Can Christ disobey the command given by the LORD?

[posthuman]

((cont'd))

let me put a list to kind of keep track, and add some things as i go:

• Ezekiel 28
  • Satan was in an Eden that is described very differently than the one in Genesis 2-3
  • he was on the mountain of God, established and anointed, then he sinned, and was cast to the ground
• Genesis 3, Job 1-2 & 1 Peter 5
  • Satan wanders the earth, seeking to devour men, cursed, eating dust, crawling on his belly
• John 8:44
  • Jesus says Satan was a murderer from the beginning
  • 'beginning' is somewhat cryptic, as Ezekiel describes Satan as not-a-murderer when he was created, but transitioning to one at some point later. Jesus therefore must be referring to something else as 'the beginning' -- Genesis 1 perhaps?
    • per Job 38:4-7, the angels are already created, present, and watching when God laid the foundations of the earth
    • this must include Satan, called a cherub in Ezekiel 28
      • is Satan rejoicing with them? or already full of sin & violence within?
    • is Job 38 referring to Genesis 1:1, the beginning in which God created the heavens and the earth?
  • this seems to put Satan's fall at or near the creation of the universe, and his origin before it
• Luke 10
  • Christ says He saw Satan fall. in the context, the disciples are amazed at being granted authority over demons
  • the preceding things in our list indicate that Jesus is not saying Satan only now is fallen to the ground, when he says this, that fall being brought about by what the disciples are doing..
  • instead it seems Christ is telling them not to be amazed ((corroborated by His saying, rejoice instead that your names are written in heaven)) - that Satan is indeed fallen. i.e defeated?
• Revelation 12
  • have to bear in mind that Hebrew literature is generally indifferent to chronological order - they employ parallelism, chiastic structure, and repeated motifs in their writing, especially poetic or visionary books, so they write in order to communicate a main idea, often rephrasing it and contrasting it with its opposite, and this is the prevalent thing, not 'order of events'
  • John's gospel & Revelation are particularly enigmatic in the NT. they have a high degree of symbolic organization, filled with numerological allusions. it should not surprise us if he is not giving a chronological record
  • all this to say, Revelation 12 is not necessarily taking place 'in order' as it is found in the book. it is entirely possible, not at all out of the ordinary, if Revelation 12 suddenly switches from the distant future to the distant past without giving the reader any kind of 'warning' that it is about to timeshift. that's simply how Jews write.
  • in Revelation 12:
    • war is described in heaven
    • Michael, not God, not Christ, fights with Satan, here described as a dragon
      • a little weird that God didn't simply destroy him with a word?
      • why send Michael and the other angels to deal with Satan and his angels? if with a single thought God can put an end to all of this? how marvelous His ways!!
      • oh wait this is off topic ha ha
    • the dragon is cast out, and takes 1/3 of the stars ((should go without saying these are symbolic for angelic host)) with him
    • when did this happen? it is not necessarily being written in sequential order
  • Satan is cast out of heaven -- to the earth.
    • this doesn't mean he no longer has any access to heaven, but that heaven is no longer his home
    • he takes 1/3 of the angels down with him; he is not alone
      • this is probably the meaning of 'the abundance of his traffic/trade' in Ezekiel 28, as applicable to the angelic realm and through parallelism the king of Tyre in that day ((Tyre was a great trading city, a port on the Mediterranean renowned for its ships))
      • in angelic terms, what is Satan's "traffic" and who is he trading with? how does he persuade 1/3 of the angels to join him? are those angels deceived? were all angels deceived, but 2/3 repent? just how powerful is Satan, in angelic terms?
  • when did this happen? preceding verses indicate Satan is already a murderer by the time Genesis 3 happens, possibly by the time Genesis 1 happens.
  • Revelation 12 therefore seems to be referring to a creation or pre-creation ((creation in terms of the physical animal/vegetation (((humans are animals too, see Ecclesiastes 3))) universe))
    • per Ezekiel 28 ((Eden made up of "fiery stones" instead of trees???)) there may be a significant gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 -- or even a gap between the creation of the angelic host and Genesis 1:1, i.e., just like Christ in John 8 describes Satan as 'from the beginning' a murderer, but Ezekiel 28 describes a beginning before the advent of the violent, murderous heart of Satan, therefore there are multiple 'beginnings' -- just like that, when Genesis 1:1 says "in the beginning" it may not be referring to the beginning of all things, but the beginning of the world in which man lives
    • after all the Bible is a book written to mankind. to reveal Christ to us.
    • per Job 38 & Proverbs 8, there certainly appears to be a spiritual creation before the physical one we are familiar with -- and God is before all things ((see Colossians 1:17 -- Christ is before all things. Christ is God. this is necessary to believe and comprehend or none of my posts will make sense, nor will any of the Bible be properly understood. lol not like my posts are 'scripture' but you get it. that is a fact with primacy))
• what about John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11 etc?? "the prince of this world" cast down "now" ??
  • we may address all verses with such language by saying, yes, Satan is the 'god of this age' ((2 Corinthians 4:4)) and described as the prince ((funny thing about Daniel 10:13 and the nutcase JW & SDA who think Michael is god???)) of the world -- but Christ came to redeem the world. God, manifest in flesh, is completely addressing the supposed 'problem of sin' and destroying the power of Satan in the sight of all the angelic host and all of mankind.
    

