Can deity die?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
199
63
[/COLOR]
His body was in the grave. that does not mean his spirit did not go elsewhere


Again. I disagree. Paul said to be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord. We do not wait until we are ressurected to go to paradise. We go to parades to await our ressurection. When our bodies are renewed and we are united with these new bodies.

agree completely here :)
So - are you saying Jesus didn't really die because his "spirit" lived on?

Paul is comparing our earthly house, (flesh) which will dissolve; then we would be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven; and while we are at home in this earthly body we are absent from the Lord but we are "willing rather to be absent from the body (earthly body) and be present with the Lord". IOW, we would rather be absent from this earthy body and be present with the Lord.

:)
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
613
113
70
Alabama
There was a parable about cutting off your hands , shall i go and do that ?:confused:

was Abraham resurrected at that time Jesus gave the parable ? Or is he awaiting a resurrection ?
Yes, Abraham is still awaiting the resurrection. Jesus even records the discussion that Abraham had with the Rich man in the hadean world. Notice in verse 22, “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom." Angels are part of the realm of the unseen. It was not the body of the poor man but his soul that was carried away. The bodies of both these men are still in the ground as is confirmed in this same verse "and the rich man also died and was buried."
 
C

cjordan38

Guest
When Jesus got baptized by John he was doing what was told. He had to take every step thay man took. When Jesus came that was thenfirst split ofrom God. When The Holy Ghost Asended from heaven in the purest form of a Dove that was the second split from God. But Jesus being God they were all dwelling within him at once. John had nothing to do with Jesus reciving the Holy Ghost. John only baptized with water. Jesus baptized with fire. No one else in the bible could domthat before Jesus. When the Holy Ghost came upon him that was the first time. When you go to heaven there is jo need for the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is your keeper. The spirit of God did dwell in the people of the OT, but thats not the Holy Ghost. Everybody has thenspiritnof God in them and Jesus comes to try and get you to come to the father but when you dont and only do wickedness then God withdraws his spirit and you are spiritually dead. Now elisha was asking for a double portionnof his spirit to be effective. When Jesus died it states hebgave up the Ghost which was the Holy Ghost. So that the Holy Ghost was free to all. Thats why the Day of Pentecost was so important because it is the First entrence of the Holy Ghost which spread throught the men of all nations.
 
Nov 26, 2013
737
2
0
Yes, Abraham is still awaiting the resurrection. Jesus even records the discussion that Abraham had with the Rich man in the hadean world. Notice in verse 22, “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom." Angels are part of the realm of the unseen. It was not the body of the poor man but his soul that was carried away. The bodies of both these men are still in the ground as is confirmed in this same verse "and the rich man also died and was buried."
this is just a parable one cannot dip their finger in water to touch those in hell I believe Jesus was just making a point just as in the cutting of of your rigt hand and plucking out your eyes

When does a man get his spirit when he is born ?

Before we were born did our spirit exist in a spirit realm ?
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
man has a body , soul and spirit

1 Thessalonians 5:23

King James Version (KJV)

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord JesusChrist.
Man IS a soul and has a spirit...

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Neither functions without the other...

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Prior to the computer age this was more difficult to understand, but since knowledge is increased (Dan 12:4) we have a model with which to understand this....

A computer can be turned on but does not function without an operating system (regardless of what you might think of windows, it works after a fashion). An operating system cannot function without hardware to run on. When one installs an operating system on a computer, it functions. Damage or remove one and neither functions. Man is the same. The body (the soul) does not function without the spirit, neither can the spirit function without a body.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Are you sure you have eternal life now then why do we die ?
Accepting Jesus is to get eternal life there is a difference
Why the resurrection ?
Are you 100% you are saved if the Lord was to call you home now ?
What are the promises Abraham and David awaits ?
What is the reward Jesus is coming with ?
You must understand there are two types of deaths spoken of in scripture.

Physical death and spiritual.

I am born dead to God. At the moment of salvation, I am made alive (born again) in Christ. this new life is what Jesus calls eternal life (see John 3)


Physical death has nothing to do with eternal life. What matters is, are we "alive in Christ (eternal life)" when we die. Or have we remained dead to God when we physically die.

This is the state which matters where we spend eternity.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
Yes, Abraham is still awaiting the resurrection. Jesus even records the discussion that Abraham had with the Rich man in the hadean world. Notice in verse 22, “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom." Angels are part of the realm of the unseen. It was not the body of the poor man but his soul that was carried away. The bodies of both these men are still in the ground as is confirmed in this same verse "and the rich man also died and was buried."
It's a parable...

