Can a Christian lose their salvation? Unsure.

[newbirth]

which is better,

to place your faith in self, and fear losing salvation. (which is what you must do. No one can place faith in God and fear losing salvation. because their faith would not be in Christ.)

or place faith in God, and know he will continue to perfect you till the day of Christ? As he promised.

This excuse that a person who does not fear losing salvation will fall and live however he wishes is just plain hogwash and a lie of satan.

One can not have faith in God, and understand how much of a sinner he really is (which brings him to christ to begin with) and even have a desire to live in sin. If one desires to live in sin, they have not repented and trusted in Christ, and is not saved period.

OSAS is true, because its faith is in Christ and his work.

anyone who does not believe this, places faith in Self and not God.

because your faith is not based on obedience....
Hebrews 5:9

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

[SeaBass]

Dude, do you ever read anything?

Jesus said in John 6 they did not believe even as they walked with him (as his disciples)

that is all anyone needs to know.

Jn 6:66 "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."

Jn 6:67 "Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?"

So why would Jesus ask His apostles "will ye also go away" if He knew that were impossible for them to do so?

If eternal security were true and losing salvation were impossible then Jesus is essentially asking the apostles "will ye do the impossible and go away also?"

If eternal security were true, Jesus would have known it and not ask a senseless question.

 

[SeaBass]

So you are still lost in your self righteousness.

All who are saved have received the earnest of the Holy Spirit of promise. Eph 1:12-14

John 14-15 Jesus promises us the Comforter who is the Holy Spirit. Apart from Him how shall we know the with understanding the Word of God?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Nothing but false straw man here for no one I have seen has said they can be saved by self-righteousness.

One IS saved by submitting to GOD's righteousness, Rom 10:3.

 

[SeaBass]

Um Nope.

James said if anyone SAYS they have faith but HAS ZERO WORKS. he is not saved.

He is not contradicting paul.

Yes, zero works = not saved.

 

[SeaBass]

Then he never lost his salvation, because he still had his fathers blood in him. Losing blessings is not the same as losing salvation. as I proved with the passage which said his rewards would be burned. yet he himself would still be saved (yet another passage you refuse to acknowledge.

So a Christian can go and spend his money on harlots and still be saved.

And if he never lost his salvation then why does the father call him "lost"?

 

[newbirth]

So what you are saying. Is that Saved can mean eternal deliverance, or sin paid for, or entrance to Heaven, or can mean just plain being saved from a bad situation.

So are you saying that all the verses that teach he that endures to the end you are choosing to pick (Not eternal deliverance) (Not sin paid for) (Not entrance to Heaven) but you are choosing to believe they mean (just being saved from a bad situation?

So tell me, if Saved can mean any one of those things you mentioned above, why do you choose to believe it is just from a bad situation. If i believe saved in those verses means eternal deliverance, which you testify "saved" can indeed mean that. that how can you say i am incorrect? my point is if you say saved can mean any one of those four things, why do you choose to believe saved to mean the last thing you mentioned? tell me why it can't mean any one of the first things you mentioned.

^i^

because that would mean OSAS is not truth....

 

[newbirth]

So you are still lost in your self righteousness.

All who are saved have received the earnest of the Holy Spirit of promise. Eph 1:12-14

John 14-15 Jesus promises us the Comforter who is the Holy Spirit. Apart from Him how shall we know the with understanding the Word of God?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

 

[SeaBass]

That's a pretty silly and trivial remark.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (Joh 10:27-28 KJV)

28 κἀγὼ ζωὴν αἰώνιον δίδωμι αὐτοῖς· καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, καὶ οὐχ ἁρπάσει τις αὐτὰ ἐκ τῆς χειρός μου. (Joh 10:28 BYZ)

Ive never met anybody who argues with the greek grammar. Kago I tell you... Zooen....life ....aioonion..... eternal [everlasting--unto ageless ages)] ...I give to you. "and he shall not not be destroyed for the age [καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα].