 

[posthuman]

@kleronomos

OK!

that's a lot, i know

and i know i have left out and overlooked many things, because i am an idiot and a fool, and forgetful, and because the present circumstances in my life made me unable to totally devote myself to concentrating on this conversation, so that there was a big break in-between the things i wanted to try to put together this morning for you, and also just an overall 'my brain ain't exactly at full capacity & even if it was wow i am not up to the task of fully understanding God's word & drawing things out to say from it))

but, overarching premise:
i am pretty sure Satan sinned and fell at least before Genesis 3 and possibly between Genesis 1:1 & Genesis 1:2, if not even before Genesis 1:1

between Genesis 1:1 & Genesis 1:2 is for my current thinking, the most likely spot to place that event 'on a timeline'

i wrote all these things this morning to give you evidence from scripture, to explain where my reasoning is coming from, to present the idea that all of the animal/vegetable/humankind creation is a witness to the angelic host ((who precede us)) of the majesty & righteousness & justice & merciful lovingkindness of God, answering the 'great question' that the sin of Satan, The Lie of Satan, poses.

there is a metaphysical 'problem of sin' ((not 'how can sin exit if God is good' per se)) that Satan brings as an accusation against God, the 'accusation' being that God cannot solve sin; He is culpable; Satan accuses God of evil.
the physical universe, man, the other living souls ((animals)), and plantlife, are being presented in the sight of all the angelic beings as an answer to Satan's accusations.
we are saved, not only for our own sake, not just to the glory of God, but in a real sense, as a lesson to the angels, who saw Satan fall, who went through war in heaven, who have this burning accusation Satan has made prevalent in their minds, and are either faithful or unfaithful.

that's what i am thinking

 

[posthuman]

((cont'd))

let me put a list to kind of keep track, and add some things as i go:

