Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?

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bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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You said the following rba, "Isaiah 43..."I AM THE LORD, AND BESIDE ME THERE IS NO SAVIOR"...Acts Chapter 9: And Saul (Apostle Paul).asked: "WHO ART THOU LORD"? and the voice from heaven said: "I.AM JESUS, WHOM THOU PERSECUTEST....."

So here bluto.we see THE LORD is declaring himself as JESUS. he also stated: "I AM JESUS"
He is not only the great IAM from the Old Testament, but The "Father" as well as the "Son" have the SAME NAME. Acts 4 verse 12/ Isaiah 43 declares He is the Only Savior. So that makes the Father as well as the Son, One and the very same LORD..GOD..SAVIOR! Thank God for THE TRUTH FROM SCRIPTURE.!!

And your right, Jesus is the great, "I AM" at Exodus 3:14. And btw, when Moses ask the question at Exodus 3:13, "What is His name?" God said, " I AM" which is not His name because saying "I AM" means that He/God exist. And the point Jesus was making at John 8:58 is that He was the eternal God incarnate that exist.

Your right again when you say, "Both the Father and the Son are the one "Savior" and the One God. However, let me be clear that Jesus Christ is "NOT" the person of God the Father and God the Father is not the person of Jesus Christ. They are the one God in nature and essence. Just like your not the person of your mother or father but your one in nature/essence with them which is "human."

So rba, what's the problem your having with me? What have I stated that is not "Biblical" or goes against Trinitarianism? What's wrong with being "a hard core Trinitarian?" :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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John 14:28
"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Mark 13:32
"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Mark 10:37-40
37 They replied, “Let one of us sit at your right and the other at your left in your glory.”(AO)
38 “You don’t know what you are asking,”(AP) Jesus said. “Can you drink the cup(AQ) I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?”(AR)
39 “We can,” they answered.
Jesus said to them, “You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with,(AS) 40 but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared.”

Luke 22:42
"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

Okay let me teach you what those verses are talking about.

John 14:28 is absolutely true, because it is talking about their distinctively different INDIVIDUAL ROLES within that Triune GODhead. AND while their Roles are distinctively different, they remain absolutely co-equal in DEITY, but not in Role function:

The FATHER's Role is to literally be the Shot Caller of the Triune Deity, HE WILLS WHAT IS TO BE DONE.

The SON's Role is to FUNCTION like a SON and willingly do the WILL of the FATHER every time.

The HOLY SPIRIT's ROLE within that Triune DEITY is to enable us to do the FATHER's WILL, starting with BELIEVE.


They are always co-equally the One and Only ETERNAL GOD.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

YES, because Mark 13:32 is talking about JESUS following the Traditional Jewish Wedding Customs in choosing and marrying a Bride, which includes going to the Father's House to Build a NEW Dwell Place for HIS BRIDE. The Bridegroom, NEVER knew when the Wedding would be because in a Jewish Wedding, the SON could only build the dwelling place, while the FATHER only could inspection it, and point out additional features that HE wanted included. That would usually take 3 or 4 inspections before the FATHER would say to the SON, "It is finished, go get your BRIDE." And the SON would leave immediately to go get HIS BRIDE. A Jewish Bridegroom NEVER CAME NEAR the Bride's old dwelling place, instead HE would send some in His wedding Party on ahead, to CALL OUT THE BRIDE; and Christ has chosen the Archangel for that Honored position. The WEDDING CEREMONY always took place in the NEW DWELLING PLACE, that was built in the Father's house.

So how do we know that Christ is following the Jewish Wedding Traditions. He used an expression that is only used after the BRIDE, (They are called Bride and Groom, from the moment the betrothal is accepted.) drinks from the Betrothal Cup, YES the Cup Jesus passed at the last Supper was the Betrothal Cup. ONLY AFTER THAT EVENT, DID the Bridegroom say:
John 14:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.

