Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?

[jaybird88]

And how do YOU read this:

1 John 2:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, will multiply teachers for themselves because they have an itch to hear something new.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] They will turn away from hearing the truth and will turn aside to myths.

why worry so much over what others think. Jesus never taught conform to the group, that was the pharisee way. the pharisees were the majority, was the pharisees on the correct path?
if my opinion does not conform to the majority belief its a myth? did the teachings of Jesus conform to the pharisees who were the majority?
just a thought.

 

[Quasar92]

Ok quasar, I guess I'm going to have to bring out the "big guns" on what you said here: "No, bluto! Jesus IS NOT Almighty God, which is the exclusive title of the Father. The Father and the Son are two very separate entities." I was hoping that you would come to your senses on this issue but I see you continue to want me to read your old "cut and paste" post which offer no incite except to show me that you don't know how to "exegete" Scripture properly.

Now, please look and read what Revelation 1:8 states as clear as a bell. "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, THE ALMIGHTY." Who does that refer to quasar, God the Father or God the Son? And what about Revelation 4:8, "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God THE ALMIGHTY, who was and who is and who is to come." Who's this person quasar, the Father or the Son?

And getting back to Revelation 1 please notice vs7 which comes before vs8, "Behold He is coming with the clounds and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all lthe tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. Evens so. Amen." Again quasar, is every eye going to see God the Father coming or God the Son? And you got the nerve to tell me, "You remain refuted, bluto! PS: I almost forgot to tell you that I did go to the Bible gateway site and read it. I did notice that the "titles" Mighty God and Almighty God were not on their list, can you tell me why?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

[SUP][SUP]What big guns can you muster from the empty wagon you are using, bluto!
[/SUP][/SUP]
[SUP][SUP]Rev.1:8 [/SUP]“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” This is the statement of YHWH, not of Yahshua!
[/SUP]
[SUP]J[/SUP][SUP]n.8:28 "[/SUP]So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me."

Jn.14:28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

[SUP]Jn.17:33 "[/SUP]Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Review my post 471 for the Scriptural facts!


Quasar92

 

[fredoheaven]

Of John 14:28

Generally “greater than” is to show inequality between two numbers or expression, but in order for us to understand this seeming inequality of Christ to His Father is to know first that this has nothing to do with Christ divinity. Let’s try to understand it using “line upon line and precept upon precept” Isah 28:10, 13 here is the truth:

Jesus said in v28

“Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I”

In v 12 Jesus said, (the parallel verse)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

The parallel is that both Christ says He goes unto His Father and greater than is involved in what He said. What makes the Father greater and the Christians are greater is because Jesus said, He will do what His Father says and that He will do what Christians asks aside from that Christian will do vv12-14. That’s simple and the parallel connection is correct. If the verse in contention is about divinity then we could say Christians are greater than Christ and Christian becomes god because one must be greater than Christ who is God.

Now, here are other answers to the seeming divine inequalities aside from the above posted:

1. There seems to be inequalities in the view of the mediatorial work of Christ, hence there is no other mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus 1Timothy 2:5. The mediation made by Christ allows both God and man resolves the disputes regarding the promise of eternal inheritance. Hebrews 9:15. Since then it was the Son who died for our settlement. The record states there’s no other mediator, no not the Father nor the Holy Spirit.

2. Another thing of this seemeth inequalities is best understood that the Father was in heaven and our Lord Jesus Christ was on earth when He said it. WE know in fact, Heaven is the dwelling place of God and the earth is His footstool Isa. 66:1; Matt. 5:35. Heaven in the bible is always higher and the earth is lower, so there must be inequalities.

3. Further, it is to be understood the fact of the redemptive act of Christ requires it so. It was the Son who has been sent to be our sin sacrifice that animal blood can’t satisfy. Hebrews 9:23-28. It is the precious blood of Christ, indeed God’s blood. Acts 20:28

So, even Christ said it and that’s what the Bible says, however, Christ saying it to mean his inequalities does not concern His divine nature so I am okay with what Valiant posted and said which is actually the remarkable explanation of the “greater than” statement of Christ. Christ emptied Himself. Philippians 2:5

Thank you.