• Ezekiel 28
  • Satan was in an Eden that is described very differently than the one in Genesis 2-3
  • he was on the mountain of God, established and anointed, then he sinned, and was cast to the ground
• Genesis 3, Job 1-2 & 1 Peter 5
  • Satan wanders the earth, seeking to devour men, cursed, eating dust, crawling on his belly
• John 8:44
  • Jesus says Satan was a murderer from the beginning
  • 'beginning' is somewhat cryptic, as Ezekiel describes Satan as not-a-murderer when he was created, but transitioning to one at some point later. Jesus therefore must be referring to something else as 'the beginning' -- Genesis 1 perhaps?
    • per Job 38:4-7, the angels are already created, present, and watching when God laid the foundations of the earth
    • this must include Satan, called a cherub in Ezekiel 28
      • is Satan rejoicing with them? or already full of sin & violence within?
    • is Job 38 referring to Genesis 1:1, the beginning in which God created the heavens and the earth?
  • this seems to put Satan's fall at or near the creation of the universe, and his origin before it
• Luke 10
  • Christ says He saw Satan fall. in the context, the disciples are amazed at being granted authority over demons
  • the preceding things in our list indicate that Jesus is not saying Satan only now is fallen to the ground, when he says this, that fall being brought about by what the disciples are doing..
  • instead it seems Christ is telling them not to be amazed ((corroborated by His saying, rejoice instead that your names are written in heaven)) - that Satan is indeed fallen. i.e defeated?
• Revelation 12
  • have to bear in mind that Hebrew literature is generally indifferent to chronological order - they employ parallelism, chiastic structure, and repeated motifs in their writing, especially poetic or visionary books, so they write in order to communicate a main idea, often rephrasing it and contrasting it with its opposite, and this is the prevalent thing, not 'order of events'
  • John's gospel & Revelation are particularly enigmatic in the NT. they have a high degree of symbolic organization, filled with numerological allusions. it should not surprise us if he is not giving a chronological record
  • all this to say, Revelation 12 is not necessarily taking place 'in order' as it is found in the book. it is entirely possible, not at all out of the ordinary, if Revelation 12 suddenly switches from the distant future to the distant past without giving the reader any kind of 'warning' that it is about to timeshift. that's simply how Jews write.
  • in Revelation 12:
    • war is described in heaven
    • Michael, not God, not Christ, fights with Satan, here described as a dragon
      • a little weird that God didn't simply destroy him with a word?
      • why send Michael and the other angels to deal with Satan and his angels? if with a single thought God can put an end to all of this? how marvelous His ways!!
      • oh wait this is off topic ha ha
    • the dragon is cast out, and takes 1/3 of the stars ((should go without saying these are symbolic for angelic host)) with him
    • when did this happen? it is not necessarily being written in sequential order
  • Satan is cast out of heaven -- to the earth.
    • this doesn't mean he no longer has any access to heaven, but that heaven is no longer his home
    • he takes 1/3 of the angels down with him; he is not alone
      • this is probably the meaning of 'the abundance of his traffic/trade' in Ezekiel 28, as applicable to the angelic realm and through parallelism the king of Tyre in that day ((Tyre was a great trading city, a port on the Mediterranean renowned for its ships))
      • in angelic terms, what is Satan's "traffic" and who is he trading with? how does he persuade 1/3 of the angels to join him? are those angels deceived? were all angels deceived, but 2/3 repent? just how powerful is Satan, in angelic terms?
  • when did this happen? preceding verses indicate Satan is already a murderer by the time Genesis 3 happens, possibly by the time Genesis 1 happens.
  • Revelation 12 therefore seems to be referring to a creation or pre-creation ((creation in terms of the physical animal/vegetation (((humans are animals too, see Ecclesiastes 3))) universe))
    • per Ezekiel 28 ((Eden made up of "fiery stones" instead of trees???)) there may be a significant gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 -- or even a gap between the creation of the angelic host and Genesis 1:1, i.e., just like Christ in John 8 describes Satan as 'from the beginning' a murderer, but Ezekiel 28 describes a beginning before the advent of the violent, murderous heart of Satan, therefore there are multiple 'beginnings' -- just like that, when Genesis 1:1 says "in the beginning" it may not be referring to the beginning of all things, but the beginning of the world in which man lives
    • after all the Bible is a book written to mankind. to reveal Christ to us.
    • per Job 38 & Proverbs 8, there certainly appears to be a spiritual creation before the physical one we are familiar with -- and God is before all things ((see Colossians 1:17 -- Christ is before all things. Christ is God. this is necessary to believe and comprehend or none of my posts will make sense, nor will any of the Bible be properly understood. lol not like my posts are 'scripture' but you get it. that is a fact with primacy))
• what about John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11 etc?? "the prince of this world" cast down "now" ??
  • we may address all verses with such language by saying, yes, Satan is the 'god of this age' ((2 Corinthians 4:4)) and described as the prince ((funny thing about Daniel 10:13 and the nutcase JW & SDA who think Michael is god???)) of the world -- but Christ came to redeem the world. God, manifest in flesh, is completely addressing the supposed 'problem of sin' and destroying the power of Satan in the sight of all the angelic host and all of mankind.

oh!

nearly forgot.


also in re: Revelation 12, the dragon swept 1/3 of the stars down with him ((vis-a-vis 1/3 of the angels fell with Satan))
-- consider Genesis 6, the nephilim, the sons of God ((typically a reference to angels, see again Job 1-2)), consider Jude 1:6, consider 1 Peter 3:19-20
the picture is that fallen angels interacted and influenced mankind toward wickedness, that they were imprisoned, etc
when did they fall? prior to Genesis 6, clearly.
when did they fall? in the time period Revelation 12 is describing; Satan dragged them down as he was cast out of heaven, at the conclusion of the war in heaven

QED

((i hope lol))

 

[NotmebutHim]

To me, this question is a non-starter.