That expression was always used after the Bride accepted the Betrothal by drinking from the BRIDEGROOMS Bethrothal Cup. He would say it just before HE left the Bride's old dwelling place, never to return even near it until the NIGHT of WEDDING.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mark 10:37-40, once again, points out the individual functional role differences between the FATHER and SON; that has absolutely NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR CO-EQUALITY AS GOD. The FATHER HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE SHOT CALLER AND ALWAYS WILL BE.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Luke 22:42 simply shows the difference between Jesus' geniune humanness and HIS DEITY that always is Co-equal to GOD. The Human, part of JESUS dreaded what must take place, while the Spiritual part of Jesus, as always, KNEW HE WOULD DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER. I know lots of people do not how flesh can be Deity, AND THAT IS WHERE THEY GO WRONG. The flesh of JESUS is purely Flesh, but the Spirit IN JESUS IS PURELY GOD. He only set aside His Positional GLORY as GOD, to take the role of Human Servant, becoming the perfect sacrifice; while HE ALWAYS RETAINED His eternal Connection with rest of the ETERNAL GOD.

However there is a very brief moment, when many theologians think GOD had to step out of that human body of JESUS, because GOD IS ETERNAL and cannot die, which may have kept the body of Jesus alive, because of HIS presence. Thus GOD, even the Spiritual part of the SON stepped out, so the sins of the whole World could be placed on that Body of Jesus, and Jesus could become the perfect Sacrifice, and DIE ON THAT CROSS.

Mark 15:34 (NRSV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] At three o'clock Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Mark 15:37 (NRSV)
[SUP]37 [/SUP] Then Jesus gave a loud cry and breathed his last.

2 Corinthians 5:19 (ASV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
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Well tell me something quasar since you made the following "foolish" statement, " Jesus IS NOT Almighty God, which is the exclusive title of the Father. The Father and the Son are two very separate entities, as recorded in the following:" Isaiah 9:6 identifies Jesus Christ as "Mighty God" as well as other titles in the verse. Can you tell me if Jesus Christ is a true God or a false god?

Notice the verse says Jesus is "Mighty God," and not "a Mighty God. And to make matters much worse for you please look at Isaiah 10:21, "A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, TO THE MIGHTY GOD." Here you have Jehovah God being identified as "Mighty" God and we all know that He is also identified as "Almighty God" as well at Genesis 17:1 and at other places.

The point of this little exercise is the fact that "Mighty" can't mean less than "Almighty" and "Mighty." In other words, God cannot be almighty and less than almighty AT THE SAME TIME. Not only that but read Matthew 1:23, "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel, which translated means, "God with us." So tell us all here quasar, is this an Almighty God with us or just a Mighty God? What is the difference? :eek: Btw, you should know you've adopted the JW's position on this issue because they say the same thing as you?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

As I previously posted: Yahwey is the original and only God Almighty!

Names and titles of God:



http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/namesofgod.ht


Names and titles of Jesus:


https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/dictionary-of-bible-themes/2203-Jesus-Christ-titles-names


From my post #804 proving it that you call foolish:
No, bluto! Jesus IS NOT Almighty God, which is the exclusive title of the Father. The Father and the Son are two very separate entities, as recorded in the following:
[SUP]
Jn.14:28 [/SUP]“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

[SUP]Jn.17:3 "[/SUP]Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Lk.23:46 "Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last."

Mt.1:20 "But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit."

[SUP]Jn.14:10 "[/SUP]Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.


You remain refuted, bluto!


Quasar92
 
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I don't know what is wrong with the first of the two links in my above post, but I will try to correct it.


Quasar92
 
Aug 19, 2016
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The first link above is faulty. It can be reached as follows:

Put the following in your browser: 900+ names and titles for God Which will bring you to a listings from which there is only one source you cannot miss access9ng it.


Quasar92
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
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From my post #804 proving it that you call foolish:
No, bluto! Jesus IS NOT Almighty God, which is the exclusive title of the Father. The Father and the Son are two very separate entities, as recorded in the following:
[SUP]
Jn.14:28 [/SUP]“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."



Jesus was merely pointing out that WHILE HE WAS HERE AS A MAN his Father was greater than He was because He had emptied Himself (Phil 2.5)
[SUP]
"
[/SUP]Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."


He then pointed out that He would return to the glory He had before the world was.

Lk.23:46 "Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last."

Mt.1:20 "But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit."



[SUP]


Explained above.

Jn.14:10 "
Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.