The Real Meaning of The Rich Man and Lazarus by Dr. Ernest Martin
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
So - are you saying Jesus didn't really die because his "spirit" lived on?


No. I am saying he died two deaths. One physical and one spiritual.

Paul is comparing our earthly house, (flesh) which will dissolve; then we would be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven; and while we are at home in this earthly body we are absent from the Lord but we are "willing rather to be absent from the body (earthly body) and be present with the Lord". IOW, we would rather be absent from this earthy body and be present with the Lord.
Yes. The moment we die, we are present with the Lord ;)
 
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
199
63
Yes, I understand that. That does not mean that the language did not have rules of punctuation. Let me show you seven different Greek texts of this verse. All seven agree with the placement of the comma before today.
ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 23:43 Greek NT: Nestle 1904
καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ Ἀμήν σοι λέγω, σήμερον μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ Παραδείσῳ.

ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 23:43 Greek NT: Westcott and Hort 1881
καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ Ἀμήν σοι λέγω, σήμερον μετ' ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ.

ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 23:43 Greek NT: Westcott and Hort / [NA27 and UBS4 variants]
καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ Ἀμήν σοι λέγω, σήμερον μετ' ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ.

ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 23:43 Greek NT: RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Καὶ εἴπεν αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, σήμερον μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ.

ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 23:43 Greek NT: Greek Orthodox Church
καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς· Ἀμήν λέγω σοι, σήμερον μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ.

ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 23:43 Greek NT: Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894
καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ, ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, σήμερον μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ.

καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ἀμήν σοι λέγω, σήμερον μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ.
Okay . . . .I said - punctuation does not change the "inspired words" . . . . .

what is it that you are trying to prove? You are not deriving any of the above from the original MSS. The above is not in running script - there are breaks and there is punctuation - not in any original MSS. Still man's addition . . .
and it's okay that we disagree here :)


 
Nov 26, 2013
737
2
0
When Jesus got baptized by John he was doing what was told. He had to take every step thay man took. When Jesus came that was thenfirst split ofrom God. When The Holy Ghost Asended from heaven in the purest form of a Dove that was the second split from God. But Jesus being God they were all dwelling within him at once. John had nothing to do with Jesus reciving the Holy Ghost. John only baptized with water. Jesus baptized with fire. No one else in the bible could domthat before Jesus. When the Holy Ghost came upon him that was the first time. When you go to heaven there is jo need for the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is your keeper. The spirit of God did dwell in the people of the OT, but thats not the Holy Ghost. Everybody has thenspiritnof God in them and Jesus comes to try and get you to come to the father but when you dont and only do wickedness then God withdraws his spirit and you are spiritually dead. Now elisha was asking for a double portionnof his spirit to be effective. When Jesus died it states hebgave up the Ghost which was the Holy Ghost. So that the Holy Ghost was free to all. Thats why the Day of Pentecost was so important because it is the First entrence of the Holy Ghost which spread throught the men of all nations.
my dear friend Jesus had the Holy Spirit from the womb

The Spirit in the shape of a dove was a sign for John that Jesus is the Son of God

Do you think that the only three times the devil tempted Jesus there after what abot before that event

What about His whole life before that as a youth ? Do you think He did not have the Holy Spirit ?

He was 12 years asking hard questions How was He abale to do that ?
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
613
113
70
Alabama
this is just a parable one cannot dip their finger in water to touch those in hell I believe Jesus was just making a point just as in the cutting of of your rigt hand and plucking out your eyes
You are making an unwarranted assumption about this parable. All of Jesus parables use pragmatic scenarios and his points are always proven buy the details of the parable. BTW, there is nothing to suggest that this is a parable. Jesus never gives names to any characters in any of his other illustrations. Not only that but Jesus is also revealing the presence of a well known historical character - Abraham. This is much different than any of his parables.

When does a man get his spirit when he is born ?
He are not told this in scripture.

Before we were born did our spirit exist in a spirit realm ?
We are not given this information either.
 
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
199
63


No. I am saying he died two deaths. One physical and one spiritual.
Oh. . . I thought is was appointed for man to die once. Okay. . . .
Yes. The moment we die, we are present with the Lord ;)
When do we put off this earthly "house" - I believe it's when this corruptible shall put on incorruptible and/or this mortal shall put on immortality. . .I thought that was when we were resurrected? If we are already there - what need is there of a resurrection?

Ummmm, what do I do with this: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. . . even so must the Son of man be lifted up - speaking of his resurrection.