 

[Quasar92]

Of John 14:28

Generally “greater than” is to show inequality between two numbers or expression, but in order for us to understand this seeming inequality of Christ to His Father is to know first that this has nothing to do with Christ divinity. Let’s try to understand it using “line upon line and precept upon precept” Isah 28:10, 13 here is the truth:

Jesus said in v28

“Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I”

In v 12 Jesus said, (the parallel verse)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

The parallel is that both Christ says He goes unto His Father and greater than is involved in what He said. What makes the Father greater and the Christians are greater is because Jesus said, He will do what His Father says and that He will do what Christians asks aside from that Christian will do vv12-14. That’s simple and the parallel connection is correct. If the verse in contention is about divinity then we could say Christians are greater than Christ and Christian becomes god because one must be greater than Christ who is God.

Now, here are other answers to the seeming divine inequalities aside from the above posted:

1. There seems to be inequalities in the view of the mediatorial work of Christ, hence there is no other mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus 1Timothy 2:5. The mediation made by Christ allows both God and man resolves the disputes regarding the promise of eternal inheritance. Hebrews 9:15. Since then it was the Son who died for our settlement. The record states there’s no other mediator, no not the Father nor the Holy Spirit.

2. Another thing of this seemeth inequalities is best understood that the Father was in heaven and our Lord Jesus Christ was on earth when He said it. WE know in fact, Heaven is the dwelling place of God and the earth is His footstool Isa. 66:1; Matt. 5:35. Heaven in the bible is always higher and the earth is lower, so there must be inequalities.

3. Further, it is to be understood the fact of the redemptive act of Christ requires it so. It was the Son who has been sent to be our sin sacrifice that animal blood can’t satisfy. Hebrews 9:23-28. It is the precious blood of Christ, indeed God’s blood. Acts 20:28

So, even Christ said it and that’s what the Bible says, however, Christ saying it to mean his inequalities does not concern His divine nature so I am okay with what Valiant posted and said which is actually the remarkable explanation of the “greater than” statement of Christ. Christ emptied Himself. Philippians 2:5

Thank you.

That is a king sized piece of rationalizing. The Father is greater than the son, according to the Scriptures, period! As I previously posted. Jesus did not become the Son of God /God the Son until documented in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:32, 35.

[SUP]J[/SUP][SUP]n.8:28 "[/SUP]So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me."

Jn.14:28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

[SUP]Jn.17:33 "[/SUP]Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Review my post 471 for the Scriptural facts


Quasar92

 

[valiant]

Hi Fellows,
　
It seems like you have used all of the verses that are found to support your belief, but it is mostly exchanging the same ones back and forth.

We do not need to select verses. The whole NT, correctly interpreted, accepts that Jesus is God.
　

As I said before, trinitarians believe what they have been taught

We believe it because the NT teaches it!!

,

and we accept that, --- but if you are interested in history, the faulty trinity doctrine didn't come into being till the 4th century. --- Starting in 325, and being expanded in 381.

In fact the trinity was taught by Tertullian in 200 AD but we accept the Triunity of God, not because of Tertullian, but because the Apostles made it clear.

--- We get it, --- you are adamant about your faith, --- that is okay for you.

We are adamant for the truth taught by the Apostles.

I find it interesting that often in conversation some would raise their voice, --- but sometimes in a forum like this, they would use heavy black or red printing to emphasize their feelings. --- Often though, the ones who are aggitated by what should be an amiable discussion, --- are the ones that feel threatened, or insecure in their faith

.

I don't need colours to teach the truth,

　

In Post 815, the writer said:
Quote: "
People who think Jesus is their Lord and Savior are worshiping another god."

He is just a fool. Jesus is quite clearly LORD and GOD and SAVIOR. 2 Peter 1.1

However, Peter said to the Pharisees in Acts 4:
10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
--- You see, that was the way I was saved, by "Believing in God, and accepting Jesus Christ as my Savior and Lord."
　

If you reject Jesus Christ as God and Savior you are LOST. The Father has failed to reveal it to you.