I am in the Father and the Father in Me is EQUALITY


 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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Ok quasar, I guess I'm going to have to bring out the "big guns" on what you said here: "No, bluto! Jesus IS NOT Almighty God, which is the exclusive title of the Father. The Father and the Son are two very separate entities." I was hoping that you would come to your senses on this issue but I see you continue to want me to read your old "cut and paste" post which offer no incite except to show me that you don't know how to "exegete" Scripture properly.

Now, please look and read what Revelation 1:8 states as clear as a bell. "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, THE ALMIGHTY." Who does that refer to quasar, God the Father or God the Son? And what about Revelation 4:8, "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God THE ALMIGHTY, who was and who is and who is to come." Who's this person quasar, the Father or the Son?

And getting back to Revelation 1 please notice vs7 which comes before vs8, "Behold He is coming with the clounds and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all lthe tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. Evens so. Amen." Again quasar, is every eye going to see God the Father coming or God the Son? And you got the nerve to tell me, "You remain refuted, bluto! :eek: PS: I almost forgot to tell you that I did go to the Bible gateway site and read it. I did notice that the "titles" Mighty God and Almighty God were not on their list, can you tell me why?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
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Placid

Senior Member
Sep 27, 2016
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Hi Fellows,
 
It seems like you have used all of the verses that are found to support your belief, but it is mostly exchanging the same ones back and forth.
 
As I said before, trinitarians believe what they have been taught, and we accept that, --- but if you are interested in history, the faulty trinity doctrine didn't come into being till the 4th century. --- Starting in 325, and being expanded in 381.
--- We get it, --- you are adamant about your faith, --- that is okay for you.

I find it interesting that often in conversation some would raise their voice, --- but sometimes in a forum like this, they would use heavy black or red printing to emphasize their feelings. --- Often though, the ones who are aggitated by what should be an amiable discussion, --- are the ones that feel threatened, or insecure in their faith. --- If some "Believe what they have heard from others," --- it may not be right.
 
In Post 815, the writer said:
Quote: "
People who think Jesus is their Lord and Savior are worshiping another god."

However, Peter said to the Pharisees in Acts 4:
10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
--- You see, that was the way I was saved, by "Believing in God, and accepting Jesus Christ as my Savior and Lord."
 
And about the trinity, --- I had written in Post 801 that "None of the language of trinity is found in Scripture," therefore the question of the topic can be answered.
 
Can the Trinity be Biblically proven? --- And, the answere is "No."
--- But many great theologians believe it and you learned it from them, --- So if you have accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord, then that is what will save you, --- not your belief in a faulty doctrine.
 
 

Placid

Senior Member
Sep 27, 2016
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Hi Bluto,
 
Quote: Then you have in the New Testament John 1:3, "All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." Or how about Colossians 1:16, "FOR BY HIM ALL THING WERE CREATED, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorties--ALL THINGS HAVE BEEN CREATED BY HIM AND FOR HIM." So how are you going to reconcile this placid?
 
 
To follow up from Post 807
From John 1:18
The New American Standard says:
18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
The New International Version says:
18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
The Interlinear Greek English says:
18 God (Theov) no man has seen never; the only begotten God (Theos) the one being in the bosom of the Father, that one declared (him).
 
Now there are certain things established in Scripture that cannot be changed.
Since it says that the Word was "in the beginning with God" --- And that "All things were made through Him (the Word)," --- then each time we come to the term "Through whom all things were made or created," --- it has to refer to the Word, who in John 1:18 is called both "The only begotten God" and "The only begotten Son.

And notice His position, in the NIV:
'is in closest relationship with the Father.'
And the Interlinear Greek 'the one being in the bosom of the Father.'
 
Jesus was the 'begotten son of Mary' and was the 'Son of God' on earth, Galatians 4:
4 "But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons."
 
--- But the Word, the heavenly Son of God in 'the bosom of the Father,' is referred to as "The Son of His love." --- in Colossians 1:
12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.
13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.





Let's go to Hebrews 1 where it says the same about Him (the Word, the Son of God).
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
8 But to the Son He says:
"Your throne, O God (Theos), is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."
 
--- From His position among the heavenly Sons of God, he was 'chosen' from among His companions and "Anointed," and was called God (Theos), the same as in John 1:1 and John 1:18.
 