Jesus IS God, so He cannot disobey His Father. Jesus said Himself that He does whatever He sees His Father do.

 

[kleronomos]

Acts 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

17 And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;
18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.

If I understand you correctly, you believe this VERSE and others similar to it, ARE MORE TRUE TO THE SPIRIT OF THE TRUTH THAN THE DIRECTLY WORDED COMMAND OF GOD, CORRECT? And because you read of these times when Christ came and spoke to 'a person', the DOOR is completely opened for the BIGGEST MIRACLE EVER TO BE PERFORMED (and the one without one without a single specific word written about it, aka the removal of 2.5 billion people from the earth) before the death and judgment promised ever man to 'keep them from wrath'?

Does anything change when you read of Jesus PRAYING 'they not be taken from the world but be kept from evil'? Does that change the sense at all, for you specifically? Doesn't that prove that even remaining in the world He can/does keep us FROM EVIL?

1 Thess 4, 'the pre trib' is somehow MAGICALLY ONLY seen by some, but not by others, such as ME. How is that possible? I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, Emmanuel, born in the flesh who walked among us, was crucified, raised up to the right hand of God, the Savior of whomsoever would. I have studied the words of God as MY ONLY INTEREST for many years and this subject itself in great detail and all I ever receive from GOD is more and more verses that point in the absolute opposite direction. AGAIN, even that goes against WHAT IS WRITTEN AND PROMISED.

My highest priority is to follow the SPIRIT OF WHAT IS WRITTEN everywhere in the words of God and no matter how many times I try to SEE this spirit of pre trib rapture all I get is those who have died are returning with Christ to meet ALL those who have remained alive through the trib and are changed to meet Him as He is returning to set up HIS KINGDOM on earth. (can't have a bunch of humans running around with 'the grave and death' being taken out of the picture can we?)

Which creates ANOTHER/same problem. ALL. IF all the alive and remaining are changed.....who is left for the trib

1 Thess 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

WOULDN'T this require ALL BELIEVERS, INCLUDING those who came to faith during the Trib of Satan, to be delivered from the wrath to come? How could this be 'changed' to pre trib or does it happen twice?

OR do you believe those who go through Tribulation without taking the mark ALSO go through the wrath that is coming?

AND SINCE the 'wedding' doesn't even take place until AFTER the JUDGMENT....????

Christs 'assessments' of the church where a few are about to lose their place, another made Him want to spit them out, and another was teaching things he hated, do you understand WHY it is impossible for some of us to SEE THE CHURCH being taken to heaven and given eternal life? Yet you see 'the church' as be given unconditional immortality, just 'claim' to be a Christian.


HOW CAN death and judgment BE appointed to everyone and then have it SKIPPED for billions? Does nothing about that strike you as incongruous at all? Especially knowing GOD WHO DOESN'T CHANGE and is not a respecter of persons?


TRUE, I do see that as being OK for the last and final day when Christ returns to set up the Kingdom, but that is because THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAINING have been judged worthy because they didn't take the mark of the beast and so they PROVE THEMSELVES as following the commands of God. They had to study and put on the gospel armor to withstand the fiery darts of Satan. They didn't believe any FALSE DOCTRINES that would have ALLOWED them to be deceived.



Acts 22:6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.

Acts 22:7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?




Acts 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.


3708. horaó
Strong's Concordance
horaó: to see, perceive, attend to
Original Word: ὁράω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: horaó
Phonetic Spelling: (hor-ah'-o)
Definition: to see, perceive, attend to
Usage: I see, look upon, experience, perceive, discern, beware.
HELPS Word-studies
3708 horáō – properly, see, often with metaphorical meaning: "to see with the mind" (i.e. spiritually see), i.e. perceive (with inward spiritual perception).

[The aorist form (eidon), is discussed at 1492 /eídō, "see." The future tense, and middle-passive form, are discussed under 3700 /optánomai, "see."]

 

[DanielLL]

to see with the mind

If it was only in "the mind" why does it say: it "shone from heaven [...] round about" him?