Its pretty clear to me...once saved always saved. The grammar does not lie. There is a double negative being used for emphasis.

Wallace in his greek grammar translates as follows:
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]δίδωμι αὐτοῖς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]I give them eternal life, and they will not at all perish.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Therefore according to your own standard the book of life passages must be interpreted in the light of the clearly grammatical and exegetical teaching of John 10.

Verse 27 shows that one must hear and follow (Both verbs present tense) to qualify ans one of Chris'ts sheep.

It is Christ's sheep that God is holding in His hand. So what happens if one quits hearing and following Christ? He no longer qualifies as one of Christ's sheep. Yet will God unconditionally given him eternal life anyway, unconditionally continue to hold him in his hand anyway? No, the unfaithful man removes himself from God's hand.

The two sides of salvation are;
1) man's faithfulness to God
2) God's faithfulness to man

Those that are faithful to God in their hearing and following Christ God will be faithful to them giving them eternal life.

The problem is that Eternal Securists leave out verse 27 about man's faithfulness and pull out of context just the verses that speak about God's faithfulness and then they add the idea to the context that God's faithfulness is based upon eternal security when it's not. God being faithful to man is based upon man being faithful to God. No verse teach God has an obligation to remain faithful to those that become unfaithful to Him.

Therefore as long as the sheep CONDITIONALLY remain faithful in their hearing and following they shall never perish. The "never perishing" is CONDITIONAL upon the sheep continuing to hear and follow Christ and is not UNconditonal.

 

[newbirth]

Then he never lost his salvation, because he still had his fathers blood in him. Losing blessings is not the same as losing salvation. as I proved with the passage which said his rewards would be burned. yet he himself would still be saved (yet another passage you refuse to acknowledge.

Can you please answer this question....if God is the author of eternal salvation to them that obey him....is he also the author of eternal salvation to them that disobey him???
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

[SeaBass]

Therefore as long as the sheep CONDITIONALLY remain faithful in their hearing and following they shall never perish. The "never perishing" is CONDITIONAL upon the sheep continuing to hear and follow Christ and is not UNconditonal.

Addendum:

Jn 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

The verb "believeth" is present tense denoting an ongoing, sustained belief, not something done for just a moment or sporadically.

The "not perishing" is conditional upon one maintaining a present tense belief, with "should not perish" being in the subjunctive mood.

If one therefore quits believing he should perish.

 

[jeff_peacemkr]

Jn 6:66 "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."

Jn 6:67 "Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?"

So why would Jesus ask His apostles "will ye also go away" if He knew that were impossible for them to do so?

If eternal security were true and losing salvation were impossible then Jesus is essentially asking the apostles "will ye do the impossible and go away also?"

If eternal security were true, Jesus would have known it and not ask a senseless question.

EXACTLY. remember most of his disciples walked away from him..... he only ever had a few disciples.... (comparatively to the wide road --- the NARROW ROAD is , according to JESUS himself, narrow, to life, and FEW find it.... ANYWHERE ANYTIME !!!)

 

[DiscipleDave]

which is better,

to place your faith in self, and fear losing salvation. (which is what you must do. No one can place faith in God and fear losing salvation. because their faith would not be in Christ.)

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

So then it is a good thing to fear God. The problem with this last days generation is they do not fear God at all. Is it not written the beginning of knowledge is to fear God. There is no knowledge today because today nobody fears God (well few do)

or place faith in God, and know he will continue to perfect you till the day of Christ? As he promised.