Jesus was not chosen from among others, and there is no mention of Jesus in Hebrews 1, but we see this in Hebrews 2:

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
--- And Jesus became the High Priest of heaven, 'after the order of Melchizedek' Hebrews 4:
14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
Again it says in Hebrews 6:
19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil,
20 where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.
Placid
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
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New Zealand
If Jesus is God.. you have a trinity.

Why? Because plainly the Father and the Holy Spirit are also fully God.

Full stop :)
 
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bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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Ok placid, nice to hear from you again. I'm still trying to understand from you is on what basis is the trinity faulty as you say? How is it faulty and why is it faulty? And you should know that Terullian coined the word "trinity" around 200 A.D. The word is also used as a word of "convience." Read the following of what I wrote the other day. It's addressed to another poster.

I know markum that you didn't actually study the Trinity. When I say you were "informed" I was being "ironic." Here you are posting about how the Trinity is based on paganism and then when I ask for sources you can't provide them. Instead you tell me to look it up which is the ironic part. Your asking me to prove something to myself that I don't believe is true.

Since your the one making the claim it is you that has to provide the proof of the claim. And here's another ironic thing coming from you? You said you didn't actually study the Trinity so how in the world do you know it's derived from pagan sources? Me on the other hand, gave solid Biblical proof of the Trinity in my first post. In fact, the word "Trinity" is acutally a word of convience. When we talk about the Trinity were talking about God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit which btw the Bible clearly identifies each person of the Trinity as God.

There are lots of words of convience and some of them are called "portmanteau" words. Take the word "sawbones?" This refers to a doctor. Or how about the word, "brunch?" This word is a combination of the words, "breakfast" and the word "lunch." There are thousands of words of convience and like I said the Trinity is one of them.

And that brings me to the third "ironic" thing. Everybody (or should I say most evrybody) makes the assumption that the Trinity has to have come from pagan sources despite the fact that it was Tertullian who "COINED" the word so how do all of you know he came up with the word from pagan sources? You do not know the operation of ones mind or what he was thinking.

All I know is the fact that the Bible makes it clear that there are three and only persons in the Bible who are identified as God in all of the ways that the Bible identifies God; by His names, titles, unique attributes (or nature), unique actions and His worship. This is what I can prove and I will continue to say until I die. :eek: PS: Tertillian coined the word around A.D 200.

Now, I have said the following hundreds of times and that is this: "I do not believe trinitarianism is a REQUIREMENT for salvation. It is the RESUT of salvation. Why do I say that placid? Because you cannot know Jesus Christ and somehow miss the fact that He is God. YOu cannot have experienced the presence of the Holy Spirit of God and somehow miss that He is God. And of course we know that the Father is God. Please read Romans 8:9-11 for proof of what I'm saying.

Furthermore, I am not following what men have taught me but what the Bible has taught me. The Bible makes it crystal clear that there are three and only three persons who are identified as God in all the ways that the Bible identifies God. Remember, I just said there are only three persons who are identified as God and from that Tertullian coined the word "trinity" as a word of convience Please read my very first post of this thread I started.

And btw, the Council of Nicea at 325 A.D. was manily called to combat "Arianism" which teaches that Jesus Christ is a created being and not God. This is what the JW's believe even to this day along with other cults and world religions. And can I ask you if you have ever had any involvement with Mormonism? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
Okay let me teach you . . . . . .

i prefer to let the bible teach me. when mankind starts all their "what Jesus really meant" . . . this is where i stop because this is where all the problems come from.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
Okay let me teach you what those verses are talking about.

John 14:28 is absolutely true, because it is talking about their distinctively different INDIVIDUAL ROLES within that Triune GODhead. AND while their Roles are distinctively different, they remain absolutely co-equal in DEITY, but not in Role function:

The FATHER's Role is to literally be the Shot Caller of the Triune Deity, HE WILLS WHAT IS TO BE DONE.

The SON's Role is to FUNCTION like a SON and willingly do the WILL of the FATHER every time.

The HOLY SPIRIT's ROLE within that Triune DEITY is to enable us to do the FATHER's WILL, starting with BELIEVE.