Acts 22:6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.

These are physical descriptions. He physically fell to the ground, and was blinded by it, and what about those who were with him:

Acts 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

Did they also, "saw with the mind"? Why does it say: they "saw indeed", if it was just a vision.
Normally when it is a vision, Scripture tells us about it for example in Daniel:

Daniel 8:2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.

But Scripture didn't tell us it was a vision, that is an assumption and it not written. There is no reason to believe it was a vision "in the mind". There is no mention of visions, that was added to the Word.

PS: I'm not pre-trib, just comenting on OP, remember Jesus at this time is sitting at the Right Hand of the Father..

 

[kleronomos]

Great! Hope it isn't a modalism type of belief in the Trinity.


My question answers your question. I suspect you know that. As for using the verbiage you require, you say you believe in the Trinity, good! Show me where that word is. Or is it the CONCEPT you believe because Scripture says there is a Trinity?

I'll spell it out for you.


Revelation 1:20

New King James Version



20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

And here are the Lamps, WITHOUT the lampstands, in the Throneroom of God, in Heaven, BEFORE the tribulations and wrath takes place:

Revelation 4:5

New King James Version

5 And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices. Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.


So there remains no more Holy Spirit-filled Church. There will be a false, dead church. The true Church is with the Lord, in Heaven, before the wrath of God starts.

Ephesians 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ


Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Colossians 2:9 For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

4138. pléróma ►
Strong's Concordance
pléróma: fullness, a filling up
Original Word: πλήρωμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pléróma
Phonetic Spelling: (play'-ro-mah)
Definition: fullness, a filling up
Usage: (a) a fill, fullness; full complement; supply, patch, supplement, (b) fullness, filling, fulfillment, completion.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 4138 plḗrōma – "sum total, fulness, even (super) abundance" (BAGD). See 4130 (plēthō).



John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.








John 1:16 And of His fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.


Numbers 6:23 Speak unto Aaron and unto his sons, saying, On this wise ye shall bless the children of Israel, saying unto them,

Numbers 6:24 The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

Numbers 6:25 The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: THE FATHER

Numbers 6:26 The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. THE SON

Numbers 6:27 And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel, and I will bless them. THE HOLY SPIRIT


NOW please SHOW ME 'the pre trib rapture' where I CAN SINK MY TEETH INTO IT.

 

[kleronomos]

20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

And here are the Lamps, WITHOUT the lampstands, in the Throneroom of God, in Heaven, BEFORE the tribulations and wrath takes place:

SO IS THIS HEAVEN IN 95ad or Heaven on THE DAY OF THE LORD which come AFTER THE TRIBULATION?

OR IS THIS NOT ONLY BEFORE TRIB AND WRATH BUT EVEN BEFORE THE LAMB TOO?

Are you saying that YOU AND I WERE THERE AT THAT TIME? And NOW ARE THERE 7 SEPARATE churches 'pre trib raptured' or IS IT JUST THE 'one BODY OF CHRIST'?


Please, spell it out for me again.

 

[tourist]

How would it be possible for there to be a 'pre trib rapture' if Christ can't leave until after Satan is kicked out?

Christ has ascended into heaven. He already took his leave of earth until the time of his return.

 

[kleronomos]

there is a metaphysical 'problem of sin' ((not 'how can sin exit if God is good' per se)) that Satan brings as an accusation against God, the 'accusation' being that God cannot solve sin; He is culpable; Satan accuses God of evil.
the physical universe, man, the other living souls ((animals)), and plantlife, are being presented in the sight of all the angelic beings as an answer to Satan's accusations.

I understand what you wrote and believe what is written and I don't think I saw anything you posted I couldn't find written myself. But here, I do not know where Satan accused God of not being able to solve sin. We presently have a different understanding of sin and its place in the plans of God and why it is 'allowed'.

Thank you for sharing with me your knowledge. I think I MIGHT be able to help with the problem, with a possible 'thinking' direction change. Then again, you may have already thought this but just in case....