And about the trinity, --- I had written in Post 801 that "None of the language of trinity is found in Scripture," therefore the question of the topic can be answered.
　

Your blindness to the truth reveals that you are not One of His.

Can the Trinity be Biblically proven? --- And, the answere is "No."

The answer is YES. You blind yourself to the truth over a word.

-

-- But many great theologians believe it and you learned it from them, --- So if you have accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord, then that is what will save you, --- not your belief in a faulty doctrine.
　

If He is not God His death will be of no avail. It is no longer sufficient. You have accepted a false Christ.

 

[valiant]

That is a king sized piece of rationalizing. The Father is greater than the son, according to the Scriptures, period!

where does the Scripture say PERIOD????? As verse 12 shows He was only greater while Jesus was on earth.

As I previously posted. Jesus did not become the Son of God /God the Son until documented in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:32, 35.

He was the SON from eternity, sharing the glory He had with Him before the world was (John 17.5). He was merely NAMED as being the Son of God where you mention,

[SUP]J[/SUP][SUP]n.8:28 "[/SUP]So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me."

As the Son of MAN He spoke from the Father, from Whom He had come (John 3.13)

Jn.14:28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

Because He was operating on earth, as a man.

[SUP]Jn.17:3 "[/SUP]Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

He immediately spoke of the glory He had with the Father before the world was John 17/5

 

[valiant]

why worry so much over what others think. Jesus never taught conform to the group, that was the pharisee way. the pharisees were the majority, was the pharisees on the correct path?
if my opinion does not conform to the majority belief its a myth? did the teachings of Jesus conform to the pharisees who were the majority?
just a thought.

THE PHARISEES were a minority !!!

 

[Quasar92]

where does the Scripture say PERIOD????? As verse 12 shows He was only greater while Jesus was on earth.



He was the SON from eternity, sharing the glory He had with Him before the world was (John 17.5). He was merely NAMED as being the Son of God where you mention,




As the Son of MAN He spoke from the Father, from Whom He had come (John 3.13)



Because He was operating on earth, as a man.



He immediately spoke of the glory He had with the Father before the world was John 17/5

Meaningless opinion without a shred of Scriptural support is worthless. Where did you obtain your qualifications to teach the Bible? What I previously posted remains as qualified eschatology, exegesis and hermeneutics!


Quasar82

 

[VCO]

why worry so much over what others think. Jesus never taught conform to the group, that was the pharisee way. the pharisees were the majority, was the pharisees on the correct path?
if my opinion does not conform to the majority belief its a myth? did the teachings of Jesus conform to the pharisees who were the majority?
just a thought.

2 Corinthians 13:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Finally, brethren, rejoice, be made complete, be comforted, be like-minded, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.

Ephesians 4:11-13 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
[SUP]13 [/SUP] until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Romans 10:14-17 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

2 Timothy 2:24-25 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
[SUP]25 [/SUP] with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

1 Timothy 2:12 (NKJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

1 Timothy 3:2-3 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.

Hebrews 5:12 (RSV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need some one to teach you again the first principles of God's word. You need milk, not solid food;

Proverbs 5:13-14 (GW)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] I didn't listen to what my teachers said to me, nor did I keep my ear open to my instructors.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] I almost reached total ruinin the assembly and in the congregation.”

2 Timothy 4:3 (GW)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear.

1 Peter 3:8 (HCSB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Now finally, all of you should be like-minded and sympathetic, should love believers, and be compassionate and humble,

 

[Placid]

Hi Wattie,

Quote from Post 851:
If Jesus is God.. you have a trinity.
Why? Because plainly the Father and the Holy Spirit are also fully God.