Sounds like the easy and broad path that leads to destruction. Easy Christianity is the narrow and difficult path that leads to life everlasting. If a person merely places faith in God and knows God will continue to perfect them without them having to do nothing at all, sound extremely easy and not difficult at all. Its like saying well as long as you start the race. God will see to it that you finish the race. lol. know you not that not all that claim Jesus as their Savior and Lord will enter into Heaven. Did Jesus not say Himself, many will say to me in that day Lord, Lord have we not done ______, and __________, and __________ in your name, and what does He say to them, I (Jesus Christ) Do not know you because you practice (live in) sin. Easy Christianity is not the narrow and difficult path that is extremely hard to be on, let alone to find it. But those who beleive in easy Christianity are indeed on the wide and broad path that leads to destruction, all the while thinking they are on the path that leads to eternal life, there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This excuse that a person who does not fear losing salvation will fall and live however he wishes is just plain hogwash and a lie of satan.

i agree. nobody should fear losing their Salvation, They should live in Christ day by day, one day at a time. Look to Him for Strength and power against any temptation that comes. i am SAVED, i do not fear that i will lose my Salvation even though that is a real possibility IF I LET IT. i am confident that Jesus will help me, and guide me, and lead me, in His Will. i pray for His help he is there. i pray for his strength when a temptation comes upon me, and He helps me not do that temptation. Does this mean i can never stop seeking Him and His help. If i stop seeking His help when i am tempted, it will not be long i will be living in sins again, be in a backsliden condition, and if i were to die or killed in that backsliden condition, i will not have access to eternal life, because i freely chose to deny Christ so i could sin. i did not seek Him to help me not to sin, i wanted to sin, Any time a person knowingly and willingly commits a sin, they indeed have denied Christ. Jesus is saying on the one hand "don't do it, it is sinful" but you are saying on the other hand, "I want to do it, I will repent afterwards" How have you not denied Christ?
i do not fear that i will lose my Salvation, even though that is a possibility, i have confidence that as long as i look to Him to help, i know that He will help me overcome every temptation that comes my way.

One can not have faith in God, and understand how much of a sinner he really is (which brings him to christ to begin with) and even have a desire to live in sin. If one desires to live in sin, they have not repented and trusted in Christ, and is not saved period.

Know you not that anyone who knowingly and willingly commits a sin, desires to commit that sin? Don't get me wrong what you say above is True "If one desires to live in sin, they have not repented and trusted in Christ, and is not Saved period" Even if they claim they are SAVED. Tell me, How many claim to be SAVED yet they knowingly and willingly commit sin, that is to say they desire to commit sin and do sin, Tell me are they still SAVED even though they claim they are SAVED? According to you they are NOT SAVED if they desire to sin, which is True. So how many claim to be SAVED yet continue to desire to sin, are they still SAVED just because they claim with their mouths they are SAVED?

OSAS is true, because its faith is in Christ and his work.

Are you suggesting that every single person who has faith in Christ and His work, is Saved? So then if a person has faith in Christ and His work, Yet they continue to desire to sin, are they still SAVED. You can't have it both ways eternally-grateful. You say a person is Truely Saved if they have faith in Christ and His Work, you also said a person who desires to sin is NOT SAVED. So then if a person has faith in Christ and His work, yet they desire to commit sins, is that person SAVED or NOT? They claim to be SAVED because of their faith in Christ and His work, but their actions (desire to sin) shows where there heart is. This is why James said Faith and Works go hand in hand. i can have all the faith in Christ and His work. THAT ALONE does not save a person, it Faith and Works go hand in hand. So a person who claim to be SAVED because they have Faith in Jesus and His works, yet they are not abiding in the Word of God, are not SAVED, even though they have faith in Jesus and His works, because his faith is not hand in hand with works, which prove his faith. You said it above, those who desire to sin are not Saved. please read my article on Faith or Works or Both.

anyone who does not believe this, places faith in Self and not God.

i do not believe Faith alone is enough. Scriptures also confirms that. you say all a person has to do is have faith in Jesus Christ and His work, and you seem to thing that is enough, how is that not FAITH ONLY? Faith only is NOT enough.

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

DiscipleDave said

Sounds like the easy and broad path that leads to destruction. Easy Christianity is the narrow and difficult path that leads to life everlasting.

Meant to say:

Sounds like the easy and broad path that leads to destruction. Easy Christianity is NOT the narrow and difficult path that leads to life everlasting.

^i^

 

[notuptome]

Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

John 20:31 But these are written that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God and that believing ye might have life through His name.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled ye believe in God believe also in Me.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Thank you for losing your own argument so graciously.