Just as we will be rewarded for our deeds, so they will be punished for theirs. GOD needs them to chose also. Judgments. Rewards or punishment. HOW could anyone be sentenced to death, if there is no witness against them? How could we be perfected without tribulation? IT IS ALL ABOUT THE END GOAL AND how we get there. It was going to either be OF CHOICE or ROBOTS. Choice requires both sides. If everyone would look to the 'joy' to come, LIKE CHRIST DID AT THE CRUCIFIXION, the events that happened in our lives today would enact the changes we needed to make so much quicker than they presently do.

I would much rather have pain and sorrow today for recompense from God tomorrow rather than no pain and suffering today and no recompense from God tomorrow. Almost makes one want to go and help God get what is needed for the sentencing for them and the 'white linen' for us. Perspective comes from the flesh or comes from the spirit. Isn't Christ crucified Satans death sentence? Until then it was only humiliation.

John 13:21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
22 Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake.
23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.
24 Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.
25 He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?

26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.

27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.


28 Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him.
29 For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.
30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.

31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in Him.

32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.


John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name: those that thou gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


Doesn't it seem like Satan was standing there WAITING to see who he would be possessing? Thank God for keeping all those mysteries hidden....

 

[kleronomos]

Christ has ascended into heaven. He already took his leave of earth until the time of his return.

Agreed

 

[DavidTree]

First, off the context of Pslams 110:1 is not saying Jesus can't move from a place. Jesus made His enemies His footstool at the Resurrection For HE rose as King of kings and Lord of lords. Jesus came to Peter in Acts, Jesus came to Paul in Acts. Jesus is not limited other than in context to HIS Body.
When Jesus said it is finished Jesus rose from the dead and was seen 40 days on the earth. Then He was taken up into Heaven In addition, if we read the Word of God Jesu was standing at the death of Stephen, Oops I guess he was to remain sitting?

This idea of Jesus having to be forced to sit on a throne is ridiculous. Jesus is in perfect line with the will of the Father. The rapture is appearing of Christ in the air the return is Christ coming to the earth at the mount. of Olives.

That's three Comings of the LORD and the Scripture only states, clearly, of TWO.
Only TWO Comings/Appearings = Matt ch24, Acts ch1, Heb ch9, 1 Thess & 2 Thess, 1 John ch2 -ch3, 1 Cor ch15, Romans ch8, Revelation

 

[kleronomos]

q

1. Christ is doing the work of our Great High Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary: But Christ being come an High Priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the Holy Place, having obtained eternal redemption for us... And having an High Priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. (Heb 9:11,12; 10:21,22)

YES, of the GREAT HIGH PRIEST IN HEAVENLY SANCTUARY, but you have him LEAVING AND COMING TO THE EARTH TO DO SOME WORK DON'T YOU? WELL, THE AIR OF THE EARTH.

Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Mediator, not TRAVEL GUIDE TO HEAVEN

3. Christ will come momentarily at the Resurrection/Rapture in order to perfect the saints and give them glorious immortal bodies: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord... Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Thess 4:16,17; 1 Cor 15:51,52)

again lets get 'the day' being spoken of correct and not put it somewhere else
2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

4. Christ will then judge the works of the saints -- at the Judgment Seat of Christ -- and dispense rewards to those who deserve them: But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ... So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God... For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. (Rom 14:10,12; 2 Cor 5:10)

SO HOW COULD A RAPTURE TO IMMORTALITY TAKE PLACE BEFORE BEING FOUND WORTHY OF THAT IMMORALITY? THAT'S RIGHT, THEY JUDGE THEMSELVES WORTHY BEFORE CHRIST DOES


did you miss that 'at the last trump'? that would be the trump that is the FURTHEREST ONE OUT, LAST, FINAL, END OF THE AGE, TRUMP OF GOD, SEVENTH TRUMP.

From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. (Heb 1:3; 10:12,13)

CORRECT AGAIN, BUT DOESN'T SAY OR HINT AT 'UNTIL PRE TRIB RAPTURE' , does it?

 

[kleronomos]

5. Christ will then be married to His Bride who will become the Lamb's Wife: And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. (Rev 19:6-9)

AND WHEN DOES THIS TAKE PLACE? PRE TRIB? NO PRE WRATH? NO PRE THE LORDS DAY? NO AFTER ALL THOSE THINGS.

Revelation 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.