　
Response: --- As I said in Post 801, none of the language of trinity is in Scripture, and the big mistake is that trinitarians believe that the Word and Jesus are the same,
The difference is that the Word is the Spiritual Son of God from heaven who came down to earth to indwell Jesus who was born on earth, and was 'called' the Son of God. Luke 1:
34 Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?"
35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be 'called' the Son of God."
　
It speaks of the heavenly Son of God, 'the Word,' in 1 John 5:
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. (They work in harmony, and they each have a different role to play in creation and salvation.)
It says in John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God.
3 All things were made through Him (the Word) and without Him nothing was made, that was made.
　
Let's look at this in Genesis 1:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep (the waters). And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
　
In this case it said God created, --- then the Spirit of God (or Spirit of Life), began to bring life in the sea.
Then God, the Designer, said, "Let there be light" --- And the command 'let there be' is a call to action for the Word to provide the suitable light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.
--- Notice this, that God 'saw the light, that it was good.'
This shows that the Three were active in their different roles from the beginning.
　
In the Three, the Father was the Designer and Architect, the Word was the builder, and the Holy Spirit gave life, Genesis 1:
26 Then God (Elohim) said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;"
--- Okay, Let's suppose that the Father made the design, --- and the Word (through whom all things were created) fashioned the body from dust, according to the design.
2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."
--- So after the body was made from the dust --- the Holy Spirit breathed into the Body the 'Breath of life,' --- and man became a living being.
--- In this way the Three were involved in all that God designed, but The Word and the Spirit, were as 'Servants' to God, to follow the designs of the Father.
　
The Spiritual Word came to earth (and the Word indwelt the body of Jesus), John 1:14 and 18, --- but the physical human Jesus was born from His mother Mary, and would have the DNA of Mary in His body, would He not? So Jesus could not have existed before His mother Mary, could He?

--- There is no co-equal trinity. --- Just the Three witnesses in heaven that represent God, and have different roles as they manifested God on earth, through Jesus.
The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit were all Spiritual Beings and could not be seen by men, so the Word and the Holy Spirit were Manifested through Jesus, who could be seen. --- Jesus had the power to do miracles and heal the sick because the Word and the Holy Spirit indwelt Him.

But Jesus was not God. --- He had to be human to shed His blood for the sins of the people, as it says in 2 Corinthians 5:
21 For He made Him (Jesus) who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

 

[Placid]

Hi Bluto,

　

Quote from Post 852:

Now, I have said the following hundreds of times and that is this: "I do not believe trinitarianism is a REQUIREMENT for salvation. It is the RESULT of salvation. Why do I say that placid? Because you cannot know Jesus Christ and somehow miss the fact that He is God. YOu cannot have experienced the presence of the Holy Spirit of God and somehow miss that He is God. And of course we know that the Father is God. Please read Romans 8:9-11 for proof of what I'm saying.

Furthermore, I am not following what men have taught me but what the Bible has taught me. The Bible makes it crystal clear that there are three and only three persons who are identified as God in all the ways that the Bible identifies God. Remember, I just said there are only three persons who are identified as God and from that Tertullian coined the word "trinity" as a word of convience Please read my very first post of this thread I started.




Response: --- Oops, quote:
"Furthermore, I am not following what men have taught me but what the Bible has taught me."


Actually since I wrote in Post 801 that 'none of the language of trinity is in the Bible,' you couldn't have read it there. --- But, it's okay, you believe what you've learned from the writings of others, and you don't rely on it for salvation, --- so you can be the best Christian you can, in loving others and spreading the Gospel message of salvation. --- God honors our faithfulness to Him.



You asked if I read your first post, which I did, --- then you asked on what basis I said the 'trinity was a faulty doctrine' and I was being quite gentle to say 'faulty' because since the concept of trinity is not in the Bible, there is 'no basis' for trinity, itself.

--- You say 'trinity' is a word of convenience from 'tri-unity,' --- just like 'University' is a word of convenience for 'Unity in diversity,' --- but the diversity is still there, is it not?

There are either the Three in heaven in perfect union, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, --- with no co-equal trinity, --- or you worship 3 gods. --- This is why Muslims say that trinitarians are 'polytheists,' --- (and they like to apply that to all Christians). --- They believe that Jesus was a Prophet, and He is called the Messiah several times, --- but when the trinity is mentioned, they say, "There is only One God." --- So that makes it harder to witness to Muslims.

--- Then the faulty statements that come from this faulty doctrine.

