered (Gen 32:12). God is talking to Jacob, who he changed his name to be called Israel, (Gen 32:28), saying I will surly do you good and make thy seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude. The strait gate in Matt 5 is not talking about leading to eternal life, but to the abundant life that those of his elect have that have been revealed the truths of Jesus's doctrine. The wide gate are also the elect of God who have not been revealed the truth because they are going about to establish their own righteousness by their works. The people going in both gates are God's elect and will all go to heaven because Christ died for them.
That does not mean that all of his offspring are given eternal life. You realize that Jesus rejected this idea of offspring = automatic ticket to eternal life in John 8, right? Yes the number is vast and great, but you've gone too far in your response. I also disagree with your Matthew 5 interpretation because it is based off of a false presumption of Genesis 32.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
314
83
#66
This is just major false doctrine. WOW.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Jesus just destroyed your false teaching there.
Stop teaching that immediately.
YOU ARE NOT THE BOSS OF THE DISCUSSIONS, and this room is not for anti-calvinsm fascists, it is for discussion of the docrines of grace, the solas, the trinity and amillenium eschatology as was listed in the beginning. You want to add to or ask ABOUT these beliefs of Calinism then do so politely. thank you Your ORDER to stop teaching IMMEDIATELY was out of line.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,281
2,433
113
#68
YOU ARE NOT THE BOSS OF THE DISCUSSIONS, and this room is not for anti-calvinsm fascists, it is for discussion of the docrines of grace, the solas, the trinity and amillenium eschatology as was listed in the beginning. You want to add to or ask ABOUT these beliefs of Calinism then do so politely. thank you
Fascists? LOL. What about your buddy Johnny Calvin? Was he a fascist? No? ok.

I was simply responding to someone who spouted out some clear false doctrine. And I was being as polite as I could when someone clearly contradicted what Jesus said in the verses I posted.

Also, I may not be the boss of the discussion, but I dont take orders from you pal. I post whatever I want, and if the MODERATORS say something, I will do as they say.

I will continue to post ON TOPIC now, because im such a friendly jolly guy, not because you are bossing me around, and I apologize if you've been hurt. Ironically you did not call out the guy who I responded to, who STARTED going off topic, HMM?
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,454
15,311
113
#70
Fascists? LOL. What about your buddy Johnny Calvin? Was he a fascist? No? ok.

I was simply responding to someone who spouted out some clear false doctrine. And I was being as polite as I could when someone clearly contradicted what Jesus said in the verses I posted.

Also, I may not be the boss of the discussion, but I dont take orders from you pal. I post whatever I want, and if the MODERATORS say something, I will do as they say.

I will continue to post ON TOPIC now, because im such a friendly jolly guy, not because you are bossing me around, and I apologize if you've been hurt. Ironically you did not call out the guy who I responded to, who STARTED going off topic, HMM?

HAHAHHA I love the word PAL.......I about spit toast that I made on my wood stove all over my laptop HAHA
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
314
83
#71
It does no good to read past your first few lies and misrepresentations of the truth......FOLKS...HIS above statement is a lie and false.....people who teach eternal security do NOT believe and or peddle the straw man lies he puts forth to support a losable salvation......
Yet another "Let's bash each other and pretend we're discussing doctrine" thread. Like it was needed.

Oy vey...
apparently "bashers" live to bash, can't seem to control that old sin nature.......or maybe its just THEIR true nature? hmmmm
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
314
83
#74
How do you define "T" in TULIP?
T =- total depravity

Depravity – corrupt, perverse, marked by corruption or evil
Corrupt – morally degenerate, perverted, decline in moral standards
Perverse – turned away from what is right and good or correct and proper; wrong headed

Totally depraved is how God sees US, not how we see ourselves. The doctrine of total depravity says that man is as bad off as he can be, which may not always be manifested in conduct but is made manifest in every other way (opinions, ideology, desires, etc)

Unregenerate man is the natural man, the unbeliever. He oversteps the bound of decency God has set for man. In his natural state he is:
Full of iniquity – that which is altogether wrong
Wicked – the outward expression of his evil nature
Evil (in man) – that which opposes the goodness and holiness of God
Ungodly – lacks respect and reverence for God 2 Tim 3: 2-5
Lawless – is in open contempt of divine law
Disobedient – unwillingness to be led or guided in the ways of trut
Iniquitous – altogether wrong
In Error – gone astray from the bounds of decen
Deceitful - Jer 17:9
Hard Matt 19:8
Inclined to wickedness Is 32:6
Unstable in all his ways James 1:18
They distort the word to their own destruction 2 Peter 3;16

Reprobate (those who are ordained to damnation) stay in their natural state and perish.