They are always co-equally the One and Only ETERNAL GOD.
i agree with you on most of this other than triune nature aspects that you have added, notice how in none of the passage triune, trinity, different natures are ever mentioned, you have inserted something external to the passage. if it was needed dont you think Jesus would have mentioned it?


Luke 22:42 simply shows the difference between Jesus' geniune humanness and HIS DEITY that always is Co-equal to GOD. The Human, part of JESUS dreaded what must take place, while the Spiritual part of Jesus, as always, KNEW HE WOULD DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER. I know lots of people do not how flesh can be Deity, AND THAT IS WHERE THEY GO WRONG. The flesh of JESUS is purely Flesh, but the Spirit IN JESUS IS PURELY GOD. He only set aside His Positional GLORY as GOD, to take the role of Human Servant, becoming the perfect sacrifice; while HE ALWAYS RETAINED His eternal Connection with rest of the ETERNAL GOD.
this passage to me shows a difference in the will of the Son and the will of the Father.
the sad thing about being indoctrinated is these passages can only be viewed according to how the doctrines tell you to understand it. this puts a cap on your learning and you will never see it for what it really means. make sense?
 
R

RBA238

Guest
Methinks YOU need to read it again
I've been reading Matthew 28 v 19 for over 29 years. It still says the same thing over and over d over
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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Apparantly rba you dom't even know your promoting a form of "Modalism" which the oneness penticostal cult teaches. You said this: "SO that simply shows The "Father" and The "Holy Ghost/ Holy Spirit" are ONE AND ONLY SPIRIT..NOT..NOT 2 PERSONS.!.
THE SON is God ( The Father) manifested in a Human Form NOT..NOT..NOT..two 'Persons"
(ITMOTHY 3 VERSE 16 KJV)"

What is "Modalism, or Sabellianism?" It is the belief that the three persons of the Trinity (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit) are simply three "roles" of "modes" of the same person. This is why you told me about the "ADMINSTRATION" of God in one of your other post to me.

And I suspect, no let me say I know you do not know what the biggest problem is with modalism? If Jesus Christ is the person of God the Father (as you said) then when Jesus Christ was on that cross who was He calling out to by saying, "Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing" (Luke 23:34). Was He calling out to Himself?

And when Jesus was baptized who's voice said out of heaven "This is my beloved Son, in Thee I am well-pleased?" (Mark 1:11). Do you see the problem you have rba? You also quoted 1 Timothy 3:16, "And by common confession great is the mystery of godliness; "He who was revealed in the flesh, etc" The "He" in the verse is God the Son, not God the Father.

Now, my trick knee tells me that I'm pretty sure your not really a "Modalist" but you have adopted their teaching and I think it is not by design but by not understanding the relationship of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the Bible. When Philip at John 14:8 said to Jesus, "Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Vs9,Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip?" He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, Show us the Father?"

What Jesus Christ said or meant was that He is not the person of God the Father but like 1 Timothy 3:16 which you yourself quoted is that Jesus is the physical manifestation of God the Father. God the Father has no separate manifestion from the Son. The Son is the "ONLY" manifestation and revelation of the Father. What is know of the Father is revealed through the Son. So to see the Son is to see the essence of the Father, (John 1:1,18; John 10:30; John 12:45, Colossians 1:15, and Hebrews 1:3 to name a few verses. In short, this is not hard to understand! :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Bumped for rba. nt
 
Aug 19, 2016
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[/COLOR]


Jesus was merely pointing out that WHILE HE WAS HERE AS A MAN his Father was greater than He was because He had emptied Himself (Phil 2.5)




He then pointed out that He would return to the glory He had before the world was.


[/I]
[SUP]


Explained above.





I am in the Father and the Father in Me is EQUALITY






Review Proverbs 8:22-36 together with Col.1:15, to understand the origin of Jesus, together with the fact, YHWH made it clear in Isa.45:5 and a number of other OT passages, He is the only God. Jesus did not become the Son of God/God the Son until God/YHWH, who is the Holy Spirit AND Father, His title, produced Him by the virgin Mary in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35.

Show me any passage in Scripture supporting your claim Jesus is also YHWH. You labor under false pretenses.