When do we receive the Holy Spirit? The moment we believe, yes?

What is the Holy Spirit (other than the Third Person of the Trinity)? He is our seal " ... in Him (Christ)," (Ephesians 1:13), right?

So faith must be obedience, given your quote of Acts 5:32, because upon faith, we are granted His presence within us, and we are sealed by Him in Christ -- σφραγίζω, meaning "marked, hidden away (as a sealed letter)," and even "sealed for security from Satan."

So tell me, how can the sovereign work of Christ through the Holy Spirit be undone by us? Impossible. You may as well claim a letter can, from the inside, unseal the envelop it is in and climb out. That is the image you must create, given this image of how the Holy Spirit has sealed us in Christ. Ludicrous, right? So is "lost salvation."

 

[notuptome]

DiscipleDave said

Meant to say:

Sounds like the easy and broad path that leads to destruction. Easy Christianity is NOT the narrow and difficult path that leads to life everlasting.

^i^

Mathew 11 Jesus said His yoke is easy. Who are you yoked together with?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[wattie]

You say: "the words aren't the most important thing". (Wattie)

Jesus says: [SUP]17 [/SUP]Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. (John17:17)

Yah this verse John 17:17.. isn't about asking Jesus for salvation.

Look at Romans 10:10 for attitude of the heart..

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
And yah.. sometimes confession isn't about asking for salvation..that's true. Salvation isn't always about receiving eternal life either.. but look at the chapter.

-------- For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The main point being here..

Many scriptures such as John 3:16 speak about believing on Jesus for salvation. John 3:16 also speaks about being given eternal life. Other scriptures speak about being given eternal life.

The Holy Spirit is also referred to as sealing someone unto the day of redemption. Other verses also speak of this seal on the individual.

So.. believing on Jesus who then seals someone by giving them the Holy Spirit is entirely scriptural.

This is the same thing as asking Christ into your heart-

1) Because the asking-- is believing
2) Because Christ DOES come into an individuals heart through the Holy Spirit.. another word for heart-- is the person's soul or spirit.

 

[1joseph]

Yah this verse John 17:17.. isn't about asking Jesus for salvation.

Look at Romans 10:10 for attitude of the heart..

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
And yah.. sometimes confession isn't about asking for salvation..that's true. Salvation isn't always about receiving eternal life either.. but look at the chapter.

-------- For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The main point being here..

Many scriptures such as John 3:16 speak about believing on Jesus for salvation. John 3:16 also speaks about being given eternal life. Other scriptures speak about being given eternal life.

The Holy Spirit is also referred to as sealing someone unto the day of redemption. Other verses also speak of this seal on the individual.

So.. believing on Jesus who then seals someone by giving them the Holy Spirit is entirely scriptural.

This is the same thing as asking Christ into your heart-

1) Because the asking-- is believing
2) Because Christ DOES come into an individuals heart through the Holy Spirit.. another word for heart-- is the person's soul or spirit.

Amen, brother. I asked and He came. That was 43 years ago. The Holy Spirit is still with me and our relationship just keeps getting better. Hallelujah!

 

[DiscipleDave]

Thank you for losing your own argument so graciously.

When do we receive the Holy Spirit? The moment we believe, yes?

What is the Holy Spirit (other than the Third Person of the Trinity)? He is our seal " ... in Him (Christ)," (Ephesians 1:13), right?

So faith must be obedience, given your quote of Acts 5:32, because upon faith, we are granted His presence within us, and we are sealed by Him in Christ -- σφραγίζω, meaning "marked, hidden away (as a sealed letter)," and even "sealed for security from Satan."

So tell me, how can the sovereign work of Christ through the Holy Spirit be undone by us? Impossible. You may as well claim a letter can, from the inside, unseal the envelop it is in and climb out. That is the image you must create, given this image of how the Holy Spirit has sealed us in Christ. Ludicrous, right? So is "lost salvation."