"From the Trinity Doctrine" it says

Quote: "All things necessary for our faith and life are either expressly set down in Scripture or may be deduced by good and necessary consequence from Scripture."


--- (That means men added to the doctrine what they wanted the Scripture to say.)


And this is what happened, they had to add words in their explanation of trinity, which made God a mystery, rather than the One we pray directly to. --- In adopting this Catholic doctrine, you have to find Scripture verses that seem to match what you want them to say. --- But the Apostles knew nothing of the concept of trinity, so it wasn't taught in the Scripture. --- Therefore, those who study the Scripture only, believe the Scriptures as they were written. --- There is no offense in us believing differently, is there? --- But we are introduced to Jesus Christ in the Scriptures and told to follow Him in John 5:
[SUP]24 [/SUP]“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him (God) who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."　

A Catholic statement says "Unless you believe that Jesus is God you cannot be saved."

　

In Post 815, the writer said:

Quote:
"People who think Jesus is their Lord and Savior are worshiping another god."


--- So these are 'trickle down' statements from the faulty doctrine, are they not?

 

[RBA238]

Bumped for rba. nt

When Jesus Died on The Cross and called out to "The Father" (The Eternal One Spirit).he was showing his humanity side being in a Fleshly body. Jesus had the same...The Word "SON" Signifies The Manifested Flesh of The Invisable
God. The Son Role was because God/ The Father was the only one Sinless, and be our sin sacrifice...As "The Father", and a total Spirit he could not Shed Human Blood for our sins, that is why created the Sonship role..(Read Hebrews Chapter 9, for the explanation)..

 

[bluto]

Look rba, it's rather obvious to me and probably others that your uninformed when it comes to Biblical hermanuetics, that is the interpretation of Scripture. I want you to know I "DO NOT" say this as a put down or to "degrade" you in any way, so please don't take it that way.

I'm saying this on the basis of what you wrote because there are some inconsistences. For instance, Jesus Christ showed His humanity when He incarnated as a man. Secondly, the Word "SON" not only signifies His humanity but it also signifies His "Divinity." This one of the reasons Jesus Christ Himself ofter referred to Himself as the "Son of Man" and as the "Son of God." He is human on His mothers side and deity on His Fathers side.

Thirdly, you said, "The Son Role was because God/The Father was the only one Sinless, and be our sin sacrifice" Look what Hebrews 4:15 states, "For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet WITHOUT SIN." Or 1 John 3:5, "And yo uknow that He/Jesus Christ appeard in order to take away sins; AND IN HIM THERE IS NO SIN." Notice rba that it was the Son of God who appeared, not God the Father.

And yes, I have read Hebrews 9 and I noticed you "plucked" out Hebrews 9:14 regarding the "eternal Spirit, what do you think that means rba? In closing, how are you going to reconcile the fact that Jesus Christ was/is sinless with you saying only God the Father was sinless? And to you I ask, do you believe that Jesus Christ is God the Father or a distinct person from God the Father, i.e. God the Son?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[RBA238]

Look rba, it's rather obvious to me and probably others that your uninformed when it comes to Biblical hermanuetics, that is the interpretation of Scripture. I want you to know I "DO NOT" say this as a put down or to "degrade" you in any way, so please don't take it that way.

I'm saying this on the basis of what you wrote because there are some inconsistences. For instance, Jesus Christ showed His humanity when He incarnated as a man. Secondly, the Word "SON" not only signifies His humanity but it also signifies His "Divinity." This one of the reasons Jesus Christ Himself ofter referred to Himself as the "Son of Man" and as the "Son of God." He is human on His mothers side and deity on His Fathers side.

Thirdly, you said, "The Son Role was because God/The Father was the only one Sinless, and be our sin sacrifice" Look what Hebrews 4:15 states, "For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet WITHOUT SIN." Or 1 John 3:5, "And yo uknow that He/Jesus Christ appeard in order to take away sins; AND IN HIM THERE IS NO SIN." Notice rba that it was the Son of God who appeared, not God the Father.