Quasar93
 

williamjordan

Senior Member
Feb 18, 2015
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This will be long, but to understand the full thrust of the argument... I'm sorry, you'll have to read the entire thing.

In 1 Corinthians 8-10 Paul has set up monotheism as this relational, loving commitment to the one God of Israel over against idolatry. According to Paul, the person who “loves God” (1 Cor 8.3) knows that “there is no God but one” (1 Cor 8.4). These statements made by Paul clearly encapsulate the monotheistic essence of Judaism, the Shema (“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might,” Deuteronomy 6.4-5). The allusions made to idolatry, to loving God, and believing that God is one disposes of any uncertainty that Paul is drawing here on the Shema.

Paul picks up on this very point in v. 6, “to us there is but one God, the Father from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” But it is here at v. 6 that Unitarians argue for some kind of ontological distinction between the “one God” (v. 6a), and the “one Lord” (v. 6b), but the nature of that distinction is of some debate between sectarian groups.

On one end of the spectrum, the Witnesses argue that though pagans had “many gods and many lords” (v. 5), lords were considered secondary deities in relationship to the gods, and so Paul is borrowing from that idea in his comparison of Christ the “one Lord,” and the Father who is the “one God.” On the other, Socinians argue that v. 5 distinguishes “gods” as heavenly figures from “lords,” who are their earthly representatives, and that v. 6 likewise distinguishes between the Father as God in contrast to Christ, who is His representative Lord.

It seems particularly odd that the Witnesses would even attempt to argue that “lords” are deities second to the “gods,” particularly in light of their position of Christ as “a god.” Likewise, it also seems awkward that the Socinian would argue for a distinction of “gods” as heavenly figures, and “lords” as their earthly representatives in light of the Unitarian proposition that Jesus did not become “Lord” until his exaltation to the right hand of the Father in heaven.

Further, in v. 5 Paul refers to the “gods” as being both in heaven and on earth (“For although there may be so-called *gods in heaven or on earth*”), which ultimately undermines the Socinian interpretation by showing that Paul was not distinguishing between “gods” in heaven, and “lords” on earth.

However, neither of these arguments really seem to consider, and for obvious reasons, that κύριος (“Lord”) is the divine title emphasized in the Shema, “The Lord our God, the Lord is one.” And in light of the overall context, Paul gives us the Christian self-understanding of how the monotheism of the Jewish Scriptures is to be interpreted in light of the incarnation of Jesus the Messiah, the “one Lord.”

Paul writes in vv. 5-6,

‘Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.” For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.’

Notice the contrast Paul makes: heathen idolaters have “many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords’— yet for us there is one God… one Lord.” In such a context where the Shema is central (idolatry, loving God, God is one), it would be self-defeating for Paul to do anything but embrace together the “one God” and “one Lord” in union, otherwise he would be just as guilty of idolatry as the heathen who had a multiplicity of sovereigns.

Paul’s play on words in v. 6 makes the union of this “one God” and “one Lord” even more apparent. In drawing upon the monotheistic concept that God alone created the universe (Isaiah 44.24, 4 Ezra 3.4), Paul attributes to Christ a role in creation which Jews would commonly attribute to God (Heb 2.10, Rom 11.36). For Paul to include the “one Lord, Jesus Christ” in the divine work of creation places Him squarely in a unique union with the “one God, the Father.” Bauckham explains,

“that God is not only the agent or efficient cause of creation ('from him are all things') and the final cause or goal of all things ('to him are all things'), but also the instrumental cause ('through him are all things') well expresses the typical Jewish monotheistic concern that God used no one else to carry out his work of creation. By Paul's reformulation in 1 Corinthians 8:6, he includes Christ in this exclusively divine work of creation by giving to him the role of instrumental cause.” (God Crucified: Monotheism & Christology, 38-39)

Throughout the argument posed against idolatry in 1 Corinthians 8-10, Paul does not go on to speak about, as one would perhaps expect, the relationship between the Corinthians, and the “one God the Father” over against idolatry. Rather, notice that the argument is about the relationship between the Corinthians, and the “one Lord” Jesus over against idolatry (10.19-22),

“You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?” (1 Corinthians 10.21-22 c.f. Deuteronomy 32.21, Malachi 1.7-12)