3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

 

[kleronomos]

It is only AFTER all of this that Christ will make His enemies His footstool: And I saw the beast [the Antichrist], and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. (Rev 19:19-21)

WHEN DOES GOD MAKE HIS ENEMIES HIS FOOTSTOOL FROM/IN HEAVEN?



AND WHEN DOES CHRIST MAKE HIS ENEMIES HIS FOOTSTOOL FROM/ON EARTH?



Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[DavidTree]

q


YES, of the GREAT HIGH PRIEST IN HEAVENLY SANCTUARY, but you have him LEAVING AND COMING TO THE EARTH TO DO SOME WORK DON'T YOU? WELL, THE AIR OF THE EARTH.

Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Mediator, not TRAVEL GUIDE TO HEAVEN






again lets get 'the day' being spoken of correct and not put it somewhere else
2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.



SO HOW COULD A RAPTURE TO IMMORTALITY TAKE PLACE BEFORE BEING FOUND WORTHY OF THAT IMMORALITY? THAT'S RIGHT, THEY JUDGE THEMSELVES WORTHY BEFORE CHRIST DOES


did you miss that 'at the last trump'? that would be the trump that is the FURTHEREST ONE OUT, LAST, FINAL, END OF THE AGE, TRUMP OF GOD, SEVENTH TRUMP.




CORRECT AGAIN, BUT DOESN'T SAY OR HINT AT 'UNTIL PRE TRIB RAPTURE' , does it?

How dare you justify the truth by the Truth - this could lead to disruption of well established controlled thought patterns........

 

[DavidTree]

((cont'd))

let me put a list to kind of keep track, and add some things as i go:

• Ezekiel 28
  • Satan was in an Eden that is described very differently than the one in Genesis 2-3
  • he was on the mountain of God, established and anointed, then he sinned, and was cast to the ground
• Genesis 3, Job 1-2 & 1 Peter 5
  • Satan wanders the earth, seeking to devour men, cursed, eating dust, crawling on his belly
• John 8:44
  • Jesus says Satan was a murderer from the beginning
  • 'beginning' is somewhat cryptic, as Ezekiel describes Satan as not-a-murderer when he was created, but transitioning to one at some point later. Jesus therefore must be referring to something else as 'the beginning' -- Genesis 1 perhaps?
    • per Job 38:4-7, the angels are already created, present, and watching when God laid the foundations of the earth
    • this must include Satan, called a cherub in Ezekiel 28
      • is Satan rejoicing with them? or already full of sin & violence within?
    • is Job 38 referring to Genesis 1:1, the beginning in which God created the heavens and the earth?
  • this seems to put Satan's fall at or near the creation of the universe, and his origin before it
• Luke 10
  • Christ says He saw Satan fall. in the context, the disciples are amazed at being granted authority over demons
  • the preceding things in our list indicate that Jesus is not saying Satan only now is fallen to the ground, when he says this, that fall being brought about by what the disciples are doing..
  • instead it seems Christ is telling them not to be amazed ((corroborated by His saying, rejoice instead that your names are written in heaven)) - that Satan is indeed fallen. i.e defeated?
• Revelation 12
  • have to bear in mind that Hebrew literature is generally indifferent to chronological order - they employ parallelism, chiastic structure, and repeated motifs in their writing, especially poetic or visionary books, so they write in order to communicate a main idea, often rephrasing it and contrasting it with its opposite, and this is the prevalent thing, not 'order of events'
  • John's gospel & Revelation are particularly enigmatic in the NT. they have a high degree of symbolic organization, filled with numerological allusions. it should not surprise us if he is not giving a chronological record
  • all this to say, Revelation 12 is not necessarily taking place 'in order' as it is found in the book. it is entirely possible, not at all out of the ordinary, if Revelation 12 suddenly switches from the distant future to the distant past without giving the reader any kind of 'warning' that it is about to timeshift. that's simply how Jews write.
  • in Revelation 12:
    • war is described in heaven
    • Michael, not God, not Christ, fights with Satan, here described as a dragon
      • a little weird that God didn't simply destroy him with a word?
      • why send Michael and the other angels to deal with Satan and his angels? if with a single thought God can put an end to all of this? how marvelous His ways!!
      • oh wait this is off topic ha ha
    • the dragon is cast out, and takes 1/3 of the stars ((should go without saying these are symbolic for angelic host)) with him
    • when did this happen? it is not necessarily being written in sequential order
  • Satan is cast out of heaven -- to the earth.
    • this doesn't mean he no longer has any access to heaven, but that heaven is no longer his home
    • he takes 1/3 of the angels down with him; he is not alone
      • this is probably the meaning of 'the abundance of his traffic/trade' in Ezekiel 28, as applicable to the angelic realm and through parallelism the king of Tyre in that day ((Tyre was a great trading city, a port on the Mediterranean renowned for its ships))
      • in angelic terms, what is Satan's "traffic" and who is he trading with? how does he persuade 1/3 of the angels to join him? are those angels deceived? were all angels deceived, but 2/3 repent? just how powerful is Satan, in angelic terms?
  • when did this happen? preceding verses indicate Satan is already a murderer by the time Genesis 3 happens, possibly by the time Genesis 1 happens.
  • Revelation 12 therefore seems to be referring to a creation or pre-creation ((creation in terms of the physical animal/vegetation (((humans are animals too, see Ecclesiastes 3))) universe))
    • per Ezekiel 28 ((Eden made up of "fiery stones" instead of trees???)) there may be a significant gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 -- or even a gap between the creation of the angelic host and Genesis 1:1, i.e., just like Christ in John 8 describes Satan as 'from the beginning' a murderer, but Ezekiel 28 describes a beginning before the advent of the violent, murderous heart of Satan, therefore there are multiple 'beginnings' -- just like that, when Genesis 1:1 says "in the beginning" it may not be referring to the beginning of all things, but the beginning of the world in which man lives
    • after all the Bible is a book written to mankind. to reveal Christ to us.
    • per Job 38 & Proverbs 8, there certainly appears to be a spiritual creation before the physical one we are familiar with -- and God is before all things ((see Colossians 1:17 -- Christ is before all things. Christ is God. this is necessary to believe and comprehend or none of my posts will make sense, nor will any of the Bible be properly understood. lol not like my posts are 'scripture' but you get it. that is a fact with primacy))
• what about John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11 etc?? "the prince of this world" cast down "now" ??
  • we may address all verses with such language by saying, yes, Satan is the 'god of this age' ((2 Corinthians 4:4)) and described as the prince ((funny thing about Daniel 10:13 and the nutcase JW & SDA who think Michael is god???)) of the world -- but Christ came to redeem the world. God, manifest in flesh, is completely addressing the supposed 'problem of sin' and destroying the power of Satan in the sight of all the angelic host and all of mankind.