Spiritually dead – the natural man cannot receive the things of God because they are spiritually discerned (1 Cor 2:14) when Adam died spiritually for that first sin, all mankind died with him, and is imputed with Adam’s sin. Unless a man is regenerated in his spirit (made alive), he will perish.

Under Condemnation – Adam’s sin is imputed to all men, making all men born under condemnation for that sin. Romans 5: 12, 19
(judgement arose from ONE transgression resulting in condemnation Rom 5: 16)



the things that proceed out of the hearts of the unregenerate man and defile him: (Mark 7: 20-23)
evil thoughts Adulteries sensuality
fornications deeds of coveting envy
thefts wickedness slander
murders deceit pride
FOOLISHNESS

Rom 3:10 there is none who is righteous, no not one
Is 17:9 the heart is deceitful above all else and is desparately sick
Ecc 9:3 the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil
Rom 7: 18 in the flesh dwells no good thing
2 Tim 3:8 some men are reprobate concerning the truth

REPROBATE – adokimos – unapproved, rejected, castaway, worthless, reprobate (Strong’s)

Men ordained to damnation (Webster’s)
 
Mar 14, 2011
64,285
10,695
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#75
It does no good to read past your first few lies and misrepresentations of the truth......FOLKS...HIS above statement is a lie and false.....people who teach eternal security do NOT believe and or peddle the straw man lies he puts forth to support a losable salvation......
Its amazing as to how many people slam something that they have no understanding o.

Then think everyone can not read through their ignorance and see how unlearned they are of others.
 
Mar 14, 2011
64,285
10,695
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#76
A totally depraved person can see his own sin, They can see his own judgment, and know they are rightly judged (see romans 1) they can see enough to know they have no excuse, meaning they can also see (with the help of God who comes to convict the world of sin righteousness and judgment) the way to salvation. By grace through faith. And not of themselves.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
779
113
#77
T =- total depravity

Depravity – corrupt, perverse, marked by corruption or evil
Corrupt – morally degenerate, perverted, decline in moral standards
Perverse – turned away from what is right and good or correct and proper; wrong headed

Totally depraved is how God sees US, not how we see ourselves. The doctrine of total depravity says that man is as bad off as he can be, which may not always be manifested in conduct but is made manifest in every other way (opinions, ideology, desires, etc)

Unregenerate man is the natural man, the unbeliever. He oversteps the bound of decency God has set for man. In his natural state he is:
Full of iniquity – that which is altogether wrong
Wicked – the outward expression of his evil nature
Evil (in man) – that which opposes the goodness and holiness of God
Ungodly – lacks respect and reverence for God 2 Tim 3: 2-5
Lawless – is in open contempt of divine law
Disobedient – unwillingness to be led or guided in the ways of trut
Iniquitous – altogether wrong
In Error – gone astray from the bounds of decen
Deceitful - Jer 17:9
Hard Matt 19:8
Inclined to wickedness Is 32:6
Unstable in all his ways James 1:18
They distort the word to their own destruction 2 Peter 3;16

Reprobate (those who are ordained to damnation) stay in their natural state and perish.

Spiritually dead – the natural man cannot receive the things of God because they are spiritually discerned (1 Cor 2:14) when Adam died spiritually for that first sin, all mankind died with him, and is imputed with Adam’s sin. Unless a man is regenerated in his spirit (made alive), he will perish.

Under Condemnation – Adam’s sin is imputed to all men, making all men born under condemnation for that sin. Romans 5: 12, 19
(judgement arose from ONE transgression resulting in condemnation Rom 5: 16)



the things that proceed out of the hearts of the unregenerate man and defile him: (Mark 7: 20-23)
evil thoughts Adulteries sensuality
fornications deeds of coveting envy
thefts wickedness slander
murders deceit pride
FOOLISHNESS

Rom 3:10 there is none who is righteous, no not one
Is 17:9 the heart is deceitful above all else and is desparately sick
Ecc 9:3 the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil
Rom 7: 18 in the flesh dwells no good thing
2 Tim 3:8 some men are reprobate concerning the truth

REPROBATE – adokimos – unapproved, rejected, castaway, worthless, reprobate (Strong’s)

Men ordained to damnation (Webster’s)
So, how is a "natural" man guilty? Can he change himself, can he do anything, can he will good or do good?
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,824
1,059
113
#80
What does that aronym of Calvin stand for now that we have the right language spelling? LOL

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
Else pay the wage of our own sin