Do you think satan is real? that he is a real entity? Do you think him an idiot? He is called the God of this world for a reason, he is great at what he does. Tell me something, if a person is sealed from satan once they accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord, and there is no way satan can ever get to that person or win that person back to his side of the war, tell me, Why does he most assuredly tries? i mean if a person is sealed and satan can't have him/her, why do we see that satan comes after those who accept Christ all the more? i mean if it were True that you are sealed and satan can't have that person, why doesn't satan realize that Truth? Why does he come after those he knows he can't have? Do you think he is ignorant, and does not know that they are sealed by God and he can't have them? lol, he knows the Bible better than we do.
If it were True that a person was sealed and satan could not get that person, there would absolutely be no need for satan to tempt that person to live in sins any more, would there be, i mean they are sealed and it doesn't matter if they live in sins or not because they are sealed. satan would concentrate his warfare on those who are not yet sealed, would he not? Why would he concentrate on causing those who are sealed to continue to live in sin, if it does not benefit him in the slightest?
You do error not knowing the Truth. Those who accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord are the biggest threat to satan and his kingdom, that is why when a person is SAVED, satan will immediately send his minions to get that person, to tempt them to continue to live in sins, to get them hooked on sinning, to get them to believe false doctrines that permit a person to continue to live in sins and still go to Heaven.
satan knows OSAS is a lie, he is the one that came up with it, it is a brilliant strategy to get the SAVED to continue to live in sins and still think they are Heaven bound, it is a brilliant strategy to make the SAVED think they can't lose it, no matter what they do, therefore do what they want and still be Heaven bound.
Know you not there is a battle that is going to happen at the end of the thousand years when satan is released, he is trying to get as many souls as he can for that day of battle against God and His Saints. satan is not an idiot, he is not going to waste his time trying to get a soul if that soul can't be gotten. satan comes after the SAVED more than he does the unsaved, because they are unsaved, they are his already. Its the SAVED that he is after, that he comes at full speed, to get them to live in sin no matter how long, or how difficult it may be. Because SAVED or not, if satan can keep a person in living in sins, he knows that Jesus will not take them, and they will belong to satans army in the end. So what can satan do to keep people living in sins all the while think they are still going to Heaven, what can he do? Oh i know, its called OSAS. So now because of that doctrine, a person can claim to be SAVED, yet continue to live in sin and they are still OK, still SAVED, still Heaven bound, exactly where satan wants them to be. living in sins all the while thinking they are on the narrow and difficult path that leads to life everlasting, living in sins all the while thinking they are going to Heaven, living in sin all the while thinking they are SAVED. yes Brilliant strategy and sad to say, working extremely well with those in the last days generation.
i will tell you the Truth and i do not lie, if i am lying let all the diseases of the entire world come upon me and all those that i love, and i pray that in the name of Jesus Christ, that Anyone who believes Once Saved they are Always Saved are deceived and do not know the Truth but believe a lie. Behold i have warned you. Those who believe OSAS yet disregard or make void what i have just said, will one day stand before Jesus Himself and hear Jesus say "My servant DiscipleDave, told you the Truth and you rejected it, you were not like the Bereans and went and searched the Scriptures to see if what he was saying was true or not, you did not believe the Truth because the Truth is not in you" Then i am sure He will reveal to you all the other false doctrines that you held on too and were unwilling to stop believing.
i have told you the Truth, i have not told you anything that is contrary to Scriptures, only contrary to what YOU believe is the Truth, you can right now read my article on OSAS, be like the Bereans, not like the people in the last days.

^i^

 

[dcontroversal]

I usually don't like to get into the cross fire in the threads aha. And I am honestly not fighting with you but..your post here caught my attention. Where at in the bible does it say even those who are lost are God's sons? Cause I'm dumb and need to hear differen't view points to learn.

I made a direct quote.....Second the bible teaches that God is the FATHER of ALL.<------Look this up and you will see that God has created all men through Adam and is the Father of ALL! Not to mention that God is the God of the LIVING and the DEAD!