And yes, I have read Hebrews 9 and I noticed you "plucked" out Hebrews 9:14 regarding the "eternal Spirit, what do you think that means rba? In closing, how are you going to reconcile the fact that Jesus Christ was/is sinless with you saying only God the Father was sinless? And to you I ask, do you believe that Jesus Christ is God the Father or a distinct person from God the Father, i.e. God the Son?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

When I stated "Only God was sinless" i meant that The Body Jesus Was created By The Holy Spirit which is also God, "The Father" Because Bluto the Bible Clearly tells us there is only One Lord/ One God/ One Spirit. Yes, The Body Jesus, The Son, never sinned either although he was tempted on all points like all humanity is. God had full Spiritual Control of his Spirit 24/7.

Common man cannot go sinless all his/ her lives. As i have explained bluto The "Father" and The "Son" are One and the Same Lord/God both in Spirit and his manifested human Flesh.

 

[RBA238]

Bluto; ever read Genesis Chapter 18? Here we read where The Lord and two of his Angels visited Abraham and His Wife Sarah. God and his Angels even sat in the shade and ate a meal given to them by Sarah. Remember, The Lord was a Theopony ( Instant Human Manifestation) He ate food like humans do but he was a Spirit in Human Form, like his Angels with The Lord. How else could they eat and swallow the food they were eating??

 

[bluto]

Uh oh rba! It's interesting that you should bring up Genesis 18 so here is my question? Genesis 18:1 says the Lord appeard to him/Abraham and then you say this is a "Theophany" even though you "Theopony." Is it possbile that this appearance could have been a "Christophany?" I say that because according to Jesus Christ Himself He said at John 5:37, "And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form." Here Jesus says God the Father cannot be seen.

Then there is John 6:46, "Not that any man hath seen the Father, except He who is from God, He hath seen the Father. One more, John 1:18, "No man has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him." In other words rba, Jesus Christ is the only visble/human manifestation of God the Father because the Father cannot physically be seen. And I'm saying it was Jesus Christ who appeared to the Old Testament saints as the angel of the Lord.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[wattie]

Hi Wattie,

Quote from Post 851:
If Jesus is God.. you have a trinity.
Why? Because plainly the Father and the Holy Spirit are also fully God.

　
Response: --- As I said in Post 801, none of the language of trinity is in Scripture, and the big mistake is that trinitarians believe that the Word and Jesus are the same,
The difference is that the Word is the Spiritual Son of God from heaven who came down to earth to indwell Jesus who was born on earth, and was 'called' the Son of God. Luke 1:
34 Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?"
35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be 'called' the Son of God."
　
It speaks of the heavenly Son of God, 'the Word,' in 1 John 5:
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. (They work in harmony, and they each have a different role to play in creation and salvation.)
It says in John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God.
3 All things were made through Him (the Word) and without Him nothing was made, that was made.
　
Let's look at this in Genesis 1:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep (the waters). And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
　
In this case it said God created, --- then the Spirit of God (or Spirit of Life), began to bring life in the sea.
Then God, the Designer, said, "Let there be light" --- And the command 'let there be' is a call to action for the Word to provide the suitable light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.
--- Notice this, that God 'saw the light, that it was good.'
This shows that the Three were active in their different roles from the beginning.
　
In the Three, the Father was the Designer and Architect, the Word was the builder, and the Holy Spirit gave life, Genesis 1:
26 Then God (Elohim) said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;"
--- Okay, Let's suppose that the Father made the design, --- and the Word (through whom all things were created) fashioned the body from dust, according to the design.
2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."
--- So after the body was made from the dust --- the Holy Spirit breathed into the Body the 'Breath of life,' --- and man became a living being.
--- In this way the Three were involved in all that God designed, but The Word and the Spirit, were as 'Servants' to God, to follow the designs of the Father.
　
The Spiritual Word came to earth (and the Word indwelt the body of Jesus), John 1:14 and 18, --- but the physical human Jesus was born from His mother Mary, and would have the DNA of Mary in His body, would He not? So Jesus could not have existed before His mother Mary, could He?