The “Lord” that is spoken of here is most naturally taken to refer to Jesus for various reasons:


  1. Up to this point in Paul’s letter it is only Jesus that is referred to as Lord (i.e., “one Lord,” “the Lord of glory,” et al). Piggy-backing this point is that it seems Paul has borrowed the "Lord of glory" epithet from the apocryphal Book of Enoch, where the expression is used only of YHWH (22.14; 25.3; 27.3-4; 63.2; 75.3)
  2. Paul’s utilization of κύριος (“Lord”) for Jesus where he alludes to OT texts involving the Divine Name (1 Cor 1.2 [c.f. Joel 2.32]; 1 Cor 2.16 [c.f. Isaiah 40.13]; 1 Cor 6.11 [c.f. Isaiah 45.25], et al)
  3. Paul uses this language of “the cup of the Lord” later in his letter to the Corinthians where it is Jesus who is the referent (1 Corinthians 11.27-28 c.f. 1 Corinthians 10.16-17, 2 Corinthians 6.15-16)
  4. For Paul to refer to Jesus’ involvement in Israel’s redemptive history makes it clear who the “Lord” is in this passage. According to Paul, Christ is “the rock” (1 Cor 10.4) that accompanied the Israelites in the wilderness, and goes so far to even warn the Corinthians, “We should not test Christ, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes.” There seems to be a connection between testing Christ (1 Cor 10.9), and provoking the Lord (1 Cor 10.22). Additionally, the question raised in 10.22 (“Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy?”) is an allusion to the Song of Moses (Deuteronomy 32.21, “They have provoked me to jealousy with what is no god”), the very place Paul alludes to when he speaks of Christ as “the rock” (c.f. Deut 32.4, 15, 18, 31).
 
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VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
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i agree with you on most of this other than triune nature aspects that you have added, notice how in none of the passage triune, trinity, different natures are ever mentioned, you have inserted something external to the passage. if it was needed dont you think Jesus would have mentioned it?




this passage to me shows a difference in the will of the Son and the will of the Father.
the sad thing about being indoctrinated is these passages can only be viewed according to how the doctrines tell you to understand it. this puts a cap on your learning and you will never see it for what it really means. make sense?

And how do YOU read this:

1 John 2:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, will multiply teachers for themselves because they have an itch to hear something new.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] They will turn away from hearing the truth and will turn aside to myths.
 
Aug 19, 2016
721
3
0
This will be long, but to understand the full thrust of the argument... I'm sorry, you'll have to read the entire thing.

In 1 Corinthians 8-10 Paul has set up monotheism as this relational, loving commitment to the one God of Israel over against idolatry. According to Paul, the person who “loves God” (1 Cor 8.3) knows that “there is no God but one” (1 Cor 8.4). These statements made by Paul clearly encapsulate the monotheistic essence of Judaism, the Shema (“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might,” Deuteronomy 6.4-5). The allusions made to idolatry, to loving God, and believing that God is one disposes of any uncertainty that Paul is drawing here on the Shema.

Paul picks up on this very point in v. 6, “to us there is but one God, the Father from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” But it is here at v. 6 that Unitarians argue for some kind of ontological distinction between the “one God” (v. 6a), and the “one Lord” (v. 6b), but the nature of that distinction is of some debate between sectarian groups.

On one end of the spectrum, the Witnesses argue that though pagans had “many gods and many lords” (v. 5), lords were considered secondary deities in relationship to the gods, and so Paul is borrowing from that idea in his comparison of Christ the “one Lord,” and the Father who is the “one God.” On the other, Socinians argue that v. 5 distinguishes “gods” as heavenly figures from “lords,” who are their earthly representatives, and that v. 6 likewise distinguishes between the Father as God in contrast to Christ, who is His representative Lord.

It seems particularly odd that the Witnesses would even attempt to argue that “lords” are deities second to the “gods,” particularly in light of their position of Christ as “a god.” Likewise, it also seems awkward that the Socinian would argue for a distinction of “gods” as heavenly figures, and “lords” as their earthly representatives in light of the Unitarian proposition that Jesus did not become “Lord” until his exaltation to the right hand of the Father in heaven.