 
Nov 26, 2013
737
2
0
Another thing that is highly irregular of our experience is the fact that the Rich Man was able to speak at all. Would he not more likely be screaming his head off at the terrible excruciating pain that he was being subjected to? Again, if the account is literal, we find a most impossible situation in the story. Even more than that, what does the Rich Man seek from Lazarus? It is not to drag him out of the fire, but simply to take a drop of cold water and put on his tongue. Why, the Rich Man ought to know that such a thing would not relieve his pain in the slightest! How can a drop of physical water give benefit to a spirit being (as the Rich Man would be)?

The water, if literal, would turn into steam before it could do any good.
And why did not the man ask Abraham to bring the drop of water to his tongue to cool it? Abraham was far closer to the Rich Man, or at least it looks this way because there was no conversation with Lazarus. What was so special about Lazarus that his drop of water would cool his tongue, but Abraham was not asked for any help?

I extracted this John832 because i thought it was funny but true
:)
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
7,989
1,596
113
there is also the words of peter that bear light on the same matter in acts 2;34,"David is not ascended unto the heavens",,,so at that time/time frame David had not yet been raised/resurrected but still awaited it,he was still in the grave/state of corruption(acts 2;29),,,,now this is some time after the cross and Resurrection of Jesus. Jesus as he also states in acts did not suffer corruption(flesh returning to soil) as stated by David.,,but the point is that David himself was still in the grave and not yet resurrected.

in 1st cor.15;40-52 Paul explains there are different bodies sown,,the corruptible(decays,returns to soil) and the incorruptible(raised in a state where it does not decay/return to the soil) so then a body that cannot die. this it seems is the final creature we are to be.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
You are making an unwarranted assumption about this parable. All of Jesus parables use pragmatic scenarios and his points are always proven buy the details of the parable. BTW, there is nothing to suggest that this is a parable. Jesus never gives names to any characters in any of his other illustrations. Not only that but Jesus is also revealing the presence of a well known historical character - Abraham. This is much different than any of his parables.

He are not told this in scripture.

We are not given this information either.
Well, actually there is something that proves it is a parable...

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Who is there in Luke 16, just His disciples?

Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
613
113
70
Alabama
Okay . . . .I said - punctuation does not change the "inspired words" . . . . .

what is it that you are trying to prove? You are not deriving any of the above from the original MSS. The above is not in running script - there are breaks and there is punctuation - not in any original MSS. Still man's addition . . .
and it's okay that we disagree here :)
You seem to be missing the point. The fact that the original MSS contained not breaks or punctuation does not mean that these rules were not understood. You do not seem to be well versed in the language. If you do not agree with me on this matter let me suggest that you go the B-Greek website (it is a free site) and present this question to the scholars on that site. Ask them what they think about where the punctuation belongs in this verse. I promise you, you will get a top level scholarly answer.
 
A

azbel

Guest
christ died in the flesh but his spirit lives on.he was here before time and shall always be.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
Another thing that is highly irregular of our experience is the fact that the Rich Man was able to speak at all. Would he not more likely be screaming his head off at the terrible excruciating pain that he was being subjected to? Again, if the account is literal, we find a most impossible situation in the story. Even more than that, what does the Rich Man seek from Lazarus? It is not to drag him out of the fire, but simply to take a drop of cold water and put on his tongue. Why, the Rich Man ought to know that such a thing would not relieve his pain in the slightest! How can a drop of physical water give benefit to a spirit being (as the Rich Man would be)?

The water, if literal, would turn into steam before it could do any good.
And why did not the man ask Abraham to bring the drop of water to his tongue to cool it? Abraham was far closer to the Rich Man, or at least it looks this way because there was no conversation with Lazarus. What was so special about Lazarus that his drop of water would cool his tongue, but Abraham was not asked for any help?

I extracted this John832 because i thought it was funny but true
:)
Here is another problem with Luke 16 being literal...

Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

They can see each other.

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

They can freely converse with each other.

So, let's think a bit about this. What happens to a saved mother whose unsaved son and daughter go to hell?

She can hear them shriek and scream and watch them burn for all eternity and can't do a thing to help. And these folks who purvey this nonsense would tell you that is heaven.

If that is heaven, what about this...

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Heaven will be filled with grieving, distraught mothers and fathers watching their children burn forever in firey torment.

It is a parable and this is the meaning...

Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luk 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Luk 13:29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
Luk 13:30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Including the Pharisees He was speaking to...

Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
You seem to be missing the point. The fact that the original MSS contained not breaks or punctuation does not mean that these rules were not understood. You do not seem to be well versed in the language. If you do not agree with me on this matter let me suggest that you go the B-Greek website (it is a free site) and present this question to the scholars on that site. Ask them what they think about where the punctuation belongs in this verse. I promise you, you will get a top level scholarly answer.
You are saying that they didn't have them but they used them?

C'mon, I was born at night but it wasn't last night.