--- There is no co-equal trinity. --- Just the Three witnesses in heaven that represent God, and have different roles as they manifested God on earth, through Jesus.
The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit were all Spiritual Beings and could not be seen by men, so the Word and the Holy Spirit were Manifested through Jesus, who could be seen. --- Jesus had the power to do miracles and heal the sick because the Word and the Holy Spirit indwelt Him.

But Jesus was not God. --- He had to be human to shed His blood for the sins of the people, as it says in 2 Corinthians 5:
21 For He made Him (Jesus) who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Again.. if you seperate Jesus.. the Holy Spirit and the Father into seperate spiritual beings..

You have Polytheism.

 

[RobbyEarl]

Again.. if you seperate Jesus.. the Holy Spirit and the Father into seperate spiritual beings..

You have Polytheism.

Nope, Jesus said I only do what I see my Father do. They are three but act in one unit . Much as you do. Because you are a trinity of yourself. We have a mind, body and Spirit. Three in one. Everything that man does is three in one. Wisdom, knowledge and prudence. 3 in 1.

 

[RobbyEarl]

Nope, Jesus said I only do what I see my Father do. They are three but act in one unit . Much as you do. Because you are a trinity of yourself. We have a mind, body and Spirit. Three in one. Everything that man does is three in one. Wisdom, knowledge and prudence. 3 in 1.

I forgot to say that we are created in His image. 3 in 1

 

[fredoheaven]

That is a king sized piece of rationalizing. The Father is greater than the son, according to the Scriptures, period! As I previously posted. Jesus did not become the Son of God /God the Son until documented in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:32, 35.

[SUP]J[/SUP][SUP]n.8:28 "[/SUP]So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me."

Jn.14:28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

[SUP]Jn.17:33 "[/SUP]Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Review my post 471 for the Scriptural facts


Quasar92

I got period and that’s okay because the word of God is not period! Primarily the scriptures composed or contain written letters and letters assembled correctly is/are word/s, phrases and sentence. In English, it has commas and other styles and words were understood with its built in dictionary or in its context or to put it simply it has its own definition in order to be understood. The self-defining words of God require not even an opinion of men. What I have posted is biblically demonstrable. Not just knit picking of verses which you like and not according to its entirety. For Ezra in the Old Testament, “gave the sense” to what he read on the scriptures Nehemiah 8:8. For it was the manner of Apostle Paul, that “he reasoned them out of the scriptures” Acts 17:2. Are we giving a sensible interpretation out of the scriptures? Nay, that’s what Ezra and Apostle did! Or are we just offended because the truth is in God’s words.


Maybe this is the first time you heard of it. Learned from God and not to thine own understanding (Proverbs 3:5-6), acknowledge Him and He shall direct thy paths. God is true and man is a liar. Don’t get me wrong of any men’s title, PhD, DD’s Min.D, these are good but not altogether “greater than” His words. Surely, those who rely to these titles of men more than scriptures don’t really understand that even “…men of high degree are a lie…” Psalms 62:9. And numerous of them are found to be false witnesses “…such as that breath out cruelty.” Psalms 27:12

This might unnecessary but one thing is that you are giving us an Eisegesis for Jesus did not “BECOME” the Son of God/God the Son until documented in Matthew 1:20 and in Luke 1:32, 35 as you bring it again and again and again, over and over and over again. This is the twist/tweak of everything in your belief system. Nothing in the Bible Jesus has ever “become” the Son of God/God the Son. You can now put everything out and pull all your books, commentaries and other authorities to prove your “ALTERATION” “MODIFICATION” “CORRUPTION” ”EMENDATION” “ VARIATION”, “EDITION” “REVISION” “YOUR OWN VERSION/OPINION” etc. but one thing is sure God’s word still remains pure and unadulterated, unaltered, entire, perfect Scriptures.

Most anti-Trinitarian modus operandi is to put down our Saviour. The modus is to put doubts on the Word of God regarding many proof texts of the full deity of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ. This is done by a simple “alteration” which changes the meaning of the text. Even Arius at first somehow believed the Trinity but ultimately rejected it.

PEACE