Further, in v. 5 Paul refers to the “gods” as being both in heaven and on earth (“For although there may be so-called *gods in heaven or on earth*”), which ultimately undermines the Socinian interpretation by showing that Paul was not distinguishing between “gods” in heaven, and “lords” on earth.

However, neither of these arguments really seem to consider, and for obvious reasons, that κύριος (“Lord”) is the divine title emphasized in the Shema, “The Lord our God, the Lord is one.” And in light of the overall context, Paul gives us the Christian self-understanding of how the monotheism of the Jewish Scriptures is to be interpreted in light of the incarnation of Jesus the Messiah, the “one Lord.”

Paul writes in vv. 5-6,

‘Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.” For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.’

Notice the contrast Paul makes: heathen idolaters have “many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords’— yet for us there is one God… one Lord.” In such a context where the Shema is central (idolatry, loving God, God is one), it would be self-defeating for Paul to do anything but embrace together the “one God” and “one Lord” in union, otherwise he would be just as guilty of idolatry as the heathen who had a multiplicity of sovereigns.

Paul’s play on words in v. 6 makes the union of this “one God” and “one Lord” even more apparent. In drawing upon the monotheistic concept that God alone created the universe (Isaiah 44.24, 4 Ezra 3.4), Paul attributes to Christ a role in creation which Jews would commonly attribute to God (Heb 2.10, Rom 11.36). For Paul to include the “one Lord, Jesus Christ” in the divine work of creation places Him squarely in a unique union with the “one God, the Father.” Bauckham explains,
“that God is not only the agent or efficient cause of creation ('from him are all things') and the final cause or goal of all things ('to him are all things'), but also the instrumental cause ('through him are all things') well expresses the typical Jewish monotheistic concern that God used no one else to carry out his work of creation. By Paul's reformulation in 1 Corinthians 8:6, he includes Christ in this exclusively divine work of creation by giving to him the role of instrumental cause.” (God Crucified: Monotheism & Christology, 38-39)

Throughout the argument posed against idolatry in 1 Corinthians 8-10, Paul does not go on to speak about, as one would perhaps expect, the relationship between the Corinthians, and the “one God the Father” over against idolatry. Rather, notice that the argument is about the relationship between the Corinthians, and the “one Lord” Jesus over against idolatry (10.19-22),
“You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?” (1 Corinthians 10.21-22 c.f. Deuteronomy 32.21, Malachi 1.7-12)

The “Lord” that is spoken of here is most naturally taken to refer to Jesus for various reasons:


  1. Up to this point in Paul’s letter it is only Jesus that is referred to as Lord (i.e., “one Lord,” “the Lord of glory,” et al). Piggy-backing this point is that it seems Paul has borrowed the "Lord of glory" epithet from the apocryphal Book of Enoch, where the expression is used only of YHWH (22.14; 25.3; 27.3-4; 63.2; 75.3)
  2. Paul’s utilization of κύριος (“Lord”) for Jesus where he alludes to OT texts involving the Divine Name (1 Cor 1.2 [c.f. Joel 2.32]; 1 Cor 2.16 [c.f. Isaiah 40.13]; 1 Cor 6.11 [c.f. Isaiah 45.25], et al)
  3. Paul uses this language of “the cup of the Lord” later in his letter to the Corinthians where it is Jesus who is the referent (1 Corinthians 11.27-28 c.f. 1 Corinthians 10.16-17, 2 Corinthians 6.15-16)
  4. For Paul to refer to Jesus’ involvement in Israel’s redemptive history makes it clear who the “Lord” is in this passage. According to Paul, Christ is “the rock” (1 Cor 10.4) that accompanied the Israelites in the wilderness, and goes so far to even warn the Corinthians, “We should not test Christ, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes.” There seems to be a connection between testing Christ (1 Cor 10.9), and provoking the Lord (1 Cor 10.22). Additionally, the question raised in 10.22 (“Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy?”) is an allusion to the Song of Moses (Deuteronomy 32.21, “They have provoked me to jealousy with what is no god”), the very place Paul alludes to when he speaks of Christ as “the rock” (c.f. Deut 32.4, 15, 18, 31).

Very well said. See my post 471 for the Biblical description of God and origin of Jesus.


Quasar92