Jesus, when stating "the beginning" is only referring to Genesis since we are not permitted(at this present time) to know of things before the Creation other then what is written(Job, Eze, Isa).
Thus the first murder took place in the Garden = John ch8
Satan is the Serpent in the Garden and there is only one Satan, but many fallen angels = Revelation

 

[posthuman]

Thus the first murder took place in the Garden = John ch8

if we count the deception & corruption of 1/3 of the angels as murder, would that be 'first' ?
i.e. before Woman?
did the father of lies lie to the angelic host, before mankind was created?

 

[DavidTree]

if we count the deception & corruption of 1/3 of the angels as murder, would that be 'first' ?
i.e. before Woman?
did the father of lies lie to the angelic host, before mankind was created?

As pertaining to us, at present, we are mortals whereby our mortal temporary life on earth can be murdered as far as what God, again at present, desires for us to focus on = Love they neighbor as thyself..........

However, there is more for us who belong to HIM to learn and know after we leave this realm.

Were the angels 'murdered' when Satan used his glory to lure them into rebellion against the Most High - I could see that.

 

[CS1]

It is just another THING that takes what is written and says

'its ok if we tell everyone 'THAT ISN'T WHAT HE MEANT, IT IS ONLY WHAT HE SAID aka what is written'.


ME, I DON'T BRING ANYTHING TO THE DISCUSSION. IF GOD SAID 'SIT UNTIL', I TAKE THAT UNDER ALL CIRCUMSTANCES TO MEAN SIT UNTIL. I could of course be like Cain and just do it my way, but GOD wasn't very happy with that, so I don't. If you said God returns and there is an event that takes place before His feet hit the mount, I couldn't agree more. I you didn't, then I wish you would have.

that is your opinion, and you are welcome to it. I am not here to prove me right or you wrong, you can do that on your own .